Vikings vs Bears

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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by VikingLord » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:27 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:04 pm
For those wondering about Ezra Cleveland, he ended up leading the offense in PFF grade for the 2nd time in two weeks with an 88.6. Darrisaw was 2nd with 81.3.

Cole was the worst on offense at 40.8 as expected. Bradbury wasn’t far behind with a 48.9.

I said during the game these two were a problem last night. Wondering how much longer Zim is really going to sit Wyatt Davis. Maybe until all our guards get hurt….
It is inexplicable, isn't it?

The Vikings need to find a replacement for Bradbury this offseason. He just can't hold up in the middle.

Hard to believe Cole is a better option than Davis at this point. We don't know because Davis hasn't seen the field yet. I'm surprised Zimmer isn't being pressed about this more when he speaks to the media.

Maybe the reason I didn't see Cleveland last night was because he played well. That is usually what happens when an offensive lineman doesn't get noticed. I'm going to have to make a point of watching him these last three games because if the post-game grades are accurate, he's the best OL right now for the Vikings.

Darrisaw just looked rusty and maybe not ready out of the gate for the intensity of Quinn. He seemed to settle down more as the game went on. Hopefully he rounds back into the form he showed right before he suffered his latest injury.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by chicagopurple » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:05 pm

I watched this game with a bunch of Bears fans. We both knew our teams were going nowhere fast. It didnt take long before we all accepted that this game was going to be a comedy of errors, undisciplined play, and poor coaching. The 2021 Bottom Feeders Bowl . We laughed together at how low our teams have fallen. Pretty pitiful football. They at least have some hope at QB but just like the Vikes, management needs a total overhaul or the QB will fail. At this point, we are looking at a total fire sale….
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Purple Reign » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:35 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:24 pm
That last play should have not been a TD. What a load of BS. It's not a catch until he comes down with the ball is my understanding. He was in the air and when he came down the ball was obviously outside of the end zone.
It's called forward progress. It is where he caught the ball before being driven backwards. He doesn't have to have 2 feet down in the end zone.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Purple Reign » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:53 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:51 am
I didn't even know a QB could take a knee on a play like that. I honestly can't recall ever seeing one do that before unless it is a kneel down play. I thought Lynch got flagged for body slamming him.

They should take that rule out though that lets a QB take a knee in a situation like that. He can take a knee immediately after the snap, but if he starts moving with the ball, the option to end the play by simply taking a knee should be over just like the QB can't intentionally ground the ball to get out of pressure either.

Treat it like intentional grounding - if the ball is snapped and the QB starts moving with it, the option to take a knee behind the LOS is over. The QB can slide as a runner, but cannot avoid taking a sack by simply taking a knee.
Actually any player (not just the qb) can give themselves up by taking a knee. And he is not avoiding a sack, it is still ruled a sack. That is totally different than intentional grounding where the qb is trying to save yards by throwing it away. There is no benefit (other than not taking a hit) for taking a knee. Don't see any reason to take that rule out.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Maelstrom88 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:56 pm

I don't think players should be able to slide. Too hazardous to defenders knees. Also the sudden stop you have to make to avoid a QB could damage a ligament. Also I like to see QBs who run get crushed. How dare they?!
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:42 am

Purple Reign wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:35 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:24 pm
That last play should have not been a TD. What a load of BS. It's not a catch until he comes down with the ball is my understanding. He was in the air and when he came down the ball was obviously outside of the end zone.
It's called forward progress. It is where he caught the ball before being driven backwards. He doesn't have to have 2 feet down in the end zone.
I thought he didn’t have complete control until well after he touched the ground. Wouldn’t forward progress happen when he has possession?
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Dmizzle0 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:04 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:42 am
Purple Reign wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:35 pm


It's called forward progress. It is where he caught the ball before being driven backwards. He doesn't have to have 2 feet down in the end zone.
I thought he didn’t have complete control until well after he touched the ground. Wouldn’t forward progress happen when he has possession?
Yea by replay, it didn't look like he didn't get control until about the one yard line.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:52 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:05 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 pm
In regards to the INT he threw, I think he was viewing that as a free play given the obvious tackle/hold on JJ. He threw to where JJ was suppose to be signifying to the ref “hey my guy got held”. I’ve seen QBs do that hundreds of times. It was definitely a blown call by the refs regardless
OK, I'm not a Cousins hater, but he does not get a free pass on this play.

