Vikings vs. Rams

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StumpHunter
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:17 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:58 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:57 am
You are right that the offense can play a role in defensive success, but I would argue if the offense had done its part the Rams O would have been even worse and Stafford would have made even more mistakes. They were able to run it as effectively as they did because they didn't have to become one dimensional to keep up with our O. That changes and it is a good thing for the D, not bad.
But the Rams were one-dimensional most of the game yesterday. Not because they had to be, but because the Vikings defense couldn't stop that one dimension. They got ahead and remained ahead and could run with impunity so why take risks with their starting QB who was clearly not playing at a high level?
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:57 am
From a per drive standpoint, this D is currently sitting at 20th in PPD, which is best in the division. After this week they will likely jump to around 16th and will probably end the season statistically a very average defense. This, after being 8th best 7 weeks in prior to Hunter's injury.
Very average defense. That's great if you are OK with setting that as the bar to clear.

Are you OK with that?

Personally, I'd like them to actually be good enough to put this team into the Superbowl conversation.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:57 am
The D has been bad in stretches, particularly when their top guys were all hurt in the middle of the season, but they seem to have gotten things figured out a bit recently. Unfortunately this righting of the ship on D has coincided with the O sinking fast.
I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion.

They've been terrible at stopping the run all year. The Bears ran it on them. The Rams ran it on them. The Packers will run it on them next week. Same thing pretty much every game and really regardless of who is on the field.

They've been spotty at stopping the pass all year. When they have limited the pass it's been mostly due to pressure on the QB. No pressure and opposing QBs have lit up a passive, often confused secondary that can't defend 50-50 lob passes and leaves opposing receivers wide open down the field on a regular basis.

They've been historically bad giving up points to end both halves. Historically as in the history of the NFL and not just recent history.

They are also chock full of stop-gap vets at many positions who are playing key roles. I can't look at the defense and see a lot of young pillars upon which this defense will be built and grow around.

Anyway, you see what you want to see, but what we'll all be watching in what, 2 weeks or so, is the Vikings players packing up their lockers for the offseason and a bunch of other teams playing meaningful games, including the Packers for the 3rd year in a row as NFC North Champs and likely playing in a 3rd straight NFC Championship game.
Just to clarify a few things. I do not think we should be content with this defense and agree it is not going to get better with all the free agents we will lose next year. The intention of my post was more to point out that the Vikings have issues across the board and the offense people praised for being great is actually just as mediocre as the D. Overall this is a mediocre team that will finish with a mediocre record and instead of firing the GM and HC who built it we are just going to fire the HC.

Also, my opinion on being 8th best in scoring is based on the D being 8th best in scoring through 7 weeks. I am not super concerned about being bad against the run all year if teams are struggling to put up points. Which at one point they were.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:20 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:25 pm
TSonn wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:19 pm


I feel the same way. Couldn't believe it when Smith, Thielen, and Cook were named captains too. Makes all the losing this season way less frustrating at least.
How many games has Cousins missed due to being unvaccinated. To me he was the least likely player on the team to miss time due to COVID due to his strictly following all protocols.
Cousins doesn't go to a bunch of places with unmasked people and it sounds like he is pretty much just spends time with his immediate family outside of work. He does more to prevent himself from getting covid than most other players in the NFL, but he is still selfish because he doesn't get the vaccine?
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:36 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:15 am
Nobody is mistaking yesterday’s defense for the 2017 Vikings. But they played well enough to win. The offense did not.
Had the offense done its part yesterday, you're probably right.

However, I'd argue that had the offense done its part yesterday the Rams approach on offense would have changed from a more conservative one to a more aggressive one.

I didn't really see the Vikings DBs shutting the Ram passing game down when Stafford wasn't throwing interceptions to them inside his 20, and I didn't see the Vikings pass rush getting to him either, so there is little to make me believe the Rams wouldn't have hit them over the top for big plays had they simply attempted them. I recall saying something to the effect of "When is Stafford going to chuck a few 50-50 balls down the sideline"? The Rams never tried it because they didn't need to.

