The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:38 pm

40for60 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:22 am
FWIW I heard on KFAN that Mond doesn’t know the playbook.
Hey, he knows the playbook at least as well as the Packer LB who read his eyes and nearly picked off that last pass...

:lol:
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:01 pm
Don't want Rick hiring another HC. Please clean house. Starting to think he survives though. He plays the game with ownership well.

The Mond pick displays how disjointed he is / no lack of vision and plan he has to execute. I am so tired of him having no clear vision of what they want to be. Or his HC said fu to him. They needed to be on the same page. Finding a player here and there isn't good if you don't build a team. This is football. Ultimate team sport. Parts need to compliment each other. Rick doesn't do that well imho.

Good post Kapp. On phone and can't fully compile thoughts. Haha.
I think Spielman’s original vision, before Zimmer, was simple.

He knew the Vikings were never going to compete with Green Bay and Rodgers by beating them at their own game. That is, find a quarterback as good as Rodgers. So Rick instead took the route of finding a (so-called) defensive genius who could STOP Rodgers and the Packers.

Thus he hired Mike Zimmer.

And you know, it actually sort of worked at first. The Vikings took two division championships from the Packers in Zimmer’s first four years.

Where this thing got off the rails for these guys, I believe, happened on the practice field in August of 2016. That’s the day Teddy Bridgewater went down with his horrific knee injury.

I am not here to argue the relative merits of Teddy Bridgewater, so please VMB, don’t go there. This is about the vision of Spielman and especially Zimmer.

Teddy was Zimmer’s boy. Loved him like a son. He was young, with some upside, and effective enough to allow what was becoming a truly ferocious defense to win games. In Zimmer’s mind, you didn’t need a HOFer when you had a defense like that. And most importantly, Teddy was CHEAP, leaving more money to build and fortify his defense.

All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.

He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.

So when all was said and done, “the vision” died on that practice field in 2016. Rick and Zimmer have not been on the same page ever since.

Mike Zimmer is not the kind of coach who can adapt. He doesn’t believe in fitting a scheme to the strengths of his players. He believes in finding players who can execute his scheme. When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship. Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted. Add in the salary cap hit and the corresponding loss of flexibility on the defensive side of the ball, and the Rick/Mike relationship was doomed.

This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:28 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm

I think Spielman’s original vision, before Zimmer, was simple.

He knew the Vikings were never going to compete with Green Bay and Rodgers by beating them at their own game. That is, find a quarterback as good as Rodgers. So Rick instead took the route of finding a (so-called) defensive genius who could STOP Rodgers and the Packers.

Thus he hired Mike Zimmer.

And you know, it actually sort of worked at first. The Vikings took two division championships from the Packers in Zimmer’s first four years.

Where this thing got off the rails for these guys, I believe, happened on the practice field in August of 2016. That’s the day Teddy Bridgewater went down with his horrific knee injury.

I am not here to argue the relative merits of Teddy Bridgewater, so please VMB, don’t go there. This is about the vision of Spielman and especially Zimmer.

Teddy was Zimmer’s boy. Loved him like a son. He was young, with some upside, and effective enough to allow what was becoming a truly ferocious defense to win games. In Zimmer’s mind, you didn’t need a HOFer when you had a defense like that. And most importantly, Teddy was CHEAP, leaving more money to build and fortify his defense.

All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.

He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.

So when all was said and done, “the vision” died on that practice field in 2016. Rick and Zimmer have not been on the same page ever since.

Mike Zimmer is not the kind of coach who can adapt. He doesn’t believe in fitting a scheme to the strengths of his players. He believes in finding players who can execute his scheme. When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship. Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted. Add in the salary cap hit and the corresponding loss of flexibility on the defensive side of the ball, and the Rick/Mike relationship was doomed.

This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
That is about as accurate of an assessment as I've ever read on this board. The only part I'm not totally sold on is Cousins' attitude. I think he has just been intimidated into doing whatever Zimmer wanted of him. I think his style of play is exactly what Zimmer wanted of him. I think on one hand he was telling him not to take any chances of turning the ball over at any cost, and then on the other hand he would tell him he has to throw down field and be more aggressive. Like you said, he didn't like any QB since Teddy, and Zimmer put them all in a No-Win situation.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:26 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:28 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm

I think Spielman’s original vision, before Zimmer, was simple.

