Vikings @ Panthers post game

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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by CharVike » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:19 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:07 am
That was a very interesting game. It played out in some ways exactly as I expected, and in others, not close to what I expected.

The first thing I expected was for the Vikings offense to start fast and then bog down. I was surprised that didn't happen, although to be fair to my initial prediction, the offense did bog down a bit at key moments. The two biggest differences on offense against Carolina were Dalvin Cook and the Vikings attempting some deeper passes. Cook's presence caused some problems for Carolina's defense and he racked up the yards on the ground and via the pass to prove it, and while the Vikings weren't wildly successful going deep yesterday, the fact they did made some things like Kirk's late game scramble for a first possible as the defensive backs had to turn and run on those deep routes. Carolina had been a team that got decent pressure on opposing QBs to this point, so I also have to note that the Vikings OL seemed to do a better job yesterday. Still, this OL is like Dr. Jekyll and Mister Hyde. To win consistently they have to show up like this every week, especially over the next several weeks coming out of their bye. Not sure they have that in them, but they seem to be capable of at least playing at that level.

As far as Cousins is concerned, he is playing very consistently this year. He made some nice reads and nice throws, missed on a few others, but generally speaking, is who we think he is. He's like the Leroy Hoard of QBs - if you need 2 yards he'll get you 3, if you need 4 yards, he'll get you 3. If slow and steady wins the race, then if the OL can play more like it did yesterday and less like it did in some of the losses, well, Cousins might just get then all the way. Clutch in OT for sure.

The second thing I expected was for the Panthers to be able to run all game and minimize the impact of Darnold and his penchant for error under pressure. On the run front, I did feel like the Panthers could have run all game had they wanted, while Darnold was largely ineffective passing right up until that last drive. The 2021 Vikings seem pretty good at generating pressure up front against the pass. If by some miracle of all that is holy all those veterans who have been in the league for a while ever figure out that it is better to hold your outside rush and position in a certain down-distance situation instead of spinning inside to try to get a sack, resulting in allowing the QB to escape the pocket for a big scramble for a first down, well, they might even be among the better defenses. Alas, they still struggle a bit with discipline on the pass rush, but there is still time in the season to get that ironed out and still some very good QBs to practice that against coming up here. Overall, the Panthers used Darnold more than they had to early, IMHO, while not attacking a still-soft Vikings run defense, which in turn led them to some key mistakes, which in turn got them behind playing catchup, and eventually, needing to lean on Darnold who then suddenly figured it out and was awesome. There are some mentions in this post-game thread about Zimmer's coaching not being ideal, but from where I sit the Panther's gameplan was a$$-backwards when they were on offense. They should have run, run, and then run some more when on offense because I don't think the Vikings could have stopped it.

This inability to effectively play the run on defense is going to be sorely tested and soon. The Vikings need to get it fixed if it can be fixed because some of the better teams and better coaching staffs coming in the next several games will hammer on that weakness much more effectively.

Special teams, what can I say? Joseph isn't the guy you want to be on the line with the game hanging in the balance. This fact should affect Zimmer's offensive strategy from here on out. He might want to go for it more on 4th downs on the opposing side of the 50, or perhaps tell Kubiak to keep the playcalling more aggressive in an attempt to score more quickly and from greater distances. Whatever he does, hanging the outcome on Joseph is highly risky. Might as well just flip a coin, and I don't think anyone wants the outcome of a given game or the season coming down to a coin flip after all the hard work they've all put in.

One last item of note - anyone else feel like the refs went out of their way to help the Panthers yesterday? Especially on the one defensive series where they invented PI out of whole cloth on like two consecutive plays (was one PI and the other holding?). Yes, the Vikings screwed up on a few plays and deserved the calls, but some of those calls were really questionable. Hard to say if they almost cost the Vikings the game because giving up that 96-ish yard drive at the end was criminal, but all I have to say is call an even game refs. If you're going to call it one way, call it the other, and I sure didn't see the Panther DBs getting called for what I considered to be much more obvious holding and interference on several Vikings pass attempts.

