Cowboys @ Vikings post game

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CharVike
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:33 am

makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:20 am
CharVike wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:14 am

Look at the Cardinals? Why? They were lucky to beat us in there house. They couldn't beat the Packers in there house. Sounds like the same story as we are doing today. They need to start at the top with trader down Rick. He needs to go first and then the rest of his crew will follow. The Chiefs have a current NFL offense with the best young QB in the game. Couldn't even put up a TD this week. You want that? Everybody runs the same offense. I don't see a Joe Gibbs who created the H back to deal with the modern speed rushers. I don't see an Air Coryell type of air attack out there today. We run the Kubesteak attack which is as modern as it gets. It's ahead of it's time really. Our problem is our HC let's the air out once we have a lead. I've seen this opening drive for 7 and then nothing before. Once we get up the breaks are applied. Zim is our OC, DC and HC. The two stiffs we have as coordinators are do nothing but say yes men. They just have a title. This throwing behind the LOS is gut turning. That's basically a hand off that might get a couple yards if it works to perfection. If not perfect then a few yards lost. Wasted play.
The current model the Cardinals are using... young HC with OC background and knows today's offenses paired with a veteran DC who has HC experience. You think the Cardinals coaching staff is the same story we are doing? What?

Yes, I'll take 7-1 (should be 8-0, AJ Green completely lost that game for them) over what we have here.

And what are you talking about the Chiefs? Did I say something about them? What?
Your right 7-1 is much better than us. They did lose to the Pack in their own house regardless of how it was done. They still lost. We do the same. They beat the Rams which is a good W. They have some garbage games coming up. More wins. When we played them we were able to score with our Kubesteak O and so were they with there modern O. But I don't see their O as being something nobody else does. I don't see a totally different style. I mentioned the Chiefs because they have the modern offense. You didn't mention them I did. This term modern offense is a media creation. I don't see every game but I don't see any team running a totally different offense than anybody else. Maybe the Ravens because their QB is also their top rusher. Like a 3 WR offense isn't modern. We did that along time ago as did other teams. It's old time offense. But they are better coached than us I won't argue that. That was proven when they beat us. I would like a younger HC also but I don't see a guy that sticks out right now.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:42 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:50 am
Mothman wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:28 am


He's not the only problem. He's just one of the biggest problems (and the reason they have a below average OC, among many other issues).
I was ready to fire everyone for that Klint hiring two weeks in. It was a complete failure on the part of the HC to not recognize his limitations from an offensive standpoint and by the GM to not go out and find someone with more experience.

You replace Zimmer, hire an offensive minded head coach and you still have an average QB playing behind a below average oline, being managed by an average GM. The Vikings need to blow the whole thing up, and I am very worried Zim will be the goat this offseason while Rick goes out and extends Cousins for 50 million guaranteed over the next 3 seasons.
I’ve been advocating for Spielman and Zimmer to be replaced for years so I understand your concern. Keeping Spielman condemns this team to also-ran status. He, Zimmer and Cousins all should have been replaced when the opportunity arose. Instead, I think their deals were all extended.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:58 am

Here’s perhaps the most embarrassing part of the many embarrassments from last night.
Minnesota was a pathetic 1-of-13 on third downs, but more incredible is this stat from The Athletic's Chad Graff: "After the first possession, Kirk Cousins had eight third-down throws. He didn't pass beyond the sticks a single time."

Dallas, meanwhile, was 7-of-14 on third downs with a first-time starting quarterback against a Zimmer defense that was second in the NFL in third-down defense entering the game.
It’s a chicken-or-egg argument, but what I want to know is this:

Is it the chicken (Cousins) who is afraid to take a chance on a receiver who isn’t open by 8 yards? Or is it the egg (Zimmer) telling the chicken, “Whatever you do, DON’T turn it over”?

The world may never know.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:21 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:58 am
Here’s perhaps the most embarrassing part of the many embarrassments from last night.
Minnesota was a pathetic 1-of-13 on third downs, but more incredible is this stat from The Athletic's Chad Graff: "After the first possession, Kirk Cousins had eight third-down throws. He didn't pass beyond the sticks a single time."

Dallas, meanwhile, was 7-of-14 on third downs with a first-time starting quarterback against a Zimmer defense that was second in the NFL in third-down defense entering the game.
It’s a chicken-or-egg argument, but what I want to know is this:

Is it the chicken (Cousins) who is afraid to take a chance on a receiver who isn’t open by 8 yards? Or is it the egg (Zimmer) telling the chicken, “Whatever you do, DON’T turn it over”?

The world may never know.
A good way to tell is to check out the all-22 to see if there are any open WRs on these plays. If there are wide open WRs and Kirk is missing them, then that's totally on him. If the play has more WRs before the sticks than after them - then it's the conservative playcalling. If the WRs aren't open, then it's most likely Zimmer telling Kirk to be overly cautious.