The Vikings defense can't defend the run. All year its been the same story.

They're marginally better against the pass, but make precious few plays on the ball and even fewer plays in contested situations. The stats don't lie. Not in yesterday's game, and not for the season. The Vikings defense is the league's 28th rated defense overall (27th against the pass, 27th against the run). I would argue they were about that bad yesterday, too. The one thing they've done well this year (sack the QB, which somehow they are, or perhaps were, first in the league) they failed to do once yesterday.
So much to unpack here.

First of all, the DBs did a good job against the Rams. Our guys had good coverage on most pass plays, and the stats bear THAT out. Kupp got free for a 37-yard gain in a critical spot, which was bad. But other than that, he had 9 grabs for 72. OBJ did next to nothing, and Tyler Higbee didn’t go off.

As for the pass rush, no they didn’t get sacks. But Stafford was pressured on all 3 of his interceptions, two of which were tipped at the line. It’s not all about sacks.

We did once again stink against the run, but in what way does that imply that McVea would have been more aggressive if we’d somehow stopped the run? He was already too aggressive throwing even though he was having success running, choosing to have Stafford throw 37 times when the guy couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. The Rams got 5.3 yards per attempt through the air while Michel got 4.9 on the ground, yet McVea had Stafford drop back 37 times. If anything, garbage playcalling by McVea kept us in the game.

We stunk against the run, but we were solid against the pass. As you said, the stats don’t lie.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:06 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
First of all, the DBs did a good job against the Rams. Our guys had good coverage on most pass plays, and the stats bear THAT out. Kupp got free for a 37-yard gain in a critical spot, which was bad. But other than that, he had 9 grabs for 72. OBJ did next to nothing, and Tyler Higbee didn’t go off.
I seem to recall a lot of wide open receivers and can't recall many times where Vikings defenders made plays when the ball was in the air. I know they had three picks, but other than the tipped ball all were really poor decisions by Stafford and I don't think he was under a ton of of pressure most of the game. He played poorly.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
We did once again stink against the run, but in what way does that imply that McVea would have been more aggressive if we’d somehow stopped the run? He was already too aggressive throwing even though he was having success running, choosing to have Stafford throw 37 times when the guy couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. The Rams got 5.3 yards per attempt through the air while Michel got 4.9 on the ground, yet McVea had Stafford drop back 37 times. If anything, garbage playcalling by McVea kept us in the game.
Well, if the Rams couldn't move the chains on the ground it follows they would have had to go to the air. As it was, they really didn't.

Most of that 5.3 yardage stat you cited was because most of Stafford's throws were of the short and medium variety, something the Rams could get away with most of the game because they could run the ball at will and they never fell behind. Very little need to take more risk, especially with Stafford already struggling.

I see the 37 passing attempts mostly in the light of complementing the run game and keep the defense somewhat honest rather than any need to take risks.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
We stunk against the run, but we were solid against the pass. As you said, the stats don’t lie.
I guess that sums up the season for this version of the Vikings defense for the most part. When they have played the pass well it was mostly because the front 7 got pressure on the QB. IIRC, the Vikings have some of the lowest-graded DBs in the NFL this year. I believe Breeland and Alexander were among the worst DBs in PFF rankings, Dantlzer and Woods aren't much better, and Smith and Peterson are somewhere in the middle.

I like what Bynum did when he was in there. We haven't seen enough of him, and I wish Zimmer would start him over Woods at least.

I ask you the same question I asked Stump - is this defense good enough? Do you see a lot of cornerstone players on which they can build next year?

I don't. I see a horribly inconsistent unit that doesn't play fundamentally sound at multiple positions. They can flash at times because they have talented players and experience, and yet, for all the potential, they are woefully inadequate at other times. This is something the Packers are going to put on clear display yet again this coming Sunday I suspect.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:23 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:17 pm
Also, my opinion on being 8th best in scoring is based on the D being 8th best in scoring through 7 weeks. I am not super concerned about being bad against the run all year if teams are struggling to put up points. Which at one point they were.
Thanks for clarifying that.