So the win yesterday was great, but I remained concerned about the run defense, and I remain concerned about the overall offensive approach that plays it so close to the vest that these close, win-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, too-reliant-on-the-field-goal-kicker, are going to be the norm the rest of the year. Zimmer needs to trust he has an offensive team that can put the pedal down to the floor and go for outright wins. I know he wants to trust his defense, and while they seem to be improving in some ways, I don't think he can simply sit back and trust them. He's got to let Kubiak and the offense go after it. Take those deep shots and take some chances and try to put it away even if well up. The pass to Osborn in OT was what I'm talking about. Cousins saw it and hit it and just freakin' ended the game then and there. More of that please.

Hope everyone gets healthy coming out of the bye. This next stretch of games is going to determine if the Vikings are going to be in the mix this year or not.
Kube isn't doing anything. Zim runs this team from top to bottom. I said before the game that he will bang Cook into the ground and that will continue until he's spent or gets hurt. The same thing happened a few years ago when Cook was worn out but Zim still sent him out there. That was sad. It's the same as sending a fighter out there when getting off the stool takes everything. One thing I like about Zim is he will generate pressure and he has several additional guys helping out. There's no easy wins in the NFL unless you face the Jacksonville's of the world as the Panthers did with the Jets and Texans. Even the Bengals give a battle. It took Rodgers OT to beat them. I was shocked when the Panthers came out and put it up which lead to a Darnold pick. Of course Zim came out and it was Cook right off the bat and boom -3 yards. At that point he put the O in a terrible position. 2nd and 13 with an OL that can be blown up. He latter settled for a dam FG. That's good enough or early 70s football in his mind. Go for the score right off the bat. Especially when the entire stadium and every person watching knew what the 1st play would be. They were sucked up. Perfect time to strike. Fake and deep post. Even if it's picked so what. Every games a battle and they pulled it off in a team effort which is what it takes. Great to have Cook back. He makes it go. Same on the Panther side with Mac. That hurt Darnold also. The next stretch will be the same deal a battle every game and they will all be close. The boys with that shi* defense can't blow teams out. The Pats with a rookie QB took them to OT. That tells the story. You can score on them and alot if you want it.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:04 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
I think every NFL coach, including ours, is likely capable of stopping a mostly one-dimensional team. While I think it was a gamble having Darnold throw coming off the bus, I did not find their plan all that unusual, considering they were missing their Dalvin Cook and they don't have a Mattison to rely on. Maybe Hubbard was a fumbler in practice, we don't know.
True, we don't know what they were thinking, but there are times and situations where trying to surprise someone is warranted, and times and situations where just doing what works, even if expected, is the best course of action. The Panthers ticked off 118 yards rushing on just 23 attempts at a 5.1 yards per attempt clip sans their Dalvin Cook/Mattison. It was working fine for them. They just inexplicably kept inserting Darnold into the mix and he kept predictably screwing things up.

I'd say it was even worse than that for the Panthers, though. Not only was Darnold all over the place, but even when he did throw accurately, his receivers couldn't catch it. The Panthers dropped more balls yesterday than I've seen in a pro game for a long time.

So in general, the pass was a huge liability for the Panthers on multiple levels, while the run was working, and they insisted on going with the pass. Who knows? Maybe the Panther coaches knew Darnold and his receivers had that last-gasp 4th quarter drive in them all along and were just waiting for them to put it together.

Whatever it was, I thought the Panthers coached themselves out of a productive offense yesterday more than the Vikings took anything away from them on defense.

As for the Vikings, the run defense is just bad, while the defense overall is hugely inconsistent. Its going to be a big problem and likely cost them their chances this season if they can't get it figured out soon.
psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
I am guilty of this assumption as well, but I would only point out that none of us know if it's Kubiak or Zimmer keeping the reigns in and seemingly only running 8 different plays per game. Maybe Zim did tell Kubiak to be more aggressive, but after seeing Zim can a bunch of OC's Kubiak still kept it tight. We can assume it's Zim of course with some certainty, but we don't know for sure.

