Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:52 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:44 pm
I'm assuming there is a lot more money to be made from a vaccine and constant boosters than a much cheaper treatment option. I do appreciate the level headed and well thought out response however. More than I can say for most people you try to discuss it with. I don't trust any talking heads or mainstream news outlets.
It's hard to say where the $$$ motives come into play in all of this, but I trust the science and I trust the results that independent, even openly antagonistic or skeptical third parties can replicate since the published studies can be analyzed and verified. Anything that meets that level of scrutiny willingly should be something any reasonable person can trust regardless of whether there are monetary incentives behind its development. I think the COVID vaccines clear that bar.

As far as Rodgers goes, the thing that really bugs me is his deception. Joe Rogan is at least willing to tell the truth. I might not understand or agree with him, but he's open and honest and willing to stand by what he believes. Ditto for Cousins, and ditto for you. I can respect people like that.

Rodgers, I can't respect. He believes something strongly enough to act on it, but he's afraid of the consequences of being open about it so he lies about it.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:06 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:52 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:44 pm
I'm assuming there is a lot more money to be made from a vaccine and constant boosters than a much cheaper treatment option. I do appreciate the level headed and well thought out response however. More than I can say for most people you try to discuss it with. I don't trust any talking heads or mainstream news outlets.
It's hard to say where the $$$ motives come into play in all of this, but I trust the science and I trust the results that independent, even openly antagonistic or skeptical third parties can replicate since the published studies can be analyzed and verified. Anything that meets that level of scrutiny willingly should be something any reasonable person can trust regardless of whether there are monetary incentives behind its development. I think the COVID vaccines clear that bar.

As far as Rodgers goes, the thing that really bugs me is his deception. Joe Rogan is at least willing to tell the truth. I might not understand or agree with him, but he's open and honest and willing to stand by what he believes. Ditto for Cousins, and ditto for you. I can respect people like that.

Rodgers, I can't respect. He believes something strongly enough to act on it, but he's afraid of the consequences of being open about it so he lies about it.
He not only lied about it, but he also used the lie to flaunt the protocols set forth by the NFL. That put his teammates, coaches, Packer employees, journalists and everyone else at risk.

The vaccine issue is a tough one. I’m vaccinated, and I believe it’s the right thing to do. I also respect the views of those who don’t. However, Aaron Rodgers is an employee of the NFL, and subject to the rules agreed to by the Players Union. He lied in order to violate those rules. In my opinion, he should be suspended.

Of course, I could be biased.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by VikingLord » Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:49 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:06 pm
...Aaron Rodgers is an employee of the NFL, and subject to the rules agreed to by the Players Union. He lied in order to violate those rules. In my opinion, he should be suspended.
At the very least, Rodgers shouldn't be lionized by Packers fans for his behavior. Whether one agrees that vaccines work well against COVID or agrees that employers have the right to mandate policies to mitigate the affect of COVID on their businesses, it should be pretty easy to agree that someone who lies and misleads others to avoid following rules should not be celebrated for doing so no matter how good the guy throws a football on Sunday.

I think this all comes down to the fact that so far no pro players have suffered severe consequences as a result of getting COVID, which basically means Rodgers is lucky more than anything.

Suspension would have sent the right signal. The fact that the NFL didn't suspend him would make a subsequent lawsuit on behalf of a player that got infected and died even more likely and even more likely to succeed IMHO. The NFL is playing with fire. You put out a policy designed to protect players, coaches and even fans and then when the policy is blatantly violated like that you give the violators a slap on the wrist. That wouldn't look good if someone drags the NFL into a liability case. Not good at all.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by CharVike » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:29 am

Wonnum and O'niel tested both positive and negative on the same day. That is why they didn't practice. There status is up in the air.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by fiestavike » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:50 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:22 pm


Forget the drug companies for a second...

Why do you think the medical and scientific community would not seriously consider and evaluate any proposed preventive or treatment option?

Frankly, it is being seriously considered and evaluated by the medical community. For months, it has been standard for physicians to prescribe Ivermectin, Zinc, Vitamin C, and D. Everyone I know who got covid and has sought treatment has been advised by their physicians to take these things. Everyone I know who works in the healthcare field has been advising these treatments/supplements. The question to me is why are the medical experts being ignored, and why is a false consensus being declared? And why it is being declared by media folks and not medical folks? It's very strange.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by VikingLord » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:50 am
The question to me is why are the medical experts being ignored, and why is a false consensus being declared?
That's not how medical science works, or any science works, for that matter.

Science works when someone proposes a theory (e.g. Ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID), designs and conducts an independent, double blind, verifiable and reproduceable study to provide evidence to support or refute the theory, and then publishes those results where other independent researchers can verify the design and data and reproduce the results on their own.

So when you write that a "false consensus is being declared", that doesn't make sense to me. There is no consensus beyond others validating the results of the original study.

Either those promoting a given course of treatment have gone through those steps and review process or they have not, and if they have not it doesn't matter how many "experts" are recommending a given treatment, it's not a proven treatment.
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:50 am
And why it is being declared by media folks and not medical folks? It's very strange.
This whole notion that there is a "media" out there working in concert to craft some narrative is beyond me.

