Fire them all

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RandyMoss84
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Re: Fire them all

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:00 pm

I do not know if I want Vikings to promote Patterson, Vikings did that with Frazier and he sucked
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Dmizzle0
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Re: Fire them all

Post by Dmizzle0 » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:04 pm

It just hurts having my hopes up just to be shattered. That loss was embarrassing. Zimmer is known as a defensive minded coach. I guess that means he prefers to watch his defense on the field longer than the offense... :wallbang:
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Re: Fire them all

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:10 pm

Mass firings can’t happen until the end of the season. Gotta have a staff to get through Week 18.

At that point, sure … get a new crew in here. But now I’m about to flip-flop worse than a politician.

The coaching staff won’t matter if Kirk Cousins remains the QB.

I know, I know. I’ve defended him. I thought he had turned a corner. I thought he had gotten past his extreme aversion to taking risks.

At this point, I have to concede that I was wrong.

Kirk Cousins is a paint-by-numbers quarterback. He’s going to make his pre-snap read, and he’s then going to go with that read, no matter what. There’s a stat Next Gen Stats has developed called Risk Tolerance Index. It’s based on the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. Through the first seven weeks of the season, Cousins ranked fifth from the bottom. For Week 8, he was dead last. Given that the Vikings have three really good receivers who get open a lot, that’s a really damning stat. Patrick Mahomes ranks low, too, but he’s got receivers running wide open all over the field.

Opponents know Kirk is going to go through his reads like a robot, and he’s not going to take risks. They lead him right where they want him to go.

Arif Hasan has a tweet where he pulls up an all-22 video of the Vikings on 3rd and 12 against Dallas. He highlights Trevon Diggs, who has the deep third on Cousins’ left. KJ Osborn runs right by him, and Diggs just stands there like he’s waiting for a bus … because he KNOWS based on formation and coverage that Osborn isn’t a primary read, and that Cousins will check it down. Sure enough, Cousins checks down to Conklin about 7 yards short of the sticks, while Osborn just runs free. Another third down fail.

The Vikings need a playmaker at the game’s most important position. Cousins is the ultimate game manager. He’s prepared, he recognizes coverages, and he makes the right reads. But unless it falls within the parameters of those reads, he doesn’t make plays.

I like Cousins. He seems like a good dude, a solid family man, and a guy with solid passing skills. But he’s not a playmaker. As Jay Gruden once said about him: “I can’t scheme everybody open every play.”

Gotta blow it all up, or we’re going to spin our wheels in this mud forever.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by S197 » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:23 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:10 pm
Arif Hasan has a tweet where he pulls up an all-22 video of the Vikings on 3rd and 12 against Dallas. He highlights Trevon Diggs, who has the deep third on Cousins’ left. KJ Osborn runs right by him, and Diggs just stands there like he’s waiting for a bus … because he KNOWS based on formation and coverage that Osborn isn’t a primary read, and that Cousins will check it down. Sure enough, Cousins checks down to Conklin about 7 yards short of the sticks, while Osborn just runs free. Another third down fail.
Here's the tweet for reference: https://twitter.com/ArifHasanNFL/status ... 7444722688

What's even worse is literally anyone on the left side of the field is a better read. Mattison is wide open. Even pre-snap he doesn't even look to his left. Sage Rosenfels did the exact same thing on twitter when Cousins laid an egg against the 49ers in the playoffs. Guys were open downfield and he kept checking it down.

Cousins problem is lack of consistency and poise under pressure. He has great runs where you can see why people believe in him but it's never something you can rely on. What you can rely on, is he reverts back to the mean with games like this. He needs too many stars to align for "good Kirk" to come out.