So 3-3 still fills the building and certainly keeps this staff in place. Wilfs make money. I still think we're 8-9 at season's end and outside the playoffs, and at that point I'll get my popcorn to see what the Wilfs do.
Yeah, it's hard to say, but in the end Zimmer's job is more on the line than Kubiak's this season. Zimmer has had multiple cracks at it with, as you noted, multiple different OCs. If Zim is playing it close to the vest still and the offense isn't adapting and exploiting the considerable talent it has, yeah, I guess that could be Kubiak, but Zim is going to take the blame regardless. At this point in his time as the Vikings head coach, Zimmer has to know the buck stops with him on both sides of the ball.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by fiestavike » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:28 pm

First game I saw this year since week 1.

Takeaways:

1. Kirk still sucks

2. The NFL is putting out a really crappy product

3. The video game cam is old already guys. Can we wrap that s*** up?
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by Foreman44 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:03 pm

Would we have won if McCaffrey was playing?
How much of a difference would he have made
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:40 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:04 pm
psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
I think every NFL coach, including ours, is likely capable of stopping a mostly one-dimensional team. While I think it was a gamble having Darnold throw coming off the bus, I did not find their plan all that unusual, considering they were missing their Dalvin Cook and they don't have a Mattison to rely on. Maybe Hubbard was a fumbler in practice, we don't know.
True, we don't know what they were thinking, but there are times and situations where trying to surprise someone is warranted, and times and situations where just doing what works, even if expected, is the best course of action. The Panthers ticked off 118 yards rushing on just 23 attempts at a 5.1 yards per attempt clip sans their Dalvin Cook/Mattison. It was working fine for them. They just inexplicably kept inserting Darnold into the mix and he kept predictably screwing things up.

I'd say it was even worse than that for the Panthers, though. Not only was Darnold all over the place, but even when he did throw accurately, his receivers couldn't catch it. The Panthers dropped more balls yesterday than I've seen in a pro game for a long time.

So in general, the pass was a huge liability for the Panthers on multiple levels, while the run was working, and they insisted on going with the pass. Who knows? Maybe the Panther coaches knew Darnold and his receivers had that last-gasp 4th quarter drive in them all along and were just waiting for them to put it together.

Whatever it was, I thought the Panthers coached themselves out of a productive offense yesterday more than the Vikings took anything away from them on defense.

As for the Vikings, the run defense is just bad, while the defense overall is hugely inconsistent. Its going to be a big problem and likely cost them their chances this season if they can't get it figured out soon.
psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
I am guilty of this assumption as well, but I would only point out that none of us know if it's Kubiak or Zimmer keeping the reigns in and seemingly only running 8 different plays per game. Maybe Zim did tell Kubiak to be more aggressive, but after seeing Zim can a bunch of OC's Kubiak still kept it tight. We can assume it's Zim of course with some certainty, but we don't know for sure.

So 3-3 still fills the building and certainly keeps this staff in place. Wilfs make money. I still think we're 8-9 at season's end and outside the playoffs, and at that point I'll get my popcorn to see what the Wilfs do.
Yeah, it's hard to say, but in the end Zimmer's job is more on the line than Kubiak's this season. Zimmer has had multiple cracks at it with, as you noted, multiple different OCs. If Zim is playing it close to the vest still and the offense isn't adapting and exploiting the considerable talent it has, yeah, I guess that could be Kubiak, but Zim is going to take the blame regardless. At this point in his time as the Vikings head coach, Zimmer has to know the buck stops with him on both sides of the ball.
I’m gonna disagree about the rush defense yesterday.

Sam Darnold had 48 yards scrambling, including 30 on one play. Those aren’t running plays. They’re pass plays that turn to chaos.

On actual running plays, the Panthers had 70 yards on 19 carries for 3.7 yards per carry. I don’t know about you, but I can live with that.

Whether it was coaching, drops or good Vikings defense, the Panthers had 207 total yards until the final drive. That’s pretty solid. Too bad the Vikings had to screw it up.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by Frozen Rope » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:15 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:28 pm
First game I saw this year since week 1.

