Vikings vs. Rams

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8547
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 888

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:17 pm

I haven’t kept a close eye on kendricks but I definitely think he’s having a down year. PFF is ripping him in just about every game grade wise. Barr has been in and out of the lineup. I think part of it is that our DEs aren’t very good against the run outside of Richardson. Wonnum literally gets tossed like a rag doll in the run. I wish they’d give Patrick Jones more burn and get guys like Bower out. I think Jones will eventually be good.

But when you have hunter who is already elite vs the run plus griffen being out, that really hurts.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

CharVike
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 372

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by CharVike » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:55 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:17 pm
I haven’t kept a close eye on kendricks but I definitely think he’s having a down year. PFF is ripping him in just about every game grade wise. Barr has been in and out of the lineup. I think part of it is that our DEs aren’t very good against the run outside of Richardson. Wonnum literally gets tossed like a rag doll in the run. I wish they’d give Patrick Jones more burn and get guys like Bower out. I think Jones will eventually be good.

But when you have hunter who is already elite vs the run plus griffen being out, that really hurts.
I wonder what the future is for Hunter. He's a dam good player. That's a bright spot in the Zim Speilman era and even that has hit a cross roads. I like Patrick Jones also. They basically need to say good bye to Hendricks and Barr.
0 x

StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 472

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:36 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:17 pm
I haven’t kept a close eye on kendricks but I definitely think he’s having a down year. PFF is ripping him in just about every game grade wise. Barr has been in and out of the lineup. I think part of it is that our DEs aren’t very good against the run outside of Richardson. Wonnum literally gets tossed like a rag doll in the run. I wish they’d give Patrick Jones more burn and get guys like Bower out. I think Jones will eventually be good.

But when you have hunter who is already elite vs the run plus griffen being out, that really hurts.
Agreed with you on something twice in one thread, amazing. The investment through the draft on the Dline has been pathetic. You can't always hope to get a stud DE in the 3rd round or later and eventually you will have to invest a 2nd or greater at that position.

It has been a need since 2019 when the Vikings essentially made sure Griffen wouldn't be back in 2020, and not a single 1st or 2nd round pick spent on that spot in either the 2019, 2020 or 2021 drafts. For the most important spot on the defense.

DT has been ignored even worse with 0 3rd round or better picks spent on that spot since we drafted Floyd in 2013. We have essentially been starting backups or rotational DEs at the 3 tech since Floyd went down outside of 2018 and this year.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 516

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:02 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:59 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:52 pm

There is nothing, not one tiny iota of anything selfish about not getting the vaccine. Either you believe it is good for you or you don't. Selfishness has nothing to do with it. Foolish yes. Stop with the selfish crap.
Believe? Now that's crap. Look at the full stadiums. Without the vaccine, this year would be like 2020.
He believes he is better off without the vaccine. I think it's foolish, but there is nothing crap about it. It's what he believes. So far he has been right. He has not contracted COVID or even been exposed to it because he has followed the protocols. To me that's a pain in the #### to do, but he prefers that to getting the vaccine. It's what he believes is best for him. A person standing up for his beliefs isn't selfish. It's an honorable thing to do. If people didn't stand up for their beliefs America would have never been.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 516

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:05 am

CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:55 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:17 pm
I haven’t kept a close eye on kendricks but I definitely think he’s having a down year. PFF is ripping him in just about every game grade wise. Barr has been in and out of the lineup. I think part of it is that our DEs aren’t very good against the run outside of Richardson. Wonnum literally gets tossed like a rag doll in the run. I wish they’d give Patrick Jones more burn and get guys like Bower out. I think Jones will eventually be good.