He knew the Vikings were never going to compete with Green Bay and Rodgers by beating them at their own game. That is, find a quarterback as good as Rodgers. So Rick instead took the route of finding a (so-called) defensive genius who could STOP Rodgers and the Packers.

Thus he hired Mike Zimmer.

And you know, it actually sort of worked at first. The Vikings took two division championships from the Packers in Zimmer’s first four years.

Where this thing got off the rails for these guys, I believe, happened on the practice field in August of 2016. That’s the day Teddy Bridgewater went down with his horrific knee injury.

I am not here to argue the relative merits of Teddy Bridgewater, so please VMB, don’t go there. This is about the vision of Spielman and especially Zimmer.

Teddy was Zimmer’s boy. Loved him like a son. He was young, with some upside, and effective enough to allow what was becoming a truly ferocious defense to win games. In Zimmer’s mind, you didn’t need a HOFer when you had a defense like that. And most importantly, Teddy was CHEAP, leaving more money to build and fortify his defense.

All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.

He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.

So when all was said and done, “the vision” died on that practice field in 2016. Rick and Zimmer have not been on the same page ever since.

Mike Zimmer is not the kind of coach who can adapt. He doesn’t believe in fitting a scheme to the strengths of his players. He believes in finding players who can execute his scheme. When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship. Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted. Add in the salary cap hit and the corresponding loss of flexibility on the defensive side of the ball, and the Rick/Mike relationship was doomed.

This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
That is about as accurate of an assessment as I've ever read on this board. The only part I'm not totally sold on is Cousins' attitude. I think he has just been intimidated into doing whatever Zimmer wanted of him. I think his style of play is exactly what Zimmer wanted of him. I think on one hand he was telling him not to take any chances of turning the ball over at any cost, and then on the other hand he would tell him he has to throw down field and be more aggressive. Like you said, he didn't like any QB since Teddy, and Zimmer put them all in a No-Win situation.
Thank you.

I’m not a Cousins hater. He’s a very skilled and prepared quarterback, which is more than I can say for a lot of guys. I just don’t think he’s much of a leader. What I don’t know is whether Zimmer beat down any leadership qualities he may have had. That certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

If you guys get a chance, read this article written by Doug Pederson called “ How to Build A Super Bowl Winning QB Room.” It’s excellent. His premise is that “the ability to establish a strong and stable quarterback room is the most consequential aspect of achieving success in the NFL.” I don’t know if Pederson is the right guy for the Vikings, but I love what he says about building an offensive identity:
“Doug Pederson” wrote:You have to learn [your quarterbacks’] strengths and weaknesses, then build your system around that. It’s crucial to use their strengths properly to help formulate game plans, change how you handle blitz protection, and influence the changes you make in the run game.
It’s the complete opposite of how Zimmer sees not only his quarterback, but all his players.

Heres a link to this very fine article.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.
My only comment on this is that while Teddy was gone in terms of his ability to play that year and with unknowns on his ability to ever play again, he wasn't technically gone. The team didn't release him and IIRC was even able to trade him eventually when he successfully rehabbed his injury.

If Zimmer loved him so much, wouldn't he have had to agree with that trade, and likewise, wouldn't he have been more visibly upset when the trade went down? I don't recall any strong statements or emotions about that move when it happened. It's possible I missed it, but given how gruff Zimmer can be when he's interviewed, I would think he'd be willing to share his objections if they were strong enough.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.
I wonder if the issue is more the type of QB than the specific QB. You mentioned he didn't like Keenum. I suspect that was because Keenum often went off script and took a lot of chances, chances which Zimmer felt weren't necessary since his defense could keep opposing teams out of the end zone.

Maybe if he liked Teddy, it was because Teddy would play the game exactly how he wanted it played at the QB position more than anything else. Maybe these other QBs, including Cousins, stray from that approach more than anything else. They want to make plays and take some chances, and maybe Zimmer still thinks those aren't necessary if you can play great defense.

