Cowboys @ Vikings post game

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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:20 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:14 am
makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:32 am
Zimmer isn't the ONLY issue. We need wholesale change. This coaching regime needs to go. I'm tired of Rick's roster he builds too. How much of that is him vs Zimmer? I have no idea. I know our oline issues have remained for a decade. Our lack of WR depth has been there forever. We've wasted high picks on CBs who are elsewhere (yes I know this is likely the Zimmer factor).

ALL the coaching hires are their responsibility. OC sucks again? Same joke of a HC and GM hired him. It's their responsibility. This is how an organization works. You continue to make bad hires, then you are the problem.

Our HC is a mediocre DC in today's NFL who can't manage a game clock to save his life, or situational football. Refuses to accept any responsibility, throws his players under the bus constantly. NFL has moved way past Zimmer now. He peaked 5 seasons ago.

Bring in a young OC who knows current NFL offenses and is more in-tune with his locker room / players as HC. . Hire an experienced DC to run that side of the ball. Since it's the copy cat league....look at the Cardinals. Woah that's painful to type.
Look at the Cardinals? Why? They were lucky to beat us in there house. They couldn't beat the Packers in there house. Sounds like the same story as we are doing today. They need to start at the top with trader down Rick. He needs to go first and then the rest of his crew will follow. The Chiefs have a current NFL offense with the best young QB in the game. Couldn't even put up a TD this week. You want that? Everybody runs the same offense. I don't see a Joe Gibbs who created the H back to deal with the modern speed rushers. I don't see an Air Coryell type of air attack out there today. We run the Kubesteak attack which is as modern as it gets. It's ahead of it's time really. Our problem is our HC let's the air out once we have a lead. I've seen this opening drive for 7 and then nothing before. Once we get up the breaks are applied. Zim is our OC, DC and HC. The two stiffs we have as coordinators are do nothing but say yes men. They just have a title. This throwing behind the LOS is gut turning. That's basically a hand off that might get a couple yards if it works to perfection. If not perfect then a few yards lost. Wasted play.
The current model the Cardinals are using... young HC with OC background and knows today's offenses paired with a veteran DC who has HC experience. You think the Cardinals coaching staff is the same story we are doing? What?

Yes, I'll take 7-1 (should be 8-0, AJ Green completely lost that game for them) over what we have here.

And what are you talking about the Chiefs? Did I say something about them? What?
Last edited by makila on Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:26 am

TSonn wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:16 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:00 am
Really, this one came down to incompetence on offense. At home.

Yeah, the defense should probably have done better. There was some real whack out there and inconsistency on defense reared its ugly head yet again, but the way I saw it the defense did more than enough to win this game had the offense simply been competent. It was not. Not even close, and now they're honestly staring a 3-7 start in the face.

Where is the point when it becomes apparent that Cousins, for whatever reason, just isn't the same player against better teams? And its not like the Cowboys are a great defense, but Cousins just lacks the consistency necessary to play against teams that can scheme him into a certain mentality. Once that happens, forget it, its game over. He'll check it down, hold it too long, second-guess himself all game.

I can't put all the blame on one player in any loss, but Cousins can't perform like this as he does so consistently if the Vikings have any hopes of being a contender. Even on a good team, which this team is not, QB play like that will kill them every time. Surely the Wilfs must see that at this point, as must Zimmer and Spielman.
Kirk admitted that he's not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half and at the end of games.

"I just let Zim handle the timeouts, because I never know quite what the coaches want to do with what they're thinking, a play ahead or what that may be. So I was just gonna let them handle that and call the next play if one came in."

Kirk may very well be part of the problem but he's currently a symptom of Double Timeout Mike.
Where does he say he is not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half or at the end of games? He clearly states he "just let Zim handle the timeouts". HE just lets him handle them. That implies a choice, does it not?
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:30 am

8 third down throws after the first possession. 8 throws before the sticks. 8 failed 3rd down conversions.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:30 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:26 am
TSonn wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:16 am


Kirk admitted that he's not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half and at the end of games.

"I just let Zim handle the timeouts, because I never know quite what the coaches want to do with what they're thinking, a play ahead or what that may be. So I was just gonna let them handle that and call the next play if one came in."

Kirk may very well be part of the problem but he's currently a symptom of Double Timeout Mike.
Where does he say he is not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half or at the end of games? He clearly states he "just let Zim handle the timeouts". HE just lets him handle them. That implies a choice, does it not?
The big takeaway to me was that there isn't clear cut direction, at something there should be.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:40 am

makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:30 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:26 am

Where does he say he is not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half or at the end of games? He clearly states he "just let Zim handle the timeouts". HE just lets him handle them. That implies a choice, does it not?
The big takeaway to me was that there isn't clear cut direction, at something there should be.
That is the takeaway for me as well. That, and wondering how a 10 year veteran QB doesn't know he should be taking a timeout there without the coaching staff telling him to.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:41 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:26 am
TSonn wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:16 am


Kirk admitted that he's not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half and at the end of games.