The team just lacks something. They've consistently failed to answer the bell all year. Some of it was bad breaks, but some of it was just lackluster effort coupled with inadequate talent at key positions. The OL problems they have are just inexplicable at this point. They know what kind of QB they have in terms of his escapability in the pocket and how he surveys the field. They know they want to be able to run the ball consistently. And yet, the OL personnel they have just gets abused over and over and over, and if the opposing DL and LB aren't beating them physically, the Vikings players are beating themselves with untimely penalties.

Defensively I see the struggles as just a lack of discipline across the board. I see guys gambling when they don't have to gamble. I see guys chasing ghosts and getting sucked out of position, allowing big plays against. I see oddly conservative play at other times, leaving too much room in front or not enough room in back. Opposing receivers running wide open. Failure to locate the ball on contested throws.

Just undisciplined football.

What's frustrating is, as both Kapp and you point out, they can play really well at other times. The OL can spring the running game. Cousins can go off in the passing game. The defensive line can get to the opposing QB, and the team can keep other teams out of the endzone for long stretches of games.

The thing about those good things is, they're not enough. They're not enough to get the Vikings into the playoffs this year. They're not enough to enable them to consistently win games they have to win. And they're not enough to excite a fan base that is growing increasingly tired of seeing the same mistake-prone and lackadaisical performances repeated over and over.

I'm at the point where I want to see something different, even if that means taking a big step back for a season or two. I want to feel some hope for the future. The current regime, and many of the veteran players on this team, don't give me much.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:43 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:31 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:06 pm


How about him not filling his lanes all game long. How about him always slow to dx the run and that's why the huge holes are happening. The ints look nice but he had a terrible game.
I agree. He never seems to make the right reads. I feel He’s a big part of why the run d is so bad. Need a LB like EJ to blow up runs
He rarely makes plays int he run game behind the LOS. He likes to wait and see on the play and then ends up blocked. I am ready for us to move on from him. Kendricks is a fan favorite but he isn't immune either. Great in coverage, more active at the LOS but he needs to penetrate a bit more as well. The DL is doing it's job for the most part. Usually an edge is set by the DE and the DTs are eating up blockers. Too often, an alley is there where an LB should be and that's where you see these big runs.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by 808vikingsfan » Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:20 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:25 pm

How many games has Cousins missed due to being unvaccinated. To me he was the least likely player on the team to miss time due to COVID due to his strictly following all protocols.
Cousins doesn't go to a bunch of places with unmasked people and it sounds like he is pretty much just spends time with his immediate family outside of work. He does more to prevent himself from getting covid than most other players in the NFL, but he is still selfish because he doesn't get the vaccine?
Preventing has nothing to do with this. I know people who stayed home for 18 months, only left the house 3 times, and caught it. The fact is he's taking a risk of missing games, period. He's thinking of himself and not the team. That's being selfish (not getting into supporting the first responders, society). Just from a team perspective, unvaccinated means he'd miss at the very least, one game. Geez. Doesn't anyone see how missing one game caused the Vikings to get ousted from the playoffs? What if next year, they make a good run only to miss capturing the North, or missing HFA because someone refuses to get a vaccine? It's ridiculous. Cook has a hard enough time playing 16 games, and now at the most critical game of the year (it was basically the Vikings playoff game), he has to miss it because he doesn't want to take a vaccine. Idiot. He doesn't realize that its the vaccine that opened up the stadiums to help pay his salary. Bunch of idiots. and yes, selfish.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:52 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:20 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:25 pm

How many games has Cousins missed due to being unvaccinated. To me he was the least likely player on the team to miss time due to COVID due to his strictly following all protocols.
Cousins doesn't go to a bunch of places with unmasked people and it sounds like he is pretty much just spends time with his immediate family outside of work. He does more to prevent himself from getting covid than most other players in the NFL, but he is still selfish because he doesn't get the vaccine?
There is nothing, not one tiny iota of anything selfish about not getting the vaccine. Either you believe it is good for you or you don't. Selfishness has nothing to do with it. Foolish yes. Stop with the selfish crap.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:56 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:20 pm