I can buy that explanation. Keep games close with the defense, then get some breaks on offense, and away you go. And honestly looking at the results of this season, I'd say that isn't far off from what happened. The first two games came down to offensive and special teams miscues. The defense technically played well enough to win both.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship.
Maybe, but Zimmer signed his extension at the same time Spielman signed his latest one. If Zimmer were that unhappy with any aspect of his ability to compete as the Vikings head coach, he might have just resigned or not extended with the Vikings. It is rare for head coaches to do that given what they're paid, but not unheard of if their intra-team relationships aren't great or there are strong differences of opinion when it comes to how to move forward.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted.
I think Cousins is the ultimate yes man for most of what Zimmer wants. That is even to Cousins' detriment at times. I often wonder if the way Cousins plays so conservatively is Cousins, or what Cousins is being instructed to do. Also, when Cousins is in ultra-conservative check down mode early in games where the Vikings get behind, he often comes out firing it all over the field with urgency later. I wonder if that is caused by Zimmer's unerring belief in his defense being able to stop other teams early and only when the score is getting away from him does Zimmer let up and take the cuffs off Cousins and the offense.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
While I want Cousins gone, Zimmer bears the brunt of the responsibility for the results this team put up this year from where I sit. He thought he had a much better defense than he had. As Stump noted a few times, some of their numbers are actually decent, but in their case the sum of the parts was not greater than the whole. Zimmer wanted to believe that wasn't the case, and he was wrong as the Packers so aptly demonstrated.

I think this also played into his decision to start Mannion. Zimmer doesn't need a QB to make a bunch of plays. He needs a QB to avoid mistakes while his defense shuts the other team down.

In sum, I agree with the thrust of your point - that to Zimmer, being able to play great defense means you don't need an explosive offensive that takes a lot of chances to win, and thus investing substantial resources in a QB isn't necessary. Of course, the team has to be able to play great defense, and while some of the Zimmer teams that made the playoffs could do that, the teams of these last two years have not been those teams.

Zimmer refused to change his approach and that is why he'll pay the price with his job.

It's funny because in some ways, Zimmer and Brad Childress were very similar in their approach. The Childress era also saw a lot of competitive, close games and not-good-enough finishes until a gunslinger QB willing to go off script and take chances showed up. Suddenly, Childress was successful in spite of himself more than anything else. I highly doubt he liked the way Favre played and probably would have loved nothing more than to pigeon hole him into playing on script in the Childress offense, but Favre just did what he did and the team won.

I think the 2017 season with Keenum was similar in a lot of ways. Keenum was a nobody playing for nothing and the Vikings had no viable alternatives to him at that point, so Keenum just played and let the chips fall. Zimmer probably didn't like it but the team won in spite of the head coach and that was also that.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:55 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.
My only comment on this is that while Teddy was gone in terms of his ability to play that year and with unknowns on his ability to ever play again, he wasn't technically gone. The team didn't release him and IIRC was even able to trade him eventually when he successfully rehabbed his injury.

If Zimmer loved him so much, wouldn't he have had to agree with that trade, and likewise, wouldn't he have been more visibly upset when the trade went down? I don't recall any strong statements or emotions about that move when it happened. It's possible I missed it, but given how gruff Zimmer can be when he's interviewed, I would think he'd be willing to share his objections if they were strong enough.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.
I wonder if the issue is more the type of QB than the specific QB. You mentioned he didn't like Keenum. I suspect that was because Keenum often went off script and took a lot of chances, chances which Zimmer felt weren't necessary since his defense could keep opposing teams out of the end zone.

Maybe if he liked Teddy, it was because Teddy would play the game exactly how he wanted it played at the QB position more than anything else. Maybe these other QBs, including Cousins, stray from that approach more than anything else. They want to make plays and take some chances, and maybe Zimmer still thinks those aren't necessary if you can play great defense.