Source: the entire 2017 season when Zimmer wouldn't commit to Keenum as the starter because he didn't like the risky throws.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:50 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:58 am
Here’s perhaps the most embarrassing part of the many embarrassments from last night.
Minnesota was a pathetic 1-of-13 on third downs, but more incredible is this stat from The Athletic's Chad Graff: "After the first possession, Kirk Cousins had eight third-down throws. He didn't pass beyond the sticks a single time."

Dallas, meanwhile, was 7-of-14 on third downs with a first-time starting quarterback against a Zimmer defense that was second in the NFL in third-down defense entering the game.
It’s a chicken-or-egg argument, but what I want to know is this:

Is it the chicken (Cousins) who is afraid to take a chance on a receiver who isn’t open by 8 yards? Or is it the egg (Zimmer) telling the chicken, “Whatever you do, DON’T turn it over”?

The world may never know.
We know that whomever it is, Zimmer or Cousins, it isn't working.

One other item of note - Cousins doesn't always play like he has against the Browns and Cowboys. There are games where he's winging it beyond the sticks and keeping drives going. But its always an "either-or" with him - he's either doing it or he's not doing it. You don't see Cousins suddenly going conservative in a game the Vikings are comfortably winning, and neither do you see him suddenly going aggressive in a game like the one they lost last night. I take that to be the result of successful defensive scheming against him, knowing his tendencies and pre-snap reads, and using those against him to get him in "checkdown" mode even before the play commences. It's the old rope-a-dope approach on 3rd-and-long where the defense leaves a nice juicy wide open receiver well short of the sticks, knowing very well that certain QBs will take that bait every time and knowing also full well that poor receiver has zero chance of getting to the marker once he catches the ball.

The real shame here is the Vikings have good receivers. If the Vikings were, say, the Bears, I get it. Most defenses can take away their receivers, especially in obvious passing situations. But the Vikings have good receivers. 3 of them, in fact, coupled with a decent TE receiving option. Most defenses should be struggling to take them all away even in obvious passing situations. But nope, Cousins the 10 year vet is still falling for the rope-a-dope every time. Once he doesn't think he's got an obvious receiving option on a given play (based on what I have no idea - maybe pre-snap defensive alignments?), he's going to go to the sure bet and, I guess, walk off the field at that point to live to, what, do the same on the next 3rd down play?

That could be Zimmer's influence too. Cousins could be so afraid of making a mistake because he knows Zimmer is going to come down on him, but exactly what is Mike Zimmer going to do to him? Bench him? And then replace him with who? Cousins literally has nothing to worry about because he's far-and-away the only option at QB and everyone knows it. He's even got a fully guaranteed contract for Christmas-sake. What, exactly, does Cousins have to lose by playing to get past the sticks on every 3rd down at this point? He could probably flip Zimmer off on the sideline and he'd still be the starting QB. And to be honest, who cares if Zimmer gets mad? If the offense is converting on 3rd down and staying on the field and, who knows, maybe actually scoring touchdowns after their first drive a few times, I mean, does Cousins believe Mike Zimmer is going to berate him for that?

THIS is exactly what I've talked about multiple times with player leadership (or the lack thereof) and how critical it is on a team. Cousins just is NOT a great player leader. I think at times he can do it and we've seen times where the offense gets behind him, but he just is not a great or consistent player leader. It doesn't come naturally to him, and, if anything, we see times where he's actively turning guys almost against him. Stefon Diggs is one example. Thielen just walked that same line after yesterday's loss. Cousins has to step it up as a 10 year vet and a default leader on the team by virtue of the position he plays and the money he makes, but he just wilts and that's the ballgame.

Even more depressing when he's outplayed at home by Cooper Rush... That is just a personal black mark.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:12 pm

So Zimmer has not been fired, not surprising
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:19 pm

This just isn't working. I guess the more I think about it, that's it. As a whole it isn't working. They have had the time, support, and resources. It's their coaches, their players, their schemes. This team/front office/coaching staff is just broken.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:33 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:19 pm
This just isn't working. I guess the more I think about it, that's it. As a whole it isn't working. They have had the time, support, and resources. It's their coaches, their players, their schemes. This team/front office/coaching staff is just broken.
Exactly. In the end it doesn't really matter who is at fault. Zimmer is washed and Kirk probably won't ever make it past the divisional round regardless of team/coach. Arguing about it is pretty dumb - hopefully Vikings leadership make a move so we can stop arguing about it.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by 40for60 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:13 pm

I hope Hunter’s injury isn’t bad, but if it is that Slick Rick doesn’t make a last minute trade. Trade deadline is tomorrow.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:22 pm

40for60 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:13 pm
I hope Hunter’s injury isn’t bad, but if it is that Slick Rick doesn’t make a last minute trade. Trade deadline is tomorrow.
I feel bad for Hunter. He missed all last year and now it seems likely he's done for the rest of this year.