There are definitely some "media" outlets that have monetary incentives for riling people up and even promoting blatantly false narratives with the goal of getting more attention and advertising dollars.

But the process of validating medical studies has nothing to do with the concept of media "spin". Either something objectively works and can be demonstrated factually and independently or it doesn't. Any media that reports the facts of such studies is doing just that - reporting the facts.

And media that is "reporting" anecdotal evidence or outright promoting "studies" that are in fact not validated, or any medical "expert" who is doing that, should be ignored.

Bottom line - Ivermectin is still a drug. Supplements are still produced by those with profit motives as well. Lots of doctors in this country get what can be considered outright kickbacks from the pharmaceutical industry for prescribing drugs, and just because someone is a licensed doctor doesn't make them a moral person. The vast majority are, of course, but some aren't. As with all consumer transactions, let the buyer beware.

I have yet to read one independent, validated medical study showing either Ivermectin or Hydroxychoroquine have any positive correlation on COVID infection outcomes, either as a prophylactic or to mitigate outcomes after infection. All the "studies" that promoted such claims for either drug have fallen apart upon independent scrutiny. That is simple fact.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by Crax » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:58 pm

CharVike wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:29 am
Wonnum and O'niel tested both positive and negative on the same day. That is why they didn't practice. There status is up in the air.
Sounds like they are all back today
All four #Vikings who missed practice yesterday due to what the team called "not injury related" were back at practice today: D.J. Wonnum, Brian O'Neill, Mackensie Alexander, Chris Herndon.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by fiestavike » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:31 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm


That's not how medical science works, or any science works, for that matter.

Science works when someone proposes a theory (e.g. Ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID), designs and conducts an independent, double blind, verifiable and reproduceable study to provide evidence to support or refute the theory, and then publishes those results where other independent researchers can verify the design and data and reproduce the results on their own.

So when you write that a "false consensus is being declared", that doesn't make sense to me. There is no consensus beyond others validating the results of the original study.

Either those promoting a given course of treatment have gone through those steps and review process or they have not, and if they have not it doesn't matter how many "experts" are recommending a given treatment, it's not a proven treatment.
I'm okay with giving it some credence despite it not being definitively proven. If Doctors are noting better outcomes in their patients anecdotally across a broad number of doctors, it is not proof, but it is evidence, even if in the end it is only effectively evidence of the placebo effect. I don't think the line is proof/trash. Are doctors getting money to prescribe Ivermectin? I don't know.

This whole notion that there is a "media" out there working in concert to craft some narrative is beyond me.

I didn't suggest that. I just noted that its odd. There are certainly ideological and financial components which could be weighed. Journalism has taken a real blow in trying to figure out how to adapt to the new economic models of 1000 channels and the internet.
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by VikingLord » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:40 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:31 pm
I'm okay with giving it some credence despite it not being definitively proven. If Doctors are noting better outcomes in their patients anecdotally across a broad number of doctors, it is not proof, but it is evidence, even if in the end it is only effectively evidence of the placebo effect. I don't think the line is proof/trash. Are doctors getting money to prescribe Ivermectin? I don't know.
As far as scientific studies are concerned, the line is proof/trash. Impressions aren't evidence even if the impressions are broadly observed. If a doctor believes he/she has a useful course of treatment, put it to the test. If a claim fails the test it goes in the garbage.

Since Ivermectin was primarily used as a dewormer for livestock, I doubt many doctors were prescribing it in the first place. Veterinarians, maybe, but not people doctors. That has likely changed now with the COVID claims being made about it, as have the financial incentives around its use.
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:31 pm
I didn't suggest that. I just noted that its odd. There are certainly ideological and financial components which could be weighed. Journalism has taken a real blow in trying to figure out how to adapt to the new economic models of 1000 channels and the internet.
That right there is the issue.

The results of sound clinical trials aren't submitted to CNN or Fox News or someone's Facebook feed for publication. They are submitted to medical and scientific peer-reviewed journals and subjected to some critical analysis and standards before publication. This very process is what cast doubt on some of the early claims about Ivermectin and its efficacy against COVID.

Journalists typically get involved once those studies are vetted and published and their results can begin to impact policy because that's the point where it can begin to impact people's lives.

But that process takes time. It's full of boring and dry technical material and debated by people that use very specific, arcane language. Those things just don't ring the visceral emotional bell in most people and provide the easy answers we all seem to prefer.

Enter the great plague of our era - new age "journalism", which is actually sensationalism wrapped in veneer of credibility. Just don't look at the man behind the curtain (Wizard of Oz reference for those of you who might not have seen that movie)...
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by Crax » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:23 pm

Dalvin Tomlinson now added to Reserve/Covid list. Sounds like he will be missing next game at least
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Re: Dozier moved to Covid19/Reserve list + close contacts

Post by psjordan » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:37 pm

Not sure it really matters, but Patrick Peterson moved to Covid list, will miss Lions game. Might as well let Dantzler get more reps, good or bad.
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