I can buy that explanation. Keep games close with the defense, then get some breaks on offense, and away you go. And honestly looking at the results of this season, I'd say that isn't far off from what happened. The first two games came down to offensive and special teams miscues. The defense technically played well enough to win both.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship.
Maybe, but Zimmer signed his extension at the same time Spielman signed his latest one. If Zimmer were that unhappy with any aspect of his ability to compete as the Vikings head coach, he might have just resigned or not extended with the Vikings. It is rare for head coaches to do that given what they're paid, but not unheard of if their intra-team relationships aren't great or there are strong differences of opinion when it comes to how to move forward.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted.
I think Cousins is the ultimate yes man for most of what Zimmer wants. That is even to Cousins' detriment at times. I often wonder if the way Cousins plays so conservatively is Cousins, or what Cousins is being instructed to do. Also, when Cousins is in ultra-conservative check down mode early in games where the Vikings get behind, he often comes out firing it all over the field with urgency later. I wonder if that is caused by Zimmer's unerring belief in his defense being able to stop other teams early and only when the score is getting away from him does Zimmer let up and take the cuffs off Cousins and the offense.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
While I want Cousins gone, Zimmer bears the brunt of the responsibility for the results this team put up this year from where I sit. He thought he had a much better defense than he had. As Stump noted a few times, some of their numbers are actually decent, but in their case the sum of the parts was not greater than the whole. Zimmer wanted to believe that wasn't the case, and he was wrong as the Packers so aptly demonstrated.

I think this also played into his decision to start Mannion. Zimmer doesn't need a QB to make a bunch of plays. He needs a QB to avoid mistakes while his defense shuts the other team down.

In sum, I agree with the thrust of your point - that to Zimmer, being able to play great defense means you don't need an explosive offensive that takes a lot of chances to win, and thus investing substantial resources in a QB isn't necessary. Of course, the team has to be able to play great defense, and while some of the Zimmer teams that made the playoffs could do that, the teams of these last two years have not been those teams.

Zimmer refused to change his approach and that is why he'll pay the price with his job.

It's funny because in some ways, Zimmer and Brad Childress were very similar in their approach. The Childress era also saw a lot of competitive, close games and not-good-enough finishes until a gunslinger QB willing to go off script and take chances showed up. Suddenly, Childress was successful in spite of himself more than anything else. I highly doubt he liked the way Favre played and probably would have loved nothing more than to pigeon hole him into playing on script in the Childress offense, but Favre just did what he did and the team won.

I think the 2017 season with Keenum was similar in a lot of ways. Keenum was a nobody playing for nothing and the Vikings had no viable alternatives to him at that point, so Keenum just played and let the chips fall. Zimmer probably didn't like it but the team won in spite of the head coach and that was also that.
All I can tell you is that my opinions here are based on reading hundreds of articles and listening to dozens of podcasts. I'm retired, and it's winter. I have little else to do.

And when I read articles and listen to podcasts, I filter for one thing: ACCESS. Does the writer or the host (or guests) have any access to anybody of importance. If not, I put them on ignore. But when you have a Judd Zulgad or a Chip Scroggins or a Tom Pelisserro or a Courtney Cronin or a Chad Graff or an Arif Hasan involved in any way — even if the writer, host or guest has access to THOSE people — I tend to pay attention. Those stories tend to be credible. They're with the Vikings every day. I consider them to be far more credible than the "big boys" ... Ian Rapoport, Adam Schefter, Jay Glazer, etc.

One premise that I think all of us HAVE to accept is that Zimmer loved Teddy like a son. Still does.

Paul Allen, another one who always gets my attention when he speaks, had this to say about Zimmer's relationship with Teddy.
“Mike Zimmer is the biggest Teddy Bridgewater fan I think I’ve ever met in my life,” said Paul Allen, the play-by-play voice of the franchise. “Mike loved Teddy the person, and loved how Teddy played the game, where he’s not gonna kill the game, but he’s probably not gonna explode. But it’s going to let Zim’s defense dictate the tempo. Zim was downtrodden for days after the Teddy situation.”
Zimmer himself said, in 2018 no less, the year they signed Cousins: “I never thought that I’d have another quarterback throughout my career other than him (meaning Teddy).” He's repeated it multiple times.

So we can speculate on Zimmer's feelings about specific strengths or weaknesses of various quarterbacks until we're blue in the face, but the one incontrovertible fact remains: NONE OF THEM WERE TEDDY BRIDGEWATER.

Bradford was too fragile. As you mentioned, Case was too much of a risk taker. And Cousins ... the salary-cap drain whom he begged Spielman not to sign. But again, they weren't Teddy. That was probably enough for Zimmer.

As for letting Teddy go, here's what Chad Graff wrote for The Athletic in 2020.
But the injury derailed the quick path to stardom that it seemed Bridgewater was on with the Vikings. A year and a half later, it stung Zimmer that the team didn’t re-sign the quarterback, but he understood why after the medical staff delivered a bleak outlook on Bridgewater’s long-term prognosis.
The medical staff told Zimmer that Teddy was finished. It's as simple as that.