"I just let Zim handle the timeouts, because I never know quite what the coaches want to do with what they're thinking, a play ahead or what that may be. So I was just gonna let them handle that and call the next play if one came in."

Kirk may very well be part of the problem but he's currently a symptom of Double Timeout Mike.
Where does he say he is not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half or at the end of games? He clearly states he "just let Zim handle the timeouts". HE just lets him handle them. That implies a choice, does it not?
Well that's clearly Michigan-nice for "the timeouts are Zimmer's responsibility". But it's clear when you add Zimmer's comment "no one should be calling timeouts but me".

Re: playcalling. If Kirk doesn't know what the coaches are thinking "a play ahead" then he's not calling them. "I was just gonna... call the next play if one came in" clearly means that Kirk isn't calling the plays. Now, maybe he doesn't want to but pair that with him not being able to call timeouts without it going through Zimmer I think we can infer that Kirk is also not allowed to call the plays.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:43 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:40 am
makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:30 am


The big takeaway to me was that there isn't clear cut direction, at something there should be.
That is the takeaway for me as well. That, and wondering how a 10 year veteran QB doesn't know he should be taking a timeout there without the coaching staff telling him to.
Zimmer last night: "no one should be calling timeouts but me".

Kirk's a problem but Zimmer is THE problem.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:43 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:08 am
TSonn wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:50 am


I'm genuinely confused. Aren't we 12th in pts allowed per game?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... me/dir/asc

I see we're 20th in yards allowed per game. I understand why you don't want to talk about that one.

I'm also not sure why scoring defense matters when we have a coach that plays to keep the game within a score and then relies on the defense to get a stop to win and the defense cannot do that (see: Detroit, Carolina, Dallas).
The defense is not 12th in points allowed per game, the team is. That number includes points given up on special teams and offense, something the defense has little control over.

This stat:
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... tsdef/2021

Only has scores given up by the defense and takes into account the number of times a defense is asked to make a stop. So if the offense is struggling and having a bunch of 3 and outs, and D is out on the field constantly (like ours is), you get some of that context here. It is far more accurate of a predictor for how good a D is than simple ppg against (that includes points not scored on the D) or yards per game, because there is actual context surrounding yards and points given up.

So from a points standpoint, the reality is that Vikings are 8th in scoring. From a yardage standpoint they are even better giving up the 6th fewest yards per drive.

DVOA goes even further and looks at yards per play, as well as how good the opponent is on those individual plays. The Vikings are 6th there.

The offense is the problem and it isn't even close.
We lack speed on D. They allow some stiff to split them for 73 yards on a pass from another stiff. That's not playing good D. That's getting smoked right down the gut which shows a lack of speed. A good D don't allow that to happen. There's only one stat that matters and that's overall record. We are 3-4. Maybe if we trade our QB for one of our former greats we would win the Super Bowl. Teddy, Case and Taylor H could be ours maybe for nothing then let our current guy play back up. That won't work either. Those 3 are worthless. They bring nothing to the table. Our OC Zim took his foot off the gas again once ahead. First drive right down the field and then zero. Plenty of these behind the LOS passes, which are runs, that don't have a chance for much. It's a better chance to lose yards. We lack the overall talent to beat the Packers out. Maybe go with our backup QB Mannion and see what he can do. It won't be good.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:47 am

I wonder if the Wilfs have drawn a "line" at which point they will move on from Spielman/Zimmer/Cousins, and if so, what that line is?

I would think at a minimum this team has to make the playoffs this year, but I wonder if they'd reach that point sooner... I mean, if this team winds up at 3-7 coming out of this stretch of games, losing to every good team they face in the process, one would have to believe the writing is on the wall for all of them.

I hope the Wilfs are thinking a step ahead too. They should already have an idea of the GM candidates they would target in the event they decide to clean house. It would be important to be ready to move on that quickly, pretty much as soon as they're convinced this year's team isn't going to reach the goals any reasonable person should believe they are capable of reaching. That GM would then have to be ready to identify the moves he wants to make as soon as free agency begins, most specifically in the coaching area, but also consider what veteran players the Vikings want to retain and what players could be traded for additional picks. More than likely the Vikings are going to win up in the middles of this next draft yet again, which means they'll be out of contention for any top QB prospects, but maybe with a few key trades they could find a way to move up to get a guy they want.

Sucks to be talking like this with 7 games gone, but after watching the offense struggle now twice at home against defenses that were able to pretty easily scheme them into complete incompetence, I just don't see how this team makes the playoffs even if the defense ends up as the best defense in the league by the end (which I don't see happening, but just using that as a point of reference). The Vikings offense is too easy to neuter. Good defensive coordinators know what looks to show Cousins that will make him unsure and when Cousins is unsure he reliably checks down and can be easily contained.

Vikings on 3rd down against the Browns: 5-16
Vikings on 3rd down against the Cowboys: 1-13

Both games at home.

Yuck.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:53 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:43 am
We lack speed on D. They allow some stiff to split them for 73 yards on a pass from another stiff. That's not playing good D. That's getting smoked right down the gut which shows a lack of speed.
You think that guy was that wide open because the Vikings lack speed? You think Cedric Wilson is a legit speed threat?