On a totally random note, since you mentioned Arif Hasan who writes for the Athletic. I just saw a deal on my AMEX where if you spend $35 or more on the Athletic, you get $15 back. You need to logon to your AMEX and see if you have the deal, then add it before buying. May be a long shot but I know several people here read the Athletic. I think a year's subscription is usually $48 so getting it for $33 is a pretty good deal if you have an AMEX card.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by CharVike » Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:42 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:53 pm
makila wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pm


I like the thought process. Why just give Patterson 5 years without conducting interviews with potential candidates? I am all for axing Zimmer now to see what the others can do in place. Although the Leslie Frazier scenario is possible.
Vikings will hire Kellen Moore to train up Kellen Mond.
This is a nice suggestion. The guy has done a tremendous job. Being around Mccarthy isn't a bad thing either. This guy Patterson is a Zim clone. I certainly don't want that again.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:33 pm

I'd just get rid of Cousins. A competent QB can make any coach look good.
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StumpHunter
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Re: Fire them all

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:50 pm

A pretty good write up.
https://purpleinsider.substack.com/p/fi ... ngs-trying

The play calls for a more aggressive offense were there, the execution was not.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by Rhodes Closed » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:33 pm

makila wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Rhodes Closed wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:52 pm
I'm gonna just say instead of firing everyone, just relieve Zimmer of his position, upgrade Andre Patterson, and keep Klint Kubiak on for the rest of the season.

We cannot say that Kubiak for certain is not a good OC when, as should be noted, Zimmer is known for being overbearing with his coordinators, Klint is a 1st year OC, and unlike DeFillipo, has shown actual progress of offensive capabilities, especially in the first half.

I would love for us to be reasonable and play out the rest of the season here under these circumstances. Everyone loves Andre Patterson, and I imagine he'd have the loyalty of all players considering he's Zimmer's de facto #2. So why not give him a shot.

In fact, I say give Patterson five years of a rebuild. Go all out, be honest with the fans and tell us that this team is going to be #### for a while. The Minnesota Wild from 2012-2018 are a perfect example of what the Vikings are becoming: walking mediocrity with good players, but not enough coaching to win properly.

Vikings need to have a 5-step plan here in order to possibly get back to where we want to be as a franchise:

1.) Fire Zimmer, Upgrade Patterson

I love the man, he's given me some of my favorite memories as a coach, but I believe it's time to let him go. This Vikings team is not what it could be under him anymore. Andre Patterson would be an excellent replacement since not only do fans love him, players and execs love him as well. The man has been loyal to the organization since joining and we have to bring him up before another team decides to do so. While yes, it would be another defensive minded coach, he would likely give the offensive coordinator, whether that remain Kubiak (my position) or someone else, free reign on play-calling.

2.) Accumulate Picks

Unfortunately, it may be a reality that we all have to face as fans: rebuild. We're going to have to trade away a lot of key talent to acquire new ones. Yes, unfortunately, what I am hinting as is this: trade Cook, Thielen, Hunter, Smith, Barr, and Kendricks. Trade them and acquire as many early-rounds picks as you can. It's an unfortunate reality we may have to face, trade all our favorite players to acquire younger players. It is a viable rebuilding strategy and I know there are many teams that would be willing to give up king's ransoms for guys like Kendricks, Hunter, and Thielen.

3.) Avoid Free Agent Splashes

In the midst of free agency during our rebuild, we need to avoid making splash signings for big name players. Yes, they would be great for the team in the short term, but they also would cost money, something, if I were rebuilding, I'd be scrambling to save up on for the new corps. So if it happens that someone like Derrick Henry becomes available for whatever reason, we need to hold ourselves back from signing big players. The key here is to sign boring players on the cheap. No, they won't be as great players, but again, we're rebuilding. We *want* to deliberately suck for a while.

4.) Draft Wisely

The NFL Draft is never a sure thing tbh, but what we can do to avoid Draft failures is to trust in our scouts and pick best players available. We need to avoid picking for need if we can help it, and instead naturally build our draft through picking players that are concensus the best. You can never have too many great players on one position, because frankly, if they turn out excellent, you can just flip then for more picks and even players you want as well. Imagine if we had four great wide receivers, all extremely talented. They come at a premium so why not flip one of them to get other position players, no? The key to the draft is to draft the best players available, and don't worry about picking for need.