And the real kicker? Zimmer's quote regarding Teddy's release.
“It was a tough day,” he said of his wife’s passing. “But the sun came up the next day and the world kept spinning.”
The man compared Teddy's release to his wife's dying! You can't love a guy more than that!

This train got off the rails in August of 2016. Of that I have no doubt.

Yes, the Vikings found their way to the NFC Championship game in '17. That season was an absolute blast. An 8-game winning streak, with 11 of the last 12. A defense that was absolutely terrifying. Diggs and Thielen setting the league on fire. A running game that finished 7th in the league despite losing Dalvin Cook for the last 12 games.

Yet Zimmer hated it. Sure, he loved winning. But he hated the way Keenum played, as you said, with nothing to lose. The guy WENT FOR IT, which irritated Zimmer to no end. A nobody, a journeyman, who plays so well that his team wins 8 straight games, is hated by his coach, who won't even name him the unquestioned full-time starter until Week 15 ... even though he was in the MVP conversation!

Case Keenum wasn't Teddy. He didn't play like Teddy, and he didn't act like Teddy. So Zimmer hated him and helped run him out of town. Yes, I'm speculating. But if you can't see that it's incredibly informed speculation, then I don't know what to say. I've researched this 20 ways from Sunday. Relationships in football matter. It's more than just about arm strength and mobility. If your coach can't stand you, then there's not much chance for success.

I wonder sometimes if Zimmer wishes he'd kept Keenum instead of the Vikings signing Cousins. I hope it haunts him. His sour relationship with every quarterback not named Teddy Bridgewater killed a good thing.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by psjordan » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pm

Interesting take on why Rick may stay:

https://apple.news/ANypbHKy5QWqleexAKXgkbA
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by makila » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:35 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:53 pm
makila wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:01 pm
Don't want Rick hiring another HC. Please clean house. Starting to think he survives though. He plays the game with ownership well.

The Mond pick displays how disjointed he is / no lack of vision and plan he has to execute. I am so tired of him having no clear vision of what they want to be. Or his HC said fu to him. They needed to be on the same page. Finding a player here and there isn't good if you don't build a team. This is football. Ultimate team sport. Parts need to compliment each other. Rick doesn't do that well imho.

Good post Kapp. On phone and can't fully compile thoughts. Haha.
I think Spielman’s original vision, before Zimmer, was simple.

He knew the Vikings were never going to compete with Green Bay and Rodgers by beating them at their own game. That is, find a quarterback as good as Rodgers. So Rick instead took the route of finding a (so-called) defensive genius who could STOP Rodgers and the Packers.

Thus he hired Mike Zimmer.

And you know, it actually sort of worked at first. The Vikings took two division championships from the Packers in Zimmer’s first four years.

Where this thing got off the rails for these guys, I believe, happened on the practice field in August of 2016. That’s the day Teddy Bridgewater went down with his horrific knee injury.

I am not here to argue the relative merits of Teddy Bridgewater, so please VMB, don’t go there. This is about the vision of Spielman and especially Zimmer.

Teddy was Zimmer’s boy. Loved him like a son. He was young, with some upside, and effective enough to allow what was becoming a truly ferocious defense to win games. In Zimmer’s mind, you didn’t need a HOFer when you had a defense like that. And most importantly, Teddy was CHEAP, leaving more money to build and fortify his defense.

All of a sudden, Teddy was gone. They knew they’d never survive with Shaun Hill at QB, so they panicked and traded for Sam Bradford. We all know how that turned out — a 5-0 start turned to a 3-8 nightmare down the stretch.

Here’s the thing. Mike Zimmer has never liked another quarterback since Teddy.

He thought Bradford was soft (as did most of us), he couldn’t stand Case Keenum, and he never wanted Kirk Cousins. We know this by his comments during the 2018 Combine, where he basically pleaded with Rick not to spend that kind of money on a QB because it wouldn’t leave money for defense. He came right out and said that the Vikings had won 40 games in four years with defense, and if they spent that kind of money on a QB, he’d end up getting fired.

So when all was said and done, “the vision” died on that practice field in 2016. Rick and Zimmer have not been on the same page ever since.