If so, better tell the rest of the league that because the dude isn't exactly lighting defenses up so far this year.

He's got 17 catches on 22 targets for 252 yards, a 14.8 yards per catch average, and 3 TDs.

For his career he's got 39 catches for 487 yards and 5 TDs.

He is probably not slow, but he's far from a speed mismatch.

No, what you saw there is called a blown coverage and/or someone in the defense gambling a bit, causing them to be badly out of position because they guessed wrong in the hopes of making a splash play.

Not sure exactly what explains the blown coverage in that particular case, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a lack of speed.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:55 am

Good news keeps coming, hopefully MRI will be positive.

https://theathletic.com/news/vikings-de ... LD5ZvKEbS/

Minnesota Vikings defensive end Danielle Hunter is feared to have torn his pectoral muscle, a source confirmed to The Athletic. A torn pec is the initial diagnosis, but the MRI to confirm the diagnosis is not yet completed. The injury would sideline Hunter for the rest of the season.

Hunter suffered the injury in Sunday night's loss to the Dallas Cowboys. A two-time Pro Bowler, Hunter leads Minnesota with six sacks in seven games. The 27-year-old was on the field for at least 83 percent of defensive snaps in each of the Vikings' first six games before Sunday.

NFL Network first reported news of Hunter's injury. Hunter had double-digit sacks in 2016, 2018 and 2019 before missing all of 2020 because of a neck injury.

Minnesota fell to 3-4 with the loss to Dallas and is 3 1/2 games behind the Green Bay Packers in the NFC North.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:58 am

TSonn wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:16 am
Kirk may very well be part of the problem but he's currently a symptom of Double Timeout Mike.
Zimmer doesn't get a pass on things, but Zimmer also isn't the one who is consistently checking down, holding the ball too long, and failing to try the deeper and middle routes.

Cousins can just be simply schemed into becoming tentative and exceptionally predictable. Once a team has him in that box, he isn't going to escape from it, either. We've seen it now for years, and I suspect we're going to see it many more times this particular year before its all over.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:03 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:40 am
makila wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:30 am


The big takeaway to me was that there isn't clear cut direction, at something there should be.
That is the takeaway for me as well. That, and wondering how a 10 year veteran QB doesn't know he should be taking a timeout there without the coaching staff telling him to.
It's only 7 games into the regular season guys... You guys really expect the Vikings to be competent enough by this point in the season not to call multiple timeouts in a row, or even have defined who should be calling them? :confused:

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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:07 am

Also from The Athletic:
It seems the team is almost better geared for shootouts when they know they’ll have to put up points, like against Arizona in Week 2. But when they go against bad offenses or backup quarterbacks like the last three weeks, they play so risk-averse as if they’re trying to win 7-3. In the modern NFL, that doesn’t work.
This is why Zimmer is to blame. He sets the direction of the team.

That being said, the rest of them need to go, too. Klint Kubiak appears to be great when he has all week to script the opening series of plays but unable to adjust after that. Adam Zimmer is a Zimmer. Andrew Janocko is obviously not a quarterbacks coach anybody besides Zimmer would want. They can keep Keenan McCardell … poor guy is being wasted.

Then there’s Rick Spielman. It dawned on me today what I don’t like about him. Spielman seems to be completely reactionary. No actual plan. He’s reactionary in the draft, as if he’s more interested in making trades than acquiring the talent to build a winning team. And he’s certainly reactionary when it comes to trades (Bradford, Ngakoue 1.0 & 2.0, Vedvik, etc.). I used to work for a guy who never had a long-term plan. Always reacting and scratching where it itches and putting out fires. It’s exhausting.

Wholesale firings can’t happen until the end of the season, but IMO that’s what needs to happen. This is a dumpster fire.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:16 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:07 am
Then there’s Rick Spielman. It dawned on me today what I don’t like about him. Spielman seems to be completely reactionary. No actual plan. He’s reactionary in the draft, as if he’s more interested in making trades than acquiring the talent to build a winning team. And he’s certainly reactionary when it comes to trades (Bradford, Ngakoue 1.0 & 2.0, Vedvik, etc.). I used to work for a guy who never had a long-term plan. Always reacting and scratching where it itches and putting out fires. It’s exhausting.
I think Spielman looks at the draft purely to find athletes who have unique characteristics. I agree he's not looking positionally or in terms of any longer-term plan - he wants to find guys who, at least on paper, create mismatches, and then turn them over to the coaches to be developed if they can be.

This is why only Christian Darrisaw has seen any substantial or significant playing time so far this season out of the entire 2021 Vikings draft class. Other teams are getting quality contributions from multiple picks, including some very successful ones like the Packers, but not the Vikings.

The main problem with Spielman's approach is he's throwing the dice on every pick, hoping to essentially find players who didn't get it done in college despite their unique characteristics, and I think the results have largely been predictable. He finds an occasional gem here and there, but plenty of marginal contributors and outright flame outs.

The real question in my mind is, how did he miss Cooper Rush?

(That's a joke for anyone who thinks I'm actually serious)
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