I've watched this play in stop action at least 10 times now. Cousins was looking right at Jefferson the whole time. He saw Jefferson get held. He saw Jefferson get taken to the ground. Yet from the time the grab occurred until Cousins stepped and threw, it was nearly 3 full seconds.

Take a look at this screenshot. Jefferson is down. Cousins is looking right at him and hasn't thrown the ball yet.

Image

This is absolutely inexplicable. It's baffling. It makes no sense. If you KNOW your guy is down, why throw it? Holding happens before you throw the ball. So if you see your guy get held — tackled, even — and you haven't thrown the ball yet, then THROW IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! For example, Osborn is open beyond the sticks. Throw it to him!

Then when he finally did throw it, he unleashed the weirdest, floating lob imaginable. Not a throw you would make if you were actually trying to complete the pass.

Honestly, I have no idea what was going through Cousins' mind. I'm not sure anybody ever does. But it was one of the worst interceptions I've ever seen, and that is NOT a knee-jerk reaction to what I saw live.

I would really like to see the all-22 of that play.
No I'm not giving him a free pass. I'm just saying that I'm guessing this was the entire thought process.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:56 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:11 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:51 am


I think this team was getting their @$$e$ handed to them by the Bear defensive line. Cook had literally nowhere to run. On most running plays it seemed he was getting dragged down by a Bear DL, and on the rare plays when there was an actual hole it always seemed like Ogletree or Smith was right there to plug it up immediately. On most passing plays Cousins was under constant duress. Hicks abused Cole all night. I find it almost impossible that Hicks is THAT good and Cole THAT bad, but it was embarrassing for Cole. On the seemingly rare plays where Cousins did have time it seemed like the Bear defenders were all over everyone or Cousins outright missed on the throws. His nicest throws of the night were the two largely uncontested TD passes. Beyond that, it was WOW bad.

So to answer your questions, I think the Vikings were simply outclassed on offense by a really bad defense that either played out-of-their-minds well last night for some reason, or that the Vikings just weren't prepared to play physically or mentally. Bottom line - if you can't control the LOS, you can't do much in terms of creativity.



The defense was largely the same as the one we've seen all year. Give up seemingly 10+ yards per carry on some runs, stuff others cold. Play a little pass defense, but then let wide open guys run free or get easy catches on simple curl patterns. Get some decent pass rush pressure, followed by stretches with no pressure at all.

Maddeningly inconsistent.



I didn't even know a QB could take a knee on a play like that. I honestly can't recall ever seeing one do that before unless it is a kneel down play. I thought Lynch got flagged for body slamming him.

They should take that rule out though that lets a QB take a knee in a situation like that. He can take a knee immediately after the snap, but if he starts moving with the ball, the option to end the play by simply taking a knee should be over just like the QB can't intentionally ground the ball to get out of pressure either.

My concern with the option for a QB to just take a knee is that I can see guys starting to do that if they realize they're about to take a hit and don't have anywhere to go with the ball. Just dip down and if a defensive player either doesn't see it or can't stop their momentum before contact, that's a free 15 yards. Plus, it seems to make it more likely that a defensive player might make contact to the head if the QB is dipping down but not going to the ground, something we saw on the Kendrick's foul where Fields slides but doesn't get his head down. It makes it far more likely that incidental contact to the head will occur and that's also 15 yards on the defense.

Treat it like intentional grounding - if the ball is snapped and the QB starts moving with it, the option to take a knee behind the LOS is over. The QB can slide as a runner, but cannot avoid taking a sack by simply taking a knee.



I think it's the OL. They're just getting overmatched yet again and without an effective OL it's hard for anyone to move the ball. Even the best QBs and RBs struggle without blocking.
Yes, the O-line was terrible.

But guess what. So was the Bears'. Yet Justin Fields, a rookie, managed to escape pressure time after time and make plays downfield. If the Bears weren't so inept in the red zone, they would have blown the Vikings out.

I'm tired of the "it's the O-line's fault" excuse. This line is arguably better than the one Kevin Stefanski had to work with, yet Stefanski managed to figure out a way to mitigate pressure. The piss-poor play of this offense is the fault of the OC, and it's the fault of Cousins and the way he falls apart when pressured.