Mike Zimmer is not the kind of coach who can adapt. He doesn’t believe in fitting a scheme to the strengths of his players. He believes in finding players who can execute his scheme. When Rick Spielman went out and got Kirk Cousins, it was the final straw in an already shaky relationship. Cousins epitomizes the idea of adapting a scheme to fit the player, and he was the polar opposite of what Zimmer wanted. Add in the salary cap hit and the corresponding loss of flexibility on the defensive side of the ball, and the Rick/Mike relationship was doomed.

This dismal 2021 season is the fulfilled prophesy of Mike Zimmer from nearly four years ago. They brought in Cousins, and now Zimmer is going to be fired, just as he predicted. That’s not blaming Cousins, even though his “I just work here” attitude is far from what we should expect from a leader. It’s just the way it is.
Standing back, I think there is some truth to they were aligned originally and went off the rails. That went out the window a long time ago though. I know you aren't defending their actions. We listen to a lot of the same people, it's clear. Haha. : )

It was already coming apart when they were extended. They didn't share a vision any longer yet they got extended. I think organizational vision (any type of company), front office and coaching staff being lock in step, is so important. Ours is far from it. : |

We are gonna find out a lot about the Wilfs this off-season. Comfort and stability are not the same thing.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:11 pm

psjordan wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pm
Interesting take on why Rick may stay:

https://apple.news/ANypbHKy5QWqleexAKXgkbA
Excellent article. Very informative.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by halfgiz » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:19 pm

I would think Zimmer is gone. His coaching has been bad, The coaching staff is pathetic.

Rick I’m not sure what happens with him. It’s anyone’s guess.

Cousins I would like to move on from because of his cap. And his 4 year record with us.
But maybe a decent offensive minded coach could get him playing better.
Zimmer has been the offenses worst enemy.
Never understood were a run first team. But pay a QB a lot of money with a big arm and the receivers to go with it.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:59 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:28 pm

That is about as accurate of an assessment as I've ever read on this board. The only part I'm not totally sold on is Cousins' attitude. I think he has just been intimidated into doing whatever Zimmer wanted of him. I think his style of play is exactly what Zimmer wanted of him. I think on one hand he was telling him not to take any chances of turning the ball over at any cost, and then on the other hand he would tell him he has to throw down field and be more aggressive. Like you said, he didn't like any QB since Teddy, and Zimmer put them all in a No-Win situation.
The irony being that each QB he coached won more games with him as their HC than without.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Texas Vike » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:44 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:26 pm
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:28 pm


That is about as accurate of an assessment as I've ever read on this board. The only part I'm not totally sold on is Cousins' attitude. I think he has just been intimidated into doing whatever Zimmer wanted of him. I think his style of play is exactly what Zimmer wanted of him. I think on one hand he was telling him not to take any chances of turning the ball over at any cost, and then on the other hand he would tell him he has to throw down field and be more aggressive. Like you said, he didn't like any QB since Teddy, and Zimmer put them all in a No-Win situation.
Thank you.

I’m not a Cousins hater. He’s a very skilled and prepared quarterback, which is more than I can say for a lot of guys. I just don’t think he’s much of a leader. What I don’t know is whether Zimmer beat down any leadership qualities he may have had. That certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

If you guys get a chance, read this article written by Doug Pederson called “ How to Build A Super Bowl Winning QB Room.” It’s excellent. His premise is that “the ability to establish a strong and stable quarterback room is the most consequential aspect of achieving success in the NFL.” I don’t know if Pederson is the right guy for the Vikings, but I love what he says about building an offensive identity:
“Doug Pederson” wrote:You have to learn [your quarterbacks’] strengths and weaknesses, then build your system around that. It’s crucial to use their strengths properly to help formulate game plans, change how you handle blitz protection, and influence the changes you make in the run game.
It’s the complete opposite of how Zimmer sees not only his quarterback, but all his players.

Heres a link to this very fine article.

Just got around to reading this piece, Kapp. It's a breath of fresh air compared to how the Vikings have approached the position.

I loved this:
Wolf thought that teams should be looking for quarterbacks every year and saw it as no different from drafting linebackers, safeties, or offensive linemen. You can’t have enough of those positions, and the quarterback position should never be exempt from that.

Right now, lacking a strong backup is an inefficiency that some teams in the NFL have. Some just focus on the starter and fail to put significant resources into their backup.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:37 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:44 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:26 pm

Thank you.