If there is a bright side for the Vikings, I believe his renegotiated deal makes it less painful from a salary cap perspective to move on if they decide to go that route, and if they don't his recent injury history should make it less likely he'll be able to command top dollar in free agency, making it more likely they could bring him back on a reasonable deal if they decide to go that route.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:48 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:22 pm
40for60 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:13 pm
I hope Hunter’s injury isn’t bad, but if it is that Slick Rick doesn’t make a last minute trade. Trade deadline is tomorrow.
I feel bad for Hunter. He missed all last year and now it seems likely he's done for the rest of this year.

If there is a bright side for the Vikings, I believe his renegotiated deal makes it less painful from a salary cap perspective to move on if they decide to go that route, and if they don't his recent injury history should make it less likely he'll be able to command top dollar in free agency, making it more likely they could bring him back on a reasonable deal if they decide to go that route.
It is 11.5 million in dead cap to move on after this season. 14 million saved.

I would be worried about losing Hunter, but Collinsworth said Wonnum is a similar type of player as Hunter when he came in for him last night, so nothing to worry about. :roll:
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by psjordan » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:13 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:48 pm
I would be worried about losing Hunter, but Collinsworth said Wonnum is a similar type of player as Hunter when he came in for him last night, so nothing to worry about. :roll:
They ARE similar types of players. Wonnum obviously not as good at this point but on limited opportunities. I have high hopes for him. Then again, Hunter is being paid $72M compared to Wonnum's $4M. Sometimes you take what you can get when the salary cap comes into play.

On another note, is no one concerned about Theilen's agents' tweets from last night?

https://apple.news/ARmQ3DW58QZGh12Of0JkWDw

"The agent, Blake Baratz, said on Twitter during the game that "I represent a lot of Vikings and I cannot watch this. It's painful." That makes their feelings on Minnesota's troubles clear.
Baratz also said "enough is enough" and promised to be "transparent" on Monday, which could foreshadow any number of things coming to light."
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by S197 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:23 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:58 am
Here’s perhaps the most embarrassing part of the many embarrassments from last night.
Minnesota was a pathetic 1-of-13 on third downs, but more incredible is this stat from The Athletic's Chad Graff: "After the first possession, Kirk Cousins had eight third-down throws. He didn't pass beyond the sticks a single time."

Dallas, meanwhile, was 7-of-14 on third downs with a first-time starting quarterback against a Zimmer defense that was second in the NFL in third-down defense entering the game.
It’s a chicken-or-egg argument, but what I want to know is this:

Is it the chicken (Cousins) who is afraid to take a chance on a receiver who isn’t open by 8 yards? Or is it the egg (Zimmer) telling the chicken, “Whatever you do, DON’T turn it over”?

The world may never know.
We have a chicken at QB that panics at phantom pressure and a HC with egg on his face due to horrendous clock management.

I'm sticking with what I wanted last year. The well is poisoned and all of it needs to be dumped out. There's a chance you throw out the good with the bad but I honestly think it's a low probability.

Guys are starting to phone it in. I've never seen Smith care less than on that long Wilson TD. Barr's attempt at Zeke at the end of the game was also pretty weak. Thielen basically called out Zimmer in his post interview. This is different than last year where despite the lack of success, there was still some fight in this team.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by chicagopurple » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:34 pm

Bigger question is , what top tier Head Coach would want to come to this Fire Sale ? No One in their right mind would work under Spielman, you have no OL, a QB that is one step above useless when it counts, etc.....There is no quick fix here. We are looking at a rebuild and that just means more years of futility.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:49 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:13 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:48 pm
I would be worried about losing Hunter, but Collinsworth said Wonnum is a similar type of player as Hunter when he came in for him last night, so nothing to worry about. :roll:
They ARE similar types of players. Wonnum obviously not as good at this point but on limited opportunities. I have high hopes for him. Then again, Hunter is being paid $72M compared to Wonnum's $4M. Sometimes you take what you can get when the salary cap comes into play.

On another note, is no one concerned about Theilen's agents' tweets from last night?

https://apple.news/ARmQ3DW58QZGh12Of0JkWDw

"The agent, Blake Baratz, said on Twitter during the game that "I represent a lot of Vikings and I cannot watch this. It's painful." That makes their feelings on Minnesota's troubles clear.
Baratz also said "enough is enough" and promised to be "transparent" on Monday, which could foreshadow any number of things coming to light."
I read them. Not sure what to make. Don't think it means trade demands personally. Read it as time for coaching change. *shrugs*
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