But when you have hunter who is already elite vs the run plus griffen being out, that really hurts.
I wonder what the future is for Hunter. He's a dam good player. That's a bright spot in the Zim Speilman era and even that has hit a cross roads. I like Patrick Jones also. They basically need to say good bye to Hendricks and Barr.
Who is Hendricks? Do you mean Kendricks? I think he is still very good with PFF is ripping him or not.
0 x

StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 472

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:26 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:05 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:55 pm

I wonder what the future is for Hunter. He's a dam good player. That's a bright spot in the Zim Speilman era and even that has hit a cross roads. I like Patrick Jones also. They basically need to say good bye to Hendricks and Barr.
Who is Hendricks? Do you mean Kendricks? I think he is still very good with PFF is ripping him or not.
PFF hates pretty much every linebacker this year. Kendricks is grading at a 59, which is below average, but that grade is still 22nd among 51 qualifying linebackers. So a below average grade but an above average ranking.

Apparently PFF only thinks there are 2 great linebackers this year: Micah Parson and De'Vondre Campbell.

By far the lowest graded defensive position group in the NFL, which wasn't the case in previous seasons. The 22nd ranked linebacker in 2020 had a 70 grade.

Honestly, PFF grades have been incredibly inaccurate this year (even more so than usual) compared to the actual results on the field.
1 x

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8547
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 888

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:00 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:05 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:55 pm

I wonder what the future is for Hunter. He's a dam good player. That's a bright spot in the Zim Speilman era and even that has hit a cross roads. I like Patrick Jones also. They basically need to say good bye to Hendricks and Barr.
Who is Hendricks? Do you mean Kendricks? I think he is still very good with PFF is ripping him or not.
Yeah getting rid of kendricks is quite extreme. Barr I can understand but you don’t just dump kendricks after one “down” year
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8547
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 888

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:07 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:36 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:17 pm
I haven’t kept a close eye on kendricks but I definitely think he’s having a down year. PFF is ripping him in just about every game grade wise. Barr has been in and out of the lineup. I think part of it is that our DEs aren’t very good against the run outside of Richardson. Wonnum literally gets tossed like a rag doll in the run. I wish they’d give Patrick Jones more burn and get guys like Bower out. I think Jones will eventually be good.

But when you have hunter who is already elite vs the run plus griffen being out, that really hurts.
Agreed with you on something twice in one thread, amazing. The investment through the draft on the Dline has been pathetic. You can't always hope to get a stud DE in the 3rd round or later and eventually you will have to invest a 2nd or greater at that position.

It has been a need since 2019 when the Vikings essentially made sure Griffen wouldn't be back in 2020, and not a single 1st or 2nd round pick spent on that spot in either the 2019, 2020 or 2021 drafts. For the most important spot on the defense.

DT has been ignored even worse with 0 3rd round or better picks spent on that spot since we drafted Floyd in 2013. We have essentially been starting backups or rotational DEs at the 3 tech since Floyd went down outside of 2018 and this year.
Amazing.

I think I’ve mocked a 1st-2nd round DT like the last 3 years on here and they continue to pass.

In terms of our current DTs, it’s so tough to say because I still think Pierce is really good. As for Tomlinson, I just don’t know because I remember many calling for Linvals head after his first year here and then he became dominant. Idk if playing that position in this defense takes some getting use to or what. Or is Tomlinson simply playing out of position? Pierce is a must keep IMO. Tomlinson only has a year left I believe so if we keep him another year so be it.

As for DEs. I’ve always been a huge Patrick Jones fan but don’t feel like he gets enough burn to say so. I’ve been more regularly down on Wonnum although he’s improved as a pass rusher but brutal against the run. I think Jones is very similar in that regard.

I said more than once in the past few years that I honestly think Hunter is not only the most valuable player on this defense but quite possibly on the entire team. Simply because he is elite not just against the pass but also the run. Only other players I would say are elite in multiple categories are JJ and Cook. Maybe Kendricks although he’s been meh against the run this year.

But I honestly believe Hunter is the real MVP of this team and not having him two years in a row is a massive blow to this defense and team in general
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7447
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 617

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingLord » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:26 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:55 am
So are Pierce, Tomlinson, and Kendricks overrated or is it the fault of other players not doing their job? Anyone really looked into the film?
Kendricks has fallen off a bit from the level he's played at the last few years IMHO. He's been exceptional the last 2-3 years. This season he's been more average. I can't fault him for that, but I don't think he's been able to mask some of the deficiencies in the line play in front of him as he might in recent seasons. However, just to put it all in context, he still leads the Vikings defense in total tackles (solo and assisted) by a country mile. He's still very good - just maybe not elite.