I’m not a Cousins hater. He’s a very skilled and prepared quarterback, which is more than I can say for a lot of guys. I just don’t think he’s much of a leader. What I don’t know is whether Zimmer beat down any leadership qualities he may have had. That certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

If you guys get a chance, read this article written by Doug Pederson called “ How to Build A Super Bowl Winning QB Room.” It’s excellent. His premise is that “the ability to establish a strong and stable quarterback room is the most consequential aspect of achieving success in the NFL.” I don’t know if Pederson is the right guy for the Vikings, but I love what he says about building an offensive identity:



It’s the complete opposite of how Zimmer sees not only his quarterback, but all his players.

Heres a link to this very fine article.

Just got around to reading this piece, Kapp. It's a breath of fresh air compared to how the Vikings have approached the position.

I loved this:
Wolf thought that teams should be looking for quarterbacks every year and saw it as no different from drafting linebackers, safeties, or offensive linemen. You can’t have enough of those positions, and the quarterback position should never be exempt from that.

Right now, lacking a strong backup is an inefficiency that some teams in the NFL have. Some just focus on the starter and fail to put significant resources into their backup.
Honestly, I was pretty much “meh” about Doug Pederson until I read this article. After reading this, I’m of the opinion that I’d be fine if the Vikings hired him.

The circumstances surrounding his exit from Philly worried me a bit, but the more I read about it, the less concern I have. Over time, the truth tends to comes out. And by truth, I’m talking beyond what teams’ PR weenies put out. What you start discovering is that ownership and the GM in Philly are not exactly the best to work for, and that Pederson winning a title in that atmosphere is actually a positive.

If the Vikings go that direction, I’d be fine with it.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by soflavike » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:52 am

If Zimmer really thought Bridgewater was the best QB he had while in Minnesota, that just confirms that he needs to go. I really like Teddy, appreciate his leadership and he went through a nightmare and I get all that, but he was never a Tier 1 QB and never will be. Bradford and Cousins both have vastly superior passing skills with Tier 1 potential. Keenum, while never a top tier guy, was a scrappy guy who managed to get things done. All three were more effective than Teddy.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:06 pm

They need to blow the entire thing up. Zim and Speilman aren't in sync. Zim's early 70s style blows and only has a chance if you have the best D in football and a weak division. Then you can pass 10 times and pound it 40 and try and win 10-9 or some BS like that. As for Speilman just look at our roster. Take the purple glasses off and we don't have much. He's been trying to fix the OL forever and he still hasn't figured it out. It still blows and it comes down to talent. You look at the good teams they all have some top ranked players on their OL. I look at the rankings and we have nothing. We will never win that way. We have a bag of #### right now. Ricks trading away from the talent for nothing is a waste of time and why we have zero depth on this team and few quality starters. Stock piling 3rd, 4th ect.. round picks is not the way to do it. The cream is gone by that time. It's all major projects that need to ride the pine for 3 years before stepping on the field if there lucky. By then there rookie deal is almost up and you got nothing for your effort. It's ok if you have a soild core but we don't have that. On the defensive side there's not much. Hunter is a great player but I don't know if you can risk another 20-30 million dollar contract just to see if he can stay on the field. Our secondary isn't very good. Bunch of older players who's better days are behind them. Dantzler is the only guy worth keeping. He's no sure thing himself and I don't think he has the talent to be a shut down guy. We need DL players. These FAs that we signed was just flushing CAP down the toilet. That's the problem with building through FA. They need to tell these DTs they signed to hit the road. Then they will be FA again. See that's FA in a nutshell. A cast of boarder line stiffs with a few good ones who will be priced 30% above there true value.
Once we get a GM in place and I already posted who I want then we need a HC. I want a guy that has a more offensive view of the game. I'm one of the few who like Cousins and I hope they keep him. It would be different if we had a talented young guy that was ready to step in but we don't. He throws a dam nice ball. Having a crap OL does nothing to help either. We are lucky to have Jefferson but I also give Cousins some credit in that also. He throws the ball. I'd like to see us get back to a 3 WR base set with one back. That's the type of set you can attack with and is the formation I like best. Many things open up. Plus it's a good set to run with. I highly doubt any of these things I would like to see ever happen.
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