Klint Kubiak knows his quarterback is a basket case under pressure, yet he does nothing to offset it. The whole thing needs to be blown up.

QUICK EDIT: According to PFF, over the past two weeks, Kirk Cousins is 0-for-18 with 2 interceptions when pressured.

We can use bad O-line play to apologize for the quarterback all we want, but to be THAT bad against pressure is inexcusable. At some point, Kirk has to make a play.
Numbers wise, Cousins has usually been pretty solid in the past when facing pressure. I know it was either last year or in 2019 where he actually had better numbers against pressure than he did with no pressure.

But I've been saying this for weeks, what happened to the play action? Cousins is lights out with play action and we hardly ever utilize it anymore. Especially the boots. The fact that Kubiak isnt drawing more of these up is baffling. When you cant get guys open against a secondary that's depleted because you're running your same vanilla pass offense, I dont feel bad. Klint has to figure that out. The reason Stefanski used play action boots so often is because it got Cousins away from our poor interior play. We still have poor interior play and we arent doing anything about it in terms of scheming.

In regards to the OL, you cant complain about the OL a whole lot this year outside of a guys like Udoh and Bradbury. They have been much improved for the most part. However, Monday night was reallyyyy bad. One of the worst, if not the worst showings yet this year from out interior (minus Cleveland). Bradbury and Cole were train wrecks and couldnt spring Dalvin and couldnt protect Cousins. I get that the OL excuse can be overused a lot but I must say, Bradbury and Cole were a REAL problem Monday night
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:37 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:56 am

Numbers wise, Cousins has usually been pretty solid in the past when facing pressure. I know it was either last year or in 2019 where he actually had better numbers against pressure than he did with no pressure.
I think you might have been dreaming that stat since no QB has better stats when pressured than when they aren't. His best passer rating against pressure in a season came in 2019 when it was 84.9.

He has been better against pressure in the past, but last year and this year he has steadily gotten worse. It is a trend at this point and not a good one.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:56 am
But I've been saying this for weeks, what happened to the play action? Cousins is lights out with play action and we hardly ever utilize it anymore.
2021 Play-Action Percentage: 26.1
2021 Play-Action Percentage: 28.7

We are still running A LOT of play-action, about one less play-action pass per game. I think you need to look elsewhere to excuse your QB's play.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:23 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:37 am

I think you might have been dreaming that stat since no QB has better stats when pressured than when they aren't. His best passer rating against pressure in a season came in 2019 when it was 84.9.

He has been better against pressure in the past, but last year and this year he has steadily gotten worse . It is a trend at this point and not a good one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-best-worst ... 020-season

Maybe you should research your teams QB before speaking and telling other people what to do......

And stop there.... I dont need some stat you manipulated and cherry picked saying how PFF is wrong and you're right. I literally dont care. You're wrong, move on.

2021 Play-Action Percentage: 26.1
2021 Play-Action Percentage: 28.7

We are still running A LOT of play-action, about one less play-action pass per game. I think you need to look elsewhere to excuse your QB's play.
Classic Stump. You leave out the part where I said "especially the boots" and then try to lay a stat down to prove me wrong. Okay? Every time I've addressed the lack of play action, I've referred specifically to the lack of PA boots. Trust me, I dont need you of all people telling me what to do. Thanks though
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:03 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:23 am

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-best-worst ... 020-season

Maybe you should research your teams QB before speaking and telling other people what to do......

And stop there.... I dont need some stat you manipulated and cherry picked saying how PFF is wrong and you're right. I literally dont care. You're wrong, move on.
LOL, what? You said he had better stats when pressured than not and I proved you wrong. As for the article you posted, it is through week 10, and after week 10 things must have gotten dicey for Cousins because he dropped to 12th from #1 in grade, the stat you posted in an attempt to prove me wrong, not a cherry picked one, the one YOU chose says he isn't regressing against pressure. Although if you just look at grade he isn't regressing, he just has always been bad.

And believe me I know you don't care what the facts say if they prove you wrong.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:23 am

Classic Stump. You leave out the part where I said "especially the boots" and then try to lay a stat down to prove me wrong. Okay? Every time I've addressed the lack of play action, I've referred specifically to the lack of PA boots. Trust me, I dont need you of all people telling me what to do. Thanks though
I am not debating the boots, I don't have numbers on those. I am telling you you are dead wrong about the play-action part of your post that I quoted.