Pierce has been surprisingly disruptive in the middle. As Stump noted, he's actually been somewhat of a pass rushing presence coming from the middle, which is not something he was necessarily known for prior to this season. So that is a positive. However, he hasn't been as effective anchoring against the run. He holds his ground fairly well, but hasn't been able to collapse the lanes on either side of him as you'd ideally like your DTs to do. I don't know if that has to do with the injury he suffered earlier in the season.

Tomlinson is not terrible for the most part, but he also has made precious few plays and I've seen that against multiple different offensive lines. He has not been an impact player on defense. Maybe he wasn't brought in to be an impact player, but IIRC I was pretty excited when they signed him as I thought he would be more of an upgrade than he has been.

To me, the biggest problem with the run defense isn't the talent on defense - it's the lack of fundamentals. The Vikings have the talent to be better against the run than they have been, but they've been gambling more than they need to some of the time trying to make a play, and other times they are simply losing awareness and allowing themselves to get sucked out of position. It's more the details are being missed than they are being outright beaten. This has been true at all levels of the defense all year, much like the offense and special teams. When they play well, they can play at a very high level and probably as well as any other team in the league. They just don't do that consistently.
1 x

CharVike
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 372

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by CharVike » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:03 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:26 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:05 am

Who is Hendricks? Do you mean Kendricks? I think he is still very good with PFF is ripping him or not.
PFF hates pretty much every linebacker this year. Kendricks is grading at a 59, which is below average, but that grade is still 22nd among 51 qualifying linebackers. So a below average grade but an above average ranking.

Apparently PFF only thinks there are 2 great linebackers this year: Micah Parson and De'Vondre Campbell.

By far the lowest graded defensive position group in the NFL, which wasn't the case in previous seasons. The 22nd ranked linebacker in 2020 had a 70 grade.

Honestly, PFF grades have been incredibly inaccurate this year (even more so than usual) compared to the actual results on the field.
Parson is a guy the Cowboys hit on big time. Many on the board liked him also. I wasn't sold. He turned the defense around. A dominate player can do that.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7447
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 617

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingLord » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:39 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:03 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:26 am


PFF hates pretty much every linebacker this year. Kendricks is grading at a 59, which is below average, but that grade is still 22nd among 51 qualifying linebackers. So a below average grade but an above average ranking.

Apparently PFF only thinks there are 2 great linebackers this year: Micah Parson and De'Vondre Campbell.

By far the lowest graded defensive position group in the NFL, which wasn't the case in previous seasons. The 22nd ranked linebacker in 2020 had a 70 grade.

Honestly, PFF grades have been incredibly inaccurate this year (even more so than usual) compared to the actual results on the field.
Parson is a guy the Cowboys hit on big time. Many on the board liked him also. I wasn't sold. He turned the defense around. A dominate player can do that.
I liked Parson a lot coming out. He was among a small group of players I thought might even be worth trading up to get, although I'm glad in the end Spielman didn't do that for any of them, including Parson, as I think the Vikings LBs are not the main issue with the defense by any stretch, and while Parson would have made an impact, I don't think he alone could overcome the deficiencies.

The Cowboys did get a gem in Parson, though (although at the time, not everyone agreed it was a good move - https://www.walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades.php. )
0 x

StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 472

Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:08 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:07 pm

But I honestly believe Hunter is the real MVP of this team and not having him two years in a row is a massive blow to this defense and team in general
Agree here again. Prior to Hunter going down, through 7 games, the Vikings were 8th in points per drive. Since then they have dropped to 19th. Not all just because of Hunter, other injuries hit us during that time too, but his going down was by far the biggest blow to the D.
1 x