Cousins doesn't go to a bunch of places with unmasked people and it sounds like he is pretty much just spends time with his immediate family outside of work. He does more to prevent himself from getting covid than most other players in the NFL, but he is still selfish because he doesn't get the vaccine?
Preventing has nothing to do with this. I know people who stayed home for 18 months, only left the house 3 times, and caught it. The fact is he's taking a risk of missing games, period. He's thinking of himself and not the team. That's being selfish (not getting into supporting the first responders, society). Just from a team perspective, unvaccinated means he'd miss at the very least, one game. Geez. Doesn't anyone see how missing one game caused the Vikings to get ousted from the playoffs? What if next year, they make a good run only to miss capturing the North, or missing HFA because someone refuses to get a vaccine? It's ridiculous. Cook has a hard enough time playing 16 games, and now at the most critical game of the year (it was basically the Vikings playoff game), he has to miss it because he doesn't want to take a vaccine. Idiot. He doesn't realize that its the vaccine that opened up the stadiums to help pay his salary. Bunch of idiots. and yes, selfish.
Selfish is a load of crap. Foolish yes. Selfish no way in hell.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Maelstrom88 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:27 pm

We talk more about covid and pro vax anti vax than football on this board now. Hey guys, remember football?
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:49 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:06 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
First of all, the DBs did a good job against the Rams. Our guys had good coverage on most pass plays, and the stats bear THAT out. Kupp got free for a 37-yard gain in a critical spot, which was bad. But other than that, he had 9 grabs for 72. OBJ did next to nothing, and Tyler Higbee didn’t go off.
I seem to recall a lot of wide open receivers and can't recall many times where Vikings defenders made plays when the ball was in the air. I know they had three picks, but other than the tipped ball all were really poor decisions by Stafford and I don't think he was under a ton of of pressure most of the game. He played poorly.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
We did once again stink against the run, but in what way does that imply that McVea would have been more aggressive if we’d somehow stopped the run? He was already too aggressive throwing even though he was having success running, choosing to have Stafford throw 37 times when the guy couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. The Rams got 5.3 yards per attempt through the air while Michel got 4.9 on the ground, yet McVea had Stafford drop back 37 times. If anything, garbage playcalling by McVea kept us in the game.
Well, if the Rams couldn't move the chains on the ground it follows they would have had to go to the air. As it was, they really didn't.

Most of that 5.3 yardage stat you cited was because most of Stafford's throws were of the short and medium variety, something the Rams could get away with most of the game because they could run the ball at will and they never fell behind. Very little need to take more risk, especially with Stafford already struggling.

I see the 37 passing attempts mostly in the light of complementing the run game and keep the defense somewhat honest rather than any need to take risks.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:23 pm
We stunk against the run, but we were solid against the pass. As you said, the stats don’t lie.
I guess that sums up the season for this version of the Vikings defense for the most part. When they have played the pass well it was mostly because the front 7 got pressure on the QB. IIRC, the Vikings have some of the lowest-graded DBs in the NFL this year. I believe Breeland and Alexander were among the worst DBs in PFF rankings, Dantlzer and Woods aren't much better, and Smith and Peterson are somewhere in the middle.

I like what Bynum did when he was in there. We haven't seen enough of him, and I wish Zimmer would start him over Woods at least.

I ask you the same question I asked Stump - is this defense good enough? Do you see a lot of cornerstone players on which they can build next year?

I don't. I see a horribly inconsistent unit that doesn't play fundamentally sound at multiple positions. They can flash at times because they have talented players and experience, and yet, for all the potential, they are woefully inadequate at other times. This is something the Packers are going to put on clear display yet again this coming Sunday I suspect.
We had 8 passes defended, which I believe was a season high. So if you didn’t see good coverage, I would suggest you simply missed it.