5.) Tank

We have to tank to get good players as well. And frankly, nobody wants to deliberately lose because it ruins the sportsmanship of the game... but #### that. We're in for the long haul and we want to win longer later than win for now but destitute after. So we lose games. This makes our draft picks more valuable and as we acquire more picks through trading our best players, we become more powerful in essence. We can dominate the draft and the free agent area with high cap (barring dead cap of course, which should go away later in the rebuild), to make the best signings (and safest for free agency) we can as a team: the goal here is to play our cards right and wait for our opportunity before we can finally make bigger moves.

And that's my five step program for how to rebuild the Vikings for 2026.
I like the thought process. Why just give Patterson 5 years without conducting interviews with potential candidates? I am all for axing Zimmer now to see what the others can do in place. Although the Leslie Frazier scenario is possible.
At worst we get another Frazier scenario, which mind you, wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing in the world, because if it doesn't work out after 5 years, we still could have a competent cast of players; which then means it's a matter of finding a solid coach to bring their talents up. If we don't have a good cast of players, hey, no harm done. Just rebuild again.

Best case scenario is we get a Brian Billick or Mike Tomlin scenario.

Keeping Patterson is really not a bad idea. At worst, he sucks, oh well, at best, he's the coach we can hang onto for decades possibly.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by VikingLord » Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:02 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:50 pm
A pretty good write up.
https://purpleinsider.substack.com/p/fi ... ngs-trying

The play calls for a more aggressive offense were there, the execution was not.
It seems crystal clear at this point that there are 2 Kirk Cousins.

Kirk Cousins #1 is patient in the pocket, keeps his eyes downfield, and isn't afraid to take shots even if they don't pan out.

Kirk Cousins #2 is jittery in the pocket, uber-sensitive to real or imagined pressure, and almost eager to get the ball out of his hands as soon as he possibly can.

Is some of that a product of whether he feels like the OL can get the job done pass blocking against a given opponent? Sure, that's a reasonable assumption.

But some of that also seems to be a product of Cousins just deciding he's not willing to take hits whether the OL pass blocks or not. It's almost as if he decides the opponent is capable of getting to him and then that's it - he just wants to get the ball out as quickly as possible to the most open receiver possible and if that guy can make something out of that, great. If not, live to punt it again on the next drive or maybe eek out a field goal attempt.

This is what is so maddening about the guy - he's clearly capable of playing at a high level, but to do that he's got to have the right mindset going into a given game. If he doubts his OL can protect him, pretty much regardless of what might actually transpire in the game, then he's looking to bail quickly.

The worst part of the latter mindset is that everyone seems to know when this is happening. I mean, someone posted that Twitter analysis of the play where Thielen I think literally sprints right by a stationary Trevon Diggs. Diggs makes zero attempt to run deep with the receiver, presumably because he understands there is zero chance Cousins is going to see him, much less attempt what would have been an easy TD.

I can't recall ever seeing something like that. Sure, maybe there are plays where offensive players might slack off because they are decoys or know the ball isn't coming to them, but for a defensive back to do it like that in a prime time nationally-televised away game? Never seen that once. Had Cousins looked that way and thrown the ball there, Diggs would have looked utterly ridiculous and been witheringly criticized for what he did, so for him to do it he had to be very sure there was no chance of Cousins going there. He was right.

Stump, you've been right about Cousins all along. There is simply no way any team can compete for a Superbowl with a QB like Cousins playing like that.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:12 pm

Mike Florio made a great point about Mike Zimmer and the two consecutive timeouts. I’ll paraphrase.

If you are so focused on what you’re doing as the defensive playcaller that you can’t keep your eye on the big picture as the head coach, that’s the kind of thing that gets you fired.