Sounds like you are blaming a lack of boots now to excuse your QB failing, something I can't disprove but based on your play-action take, is probably wrong too.

I will keep an eye out on how often we run boots versus not though, and when you are proven wrong yet again I look forward to you moving the goal posts yet again.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Purple Reign » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:37 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:42 am
Purple Reign wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:35 pm


It's called forward progress. It is where he caught the ball before being driven backwards. He doesn't have to have 2 feet down in the end zone.
I thought he didn’t have complete control until well after he touched the ground. Wouldn’t forward progress happen when he has possession?
I'm guessing if it wasn't the last play of the game or if it affected who won the game, it would have been reviewed further and possibly changed. But in this case they just wanted the game to be over and didn't want to go through a lengthy review since it didn't matter anyway.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:29 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:03 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:23 am

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-best-worst ... 020-season

Maybe you should research your teams QB before speaking and telling other people what to do......

And stop there.... I dont need some stat you manipulated and cherry picked saying how PFF is wrong and you're right. I literally dont care. You're wrong, move on.
LOL, what? You said he had better stats when pressured than not and I proved you wrong. As for the article you posted, it is through week 10, and after week 10 things must have gotten dicey for Cousins because he dropped to 12th from #1 in grade, the stat you posted in an attempt to prove me wrong, not a cherry picked one, the one YOU chose says he isn't regressing against pressure. Although if you just look at grade he isn't regressing, he just has always been bad.

And believe me I know you don't care what the facts say if they prove you wrong.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:23 am

Classic Stump. You leave out the part where I said "especially the boots" and then try to lay a stat down to prove me wrong. Okay? Every time I've addressed the lack of play action, I've referred specifically to the lack of PA boots. Trust me, I dont need you of all people telling me what to do. Thanks though
I am not debating the boots, I don't have numbers on those. I am telling you you are dead wrong about the play-action part of your post that I quoted.

Sounds like you are blaming a lack of boots now to excuse your QB failing, something I can't disprove but based on your play-action take, is probably wrong too.

I will keep an eye out on how often we run boots versus not though, and when you are proven wrong yet again I look forward to you moving the goal posts yet again.
Cool story, wanna tell it again? But yeah man I'm really, really looking forward to you watching those play action boots for me, putting your own twist on them, manipulating them to fit your narrative and coming up with some stupid scenario of why I'm wrong just to make yourself look good. Everyone is really looking forward to it Mr. Stat Master.

Or maybe you missed the part above where I said "I dont care". This is the problem, once again me just having a conversation with another member and you just have to stick your weasely little nose in every time. You're obsessed with responding to me. Because I literally cant address anyone on here without you involving yourself every single time. I cant just have a normal conversation with a fellow member without you trolling away. The obsession. is. real.
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Re: Vikings vs Bears

Post by CharVike » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:50 pm

chicagopurple wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:05 pm
I watched this game with a bunch of Bears fans. We both knew our teams were going nowhere fast. It didnt take long before we all accepted that this game was going to be a comedy of errors, undisciplined play, and poor coaching. The 2021 Bottom Feeders Bowl . We laughed together at how low our teams have fallen. Pretty pitiful football. They at least have some hope at QB but just like the Vikes, management needs a total overhaul or the QB will fail. At this point, we are looking at a total fire sale….
What is there hope at QB. He's an option type of QB who will need years before he can even function at the rate Kirk does. Plus is accuracy sucks. He throws the ball everywhere. There's no quick fix for that. People knock Ohio ST and there QBs but it's the NFL GMs who pick guys that have 5th round talent in round one. Like the Haskins stiff. I laughed when he was picked in round one. We were lucky that Field didn't fall to us because trader down would have jumped on him. But he has proven many times that he can't judge QB talent. That will never change. It's a skill he never had and never will have. These GMs get caught up in the hype when every expert states you can't win unless your QB can run. Tell that to Brady and Rodgers. Wait until the Ravens give Lamar the farm and they need to bust up that D they have to pay for it. With an avg D his 4 interception games won't be wins. They might not be able to afford that FG kicker they have who never misses and can kick them from anywhere for wins. Give them a joke like we have who basically if he makes a kick it's like a dream come true. Anything for a win is a lost cause. He'll make one every blue moon.
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