Takeaways:

1. Kirk still sucks

2. The NFL is putting out a really crappy product

3. The video game cam is old already guys. Can we wrap that s*** up?
What a powerful post. You really have a high football IQ. We’ve really missed you weighing in.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:26 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:28 pm
First game I saw this year since week 1.

Takeaways:

1. Kirk still sucks

2. The NFL is putting out a really crappy product

3. The video game cam is old already guys. Can we wrap that s*** up?
You are blind as a bat if you think Kirk still sucks
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by S197 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:04 pm

Forgot a positive, CJ Ham snapping that DB’s ankles. Hope he gets a few more touches. I thought that shovel pass play Carolina ran on the TD was a great call, maybe something to emulate as a way to get the Hammer a little involved in the offense besides blocking.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:46 pm

Here’s a positive … the offensive line in pass pro.

The Panthers’ defense came into the game leading the NFL in pressure percentage on dropbacks. They also led the NFL in blitz percentage.

Against the Vikings, they had a minuscule 8 pressures on 48 dropbacks.

Also, the Vikings came into the game having attempted just 15 deep passes (20+ yards downfield) in five games. Against the Panthers, they attempted EIGHT, completing 4 for more than 100 yards, and 14 YPA. That only happens if Cousins has time to throw.

Nice job offensive line. Welcome to the starting lineup, Christian Darrisaw.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by Foreman44 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:40 pm

:point:
Foreman44 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:03 pm
Would we have won if McCaffrey was playing?
How much of a difference would he have made
I think McCaffrey would have made a big difference.A Healthy McAffrey is one rb I might favor over Cook

Who really knows. Denards been a different QB with McCafrey in.

They didn’t play well first 31/2 quarters.i personally think the panthers would have won. Just speculation.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post gamegame

Post by Foreman44 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:48 pm

I take back I might take Mcaffrey over cook. No I wouldn’t.

But I think he would have changed the game
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by Cliff » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 pm

Finally was able to watch the 2nd half. Kirk Cousins is finally coming through in the clutch while the Vikings defense falls apart after having a great game otherwise. This team just can't put together a complete game on both sides of the ball.

It feels like this team has absolutely not chance to do anything beyond try for a wildcard and maybe lose in the first round. It's hard to stay invested.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 pm

After finding an incredible website that really breaks down line play on both sides of the ball, here’s what I think about our coaching following the Panthers game.

Tactically, we were great against the Panthers on offense. Strategically, we were a disaster.

Here’s why I think this … I take no credit for any special knowledge, except what I learned on this site.

(The website is Trench Warfare by Brandon Thorn — https://trenchwarfare.substack.com/).

Essentially, to protect the O-line against the speedy, athletic edge rushers on the Panthers, Kubiak shortened Cousins’ drops. Instead of the typical 9-10 yard drop, the Vikings had Cousins take shallow drops of 6-7 yards. Over and over they did this. Carolina’s edge rushers, who are smaller and fast, got upfield and consistently went way past Cousins. For his part, Cousins took a page out of Brady’s book, with quick, decisive throws. Even when Darrisaw and O’Neill got beat, it didn’t matter. The edge rushers were 3-4 yards past Cousins.

What Thorn didn’t talk about was the interior. However, because of the all-22 views he shows on his site, you can see that Cleveland, Bradbury and Udoh held up very well in pass protection. They HAD to … with shallow drops, Cousins would have been vulnerable with poor interior line play.

So, with Kubiak really doing a nice tactical job of keeping Cousins clean, it begs the question … why did the Vikings struggle to score? That’s where the poor strategy comes into play. We kicked field goals twice on fourth-and-short inside the Panthers 10. We got the lead, then took the air out of the ball. We played the old “get the lead, then run clock” game.

It basically confirms what most Vikings fans feel … that Mike Zimmer is too conservative as a coach.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:02 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 pm
After finding an incredible website that really breaks down line play on both sides of the ball, here’s what I think about our coaching following the Panthers game.

Tactically, we were great against the Panthers on offense. Strategically, we were a disaster.

Here’s why I think this … I take no credit for any special knowledge, except what I learned on this site.

(The website is Trench Warfare by Brandon Thorn — https://trenchwarfare.substack.com/).

