Lions @ Vikings post game

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4mnvikings82
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by 4mnvikings82 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:47 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:19 am
4mnvikings82 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:00 pm


What did Breeland tweet?
Basically that fans would look good with his “Johnson” in their mouths, and that fans should shut the f*ck up cuz we won.

He then deleted the tweet.

Pretty classless.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:32 am

I'm a little late to the post game party, but wanted to add my thoughts on the game.

First and foremost, I don't think the Vikings could have called a more conservative gameplan. It was literally "let's get a lead (however slight) and then just try to play keep-away and for field position". I haven't seen anything like that since the 2nd half of the 1998 NFC Championship game where Dennis Green ended up taking a knee. Not only was that approach incredibly boring, it nearly cost them at the end. In some ways, I wish it had cost them. Zimmer deserved to lose this one a lot more than he deserved to win it. Suffice it to say, they're going to lose a LOT more games if they keep doing that. This next stretch of teams is going to illustrate the folly of that approach over and over.

Second, the defense is just not that good. For all the hype around the free agents they brought in, they remain maddeningly inconsistent, porous against the run, and seem more like a bunch of individuals running around playing for personal stats than a cohesive team of guys who play for each other. Somehow they kept the score down yesterday. I felt like that was more getting the breaks than anything they intended to do per se. I will say that Everson Griffen has impressed me. He's probably the best overall player on the defense right now. The rest of them, I'm not sure about. Breeland's tweet is emblematic of the character of the defense. He has personally woefully under-performed, and yet he thinks sending out an obscene, aggressive tweet is a good idea? Nice. Classy. Too bad his play isn't doing the talking for him. Trust me when I say this Bashaud - the feeling from most of the fans towards you is mutual.

Finally, the Vikings seem like a team on the precipice of implosion. They do not seem like a team that is turning a corner or getting their act together overall. Their offensive philosophy runs through having a RB on the field who can't get or stay on the field (not blaming Cook for that at all, BTW - dude is tough and gives it his all. It's the approach and design of the offense I don't agree with and the over-reliance on one player). They have an offensive line that might have guys who can move well in space, but they can't hold up against physical, aggressive defensive lines. Rashod Hill spent more time on his back against the Lions, for example. Not going to get it done. Cousins does what Cousins does. He's not going to do what a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen does, so if the rest of the offense needs that pick-me-up or improvised play, we're out of luck. But I can't blame him for these results, either. He's not the one who put an inadequate OL on the field. He's not the one calling the uber-conservative gameplan. He's just doing what he can do, and on a better team with a better offensive philosophy, he'd probably do very well.

IMHO, the Vikings deserved to lose that game yesterday. Not because they didn't play well enough to win it, but more because they approached it as if they had something to lose. In that 1998 NFC Championship game, Green did the exact same thing. He at least was in the Championship game and playing for the right to go to the Superbowl. Zimmer's crew was playing at home against a winless team with the right to get to 2-3. After watching that, now I wonder how many more games are going to go by before the Vikings see win #3? It could very likely be the next time the Vikings meet the Lions in Week 13.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:54 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:40 am

You need to watch it, man.

It’s not a “terrible take.” In THIS SITUATION, not what other coaches have done, nearly every expert on the planet, professionals who get paid to analyze, criticized Zimmer for running out the clock at the end of the half. Should we just sit back and say, “But wait … StumpHunter says it was the right move to sit on the lead, so all those other experts must be idiots”?

Get over yourself, man. I’m no expert, and you certainly aren’t.
I never said I was, which is why I posted what the experts actually did in THIS SITUATION. The REAL experts, not the talking heads who have never coached a game in their life.

Why did Bill Bellicheck run with 40 seconds left on 1st down when only up 8 points on the Dolphins in 2014? Why did Harbaugh run on 1st down with 39 seconds left on 1st down in 2013 against the Jets when only up 6 points? Are they bad coaches "playing not to lose"?
No, but you’re insulting and condescending toward anyone who dares disagree with you. You even insult people when they agree with you, as if they’re not bowing deeply enough to your altar.