I couldn’t agree more. I mean, they were confused and guys were out of position, so somebody on the sideline yelled, “Call timeout.” So Zimmer did … forgetting that he’d just called one a minute earlier.

It’s obvious that Zimmer can’t handle both roles, but he’s never going to give up calling the defense. Just one of many reasons why he needs to go.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by CharVike » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:13 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:33 pm
I'd just get rid of Cousins. A competent QB can make any coach look good.
Who is this competent QB that is sitting there waiting for us to sign? Goff took a team to the Super Bowl so I would say that's a competent QB right? He isn't making the Lions coach look to good. How about getting a coach that can make any QB look good. Joe Gibbs had success with any stiff he had at QB. Nick Foles won a Super Bowl he made his coach look good. The Bears signed him and that coach didn't look to good. Case made Zim look good so Elway signed him. He didn't make his next coach look to good.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by Norv Zimmer » Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:17 am

The problem isn't Cousins. It is the play calling. I am not sure if that is Kubiaks fault or Zimmer not allowing Kubiak to be risky or call chunk plays. Like a previous poster said quality quarterbacks are not just sitting at the local diner waiting to be signed, they are actually really hard to come by.

If they were to move on from Cousins who would they sign that would be better? Someone who says get rid of Cousins answer me that. Come on name someone.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by Cliff » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:29 am

The problem is special teams. The offense and defense have done enough for the team to be 5-2. Zimmer's style of coaching means a lot of close games. In close games you need good kicking. If this team had a better kicker nobody would even be talking about firing anyone.

With an 80% success rate Greg Joseph is tied for 30th.

This is not a new problem and Zimmer apparently can't fix it.
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Re: Fire them all

Post by CharVike » Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:02 am

Norv Zimmer wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:17 am
The problem isn't Cousins. It is the play calling. I am not sure if that is Kubiaks fault or Zimmer not allowing Kubiak to be risky or call chunk plays. Like a previous poster said quality quarterbacks are not just sitting at the local diner waiting to be signed, they are actually really hard to come by.

If they were to move on from Cousins who would they sign that would be better? Someone who says get rid of Cousins answer me that. Come on name someone.
Nobody has an answer for that. I have yet to hear one poster say get rid of Cousins and here's our star put him in. Cousins blows we all know that. He's up and down. But there are worse guys out there. The NFL overall is lacking QBs. They fly off the draft board. That's been the case since I started following 50 years ago. This game coming up we face what some experts call the best QB in the game Lamar Jackson. The guy couldn't even complete 50% of his passes last week. How is that considered one of the best. That's a bum in my book. He's a yo yo up and down just like our stiff. Great one week sucks the next. Would he lead our squad to the Super Bowl? I doubt it. Our team right now lacks talent. This secondary we have is a joke. Our OL sucks. We have no speed on offense. The problems trickle through out our roster. Now we have Ham in there as a weapon. The guy can't run. How is that a weapon? Why is that guy even running a pass route. We need a guy that can take it to the house or at least be a threat to do that. Ham could have 70 yards open in front of him and get about 5 yards before he is dragged down. Don't waste plays. We could put our backup QB in there Mannion and you know what that would be? Nothing. There are no better options mentioned. Because it don't exist. The Panthers have Darnold. Would he be better?
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Re: Fire them all

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:08 pm

Norv Zimmer wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:17 am
The problem isn't Cousins. It is the play calling. I am not sure if that is Kubiaks fault or Zimmer not allowing Kubiak to be risky or call chunk plays. Like a previous poster said quality quarterbacks are not just sitting at the local diner waiting to be signed, they are actually really hard to come by.

If they were to move on from Cousins who would they sign that would be better? Someone who says get rid of Cousins answer me that. Come on name someone.
This is a tired argument that could be made for both the GM and HC. Finding a great GM and HC isn't easy or the Lions, Jags and Jets wouldn't have sucked for so long.

If the fear of failing stops you from taking a chance at greatness you will never achieve greatness.
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