Never once did I say the defense was good enough, which I assume you mean in an overall sense for the season. It’s not a championship defense. But in this game, yes it was good enough to win. The Vikings gave up 359 total yards (just 159 in the second half), which is a shade over what the Rams’ defense averages this season (they rank 15th in yards). In this era of offense, that’s pretty decent. Our defense gave up 23 points (the other 7 came on the punt return). Again, not dominating, but good enough to win.

The offense? Five trips inside the 10 yard line, two touchdowns. Absolutely pathetic.

Where I’ll agree with you is that when the defense needed to stop the Rams from scoring late in the fourth quarter, they failed. As usual.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:08 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:16 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:16 am


Lol you guys are off your rockers. It’s a choice but not a personal one? Uh, what? But yeah Adam f###ing Thielen is a selfish player :roll: The colts are 8-2 in their last 10 games but lost Nelson and Leonard to covid and being unvaccinated. Arguably their two best players. Gotta cut them! Can’t build a cohesive team with those two a-holes. My eyes couldn’t roll back further into my own head
I don't agree with you often, but I do here.

The rules around vaccinated versus unvaccinated players are based on outdated science and are a big reason Covid is spreading so quickly across the NFL. If the NFL tested everyone daily, instead of just the unvaccinated, the spread would have gone down significantly, they know this, yet that isn't their policy. Why? Because it isn't about stopping the spread, it is about optics. If you have a beef with Covid affecting your favorite team, it shouldn't be with the players being infected, it should be with the NFL not doing enough to stop the spread.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by Frozen Rope » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:43 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:08 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:16 am

I don't agree with you often, but I do here.

The rules around vaccinated versus unvaccinated players are based on outdated science and are a big reason Covid is spreading so quickly across the NFL. If the NFL tested everyone daily, instead of just the unvaccinated, the spread would have gone down significantly, they know this, yet that isn't their policy. Why? Because it isn't about stopping the spread, it is about optics. If you have a beef with Covid affecting your favorite team, it shouldn't be with the players being infected, it should be with the NFL not doing enough to stop the spread.
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That’s funny PHP. Happy New Year!🎈
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by 808vikingsfan » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:57 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:56 pm
808vikingsfan wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:54 pm


Preventing has nothing to do with this. I know people who stayed home for 18 months, only left the house 3 times, and caught it. The fact is he's taking a risk of missing games, period. He's thinking of himself and not the team. That's being selfish (not getting into supporting the first responders, society). Just from a team perspective, unvaccinated means he'd miss at the very least, one game. Geez. Doesn't anyone see how missing one game caused the Vikings to get ousted from the playoffs? What if next year, they make a good run only to miss capturing the North, or missing HFA because someone refuses to get a vaccine? It's ridiculous. Cook has a hard enough time playing 16 games, and now at the most critical game of the year (it was basically the Vikings playoff game), he has to miss it because he doesn't want to take a vaccine. Idiot. He doesn't realize that its the vaccine that opened up the stadiums to help pay his salary. Bunch of idiots. and yes, selfish.
Selfish is a load of crap. Foolish yes. Selfish no way in hell.
What is a selfish person?
1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.
Letting down your entire team sounds selfish to me. And yes, foolish too. But whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. Just wanted to let my frustrations out.

Anyways, what is a load of crap is the 2021 Vikings season. Crappy leadership on this team. Need to clean house.
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Re: Vikings vs. Rams

Post by 808vikingsfan » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:59 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:52 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:20 pm

Cousins doesn't go to a bunch of places with unmasked people and it sounds like he is pretty much just spends time with his immediate family outside of work. He does more to prevent himself from getting covid than most other players in the NFL, but he is still selfish because he doesn't get the vaccine?
There is nothing, not one tiny iota of anything selfish about not getting the vaccine. Either you believe it is good for you or you don't. Selfishness has nothing to do with it. Foolish yes. Stop with the selfish crap.
Believe? Now that's crap. Look at the full stadiums. Without the vaccine, this year would be like 2020.
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