Essentially, to protect the O-line against the speedy, athletic edge rushers on the Panthers, Kubiak shortened Cousins’ drops. Instead of the typical 9-10 yard drop, the Vikings had Cousins take shallow drops of 6-7 yards. Over and over they did this. Carolina’s edge rushers, who are smaller and fast, got upfield and consistently went way past Cousins. For his part, Cousins took a page out of Brady’s book, with quick, decisive throws. Even when Darrisaw and O’Neill got beat, it didn’t matter. The edge rushers were 3-4 yards past Cousins.

What Thorn didn’t talk about was the interior. However, because of the all-22 views he shows on his site, you can see that Cleveland, Bradbury and Udoh held up very well in pass protection. They HAD to … with shallow drops, Cousins would have been vulnerable with poor interior line play.

So, with Kubiak really doing a nice tactical job of keeping Cousins clean, it begs the question … why did the Vikings struggle to score? That’s where the poor strategy comes into play. We kicked field goals twice on fourth-and-short inside the Panthers 10. We got the lead, then took the air out of the ball. We played the old “get the lead, then run clock” game.

It basically confirms what most Vikings fans feel … that Mike Zimmer is too conservative as a coach.
Can you give an example of a team in the 1st quarter going for it on 4th and 4th or 4th and 2 inside the opponents ten? I can.

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... &no_play=N

95 % of plays on 4th down in that spot are FG attempts. Bill Bellicheck has kicked a FG 100% of the time. Andy Reid the same. Bruce Arians, one of the most aggressive coaches in football, has kicked a FG 100% of the time.

The issue with those FG was not the coaching decision to kick a FG in that spot. It was the failure to convert on a makeable 3rd and 4 and a makeable 3rd and 5 that forced FG tries.
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Re: Vikings @ Panthers post game

Post by vikeinmontana » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:02 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 pm
After finding an incredible website that really breaks down line play on both sides of the ball, here’s what I think about our coaching following the Panthers game.

Tactically, we were great against the Panthers on offense. Strategically, we were a disaster.

Here’s why I think this … I take no credit for any special knowledge, except what I learned on this site.

(The website is Trench Warfare by Brandon Thorn — https://trenchwarfare.substack.com/).

Essentially, to protect the O-line against the speedy, athletic edge rushers on the Panthers, Kubiak shortened Cousins’ drops. Instead of the typical 9-10 yard drop, the Vikings had Cousins take shallow drops of 6-7 yards. Over and over they did this. Carolina’s edge rushers, who are smaller and fast, got upfield and consistently went way past Cousins. For his part, Cousins took a page out of Brady’s book, with quick, decisive throws. Even when Darrisaw and O’Neill got beat, it didn’t matter. The edge rushers were 3-4 yards past Cousins.

What Thorn didn’t talk about was the interior. However, because of the all-22 views he shows on his site, you can see that Cleveland, Bradbury and Udoh held up very well in pass protection. They HAD to … with shallow drops, Cousins would have been vulnerable with poor interior line play.

So, with Kubiak really doing a nice tactical job of keeping Cousins clean, it begs the question … why did the Vikings struggle to score? That’s where the poor strategy comes into play. We kicked field goals twice on fourth-and-short inside the Panthers 10. We got the lead, then took the air out of the ball. We played the old “get the lead, then run clock” game.

It basically confirms what most Vikings fans feel … that Mike Zimmer is too conservative as a coach.
Can you give an example of a team in the 1st quarter going for it on 4th and 4th or 4th and 2 inside the opponents ten? I can.

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... &no_play=N

95 % of plays on 4th down in that spot are FG attempts. Bill Bellicheck has kicked a FG 100% of the time. Andy Reid the same. Bruce Arians, one of the most aggressive coaches in football, has kicked a FG 100% of the time.

The issue with those FG was not the coaching decision to kick a FG in that spot. It was the failure to convert on a makeable 3rd and 4 and a makeable 3rd and 5 that forced FG tries.
No dog in this fight but that stat site you linked is pretty ####. How people can keep track of all that is mind boggling to me.
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