Two can play at your little “why did” game.

Answer me this? Why did Chargers coach Brandon Staley go for it on fourth down in his own territory against the Browns yesterday (and make it)? Why did he go for it on 4th and 8, in field goal range, trailing by 10? Made that one, too, and eventually got the touchdown. Somehow I doubt he referenced what Bill Belichick did seven years ago. Maybe it’s because by doing so, he showed his players he believed in them. Or maybe he’s playing to win, rather than playing not to lose. And by the way, his Chargers hung 47 — and won — against the same team we crapped the bed against.

No matter what, saying the Vikings should have been aggressive at the end of the first half is not a “terrible take.” Know what it says to me? It says that Mike Zimmer doesn’t trust his team. Which is exactly why he should be fired.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by psjordan » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 am

Geez, this game/thread brought out the indignation, consternation, damnation, carnation, ruination and Mothman! That’s quite an accomplishment! Hats off to Zimmer.

Most of the DET game recap has been done above, but I do believe there is “bad portent” in the Kirk/Zim postgame exchange and the recent tweets from our DB’s. Have to wait and see how that all manifests itself, but I don’t think it will be pretty.

I will add that the only consistent thing about Zimmer’s teams over the years is that they’ve been maddeningly inconsistent, so I do believe there is a decent chance we do well against the Panthers. Just because we shouldn’t, really. Heck we only lost by 1 at the Cardinals, and no one saw that coming.

But one seemingly consistent Zim trend is we are not real fireballs after the bye, so if anyone in ownership is watching trends, if we get “blowed out” by the Panthers then they might not want to let Zim stick around to gameplan the Cowboys after the bye. Just sayin’.

Not to mention the subsequent Ravens/Chargers/Packers/49ers stretch.

I honestly think if there were 2-3 top level QB’s in the 2022 draft, ownership would seriously consider whacking the coaching staff mid-season. But I am guessing with the situation as-is, Rick, Zim and staff stick out the year no matter what.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:02 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 am
Geez, this game/thread brought out the indignation, consternation, damnation, carnation, ruination and Mothman! That’s quite an accomplishment! Hats off to Zimmer.

Most of the DET game recap has been done above, but I do believe there is “bad portent” in the Kirk/Zim postgame exchange and the recent tweets from our DB’s. Have to wait and see how that all manifests itself, but I don’t think it will be pretty.

I will add that the only consistent thing about Zimmer’s teams over the years is that they’ve been maddeningly inconsistent, so I do believe there is a decent chance we do well against the Panthers. Just because we shouldn’t, really. Heck we only lost by 1 at the Cardinals, and no one saw that coming.

But one seemingly consistent Zim trend is we are not real fireballs after the bye, so if anyone in ownership is watching trends, if we get “blowed out” by the Panthers then they might not want to let Zim stick around to gameplan the Cowboys after the bye. Just sayin’.

Not to mention the subsequent Ravens/Chargers/Packers/49ers stretch.

I honestly think if there were 2-3 top level QB’s in the 2022 draft, ownership would seriously consider whacking the coaching staff mid-season. But I am guessing with the situation as-is, Rick, Zim and staff stick out the year no matter what.
Even the failure after the bye narrative is inconsistent.

We beat the Packers at Lambeau last year.

It will not bother me in the least if Zimmer gets the axe before the Dallas game.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:31 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 am
Geez, this game/thread brought out the indignation, consternation, damnation, carnation, ruination and Mothman! That’s quite an accomplishment! Hats off to Zimmer.

Most of the DET game recap has been done above, but I do believe there is “bad portent” in the Kirk/Zim postgame exchange and the recent tweets from our DB’s. Have to wait and see how that all manifests itself, but I don’t think it will be pretty.

I will add that the only consistent thing about Zimmer’s teams over the years is that they’ve been maddeningly inconsistent, so I do believe there is a decent chance we do well against the Panthers. Just because we shouldn’t, really. Heck we only lost by 1 at the Cardinals, and no one saw that coming.

But one seemingly consistent Zim trend is we are not real fireballs after the bye, so if anyone in ownership is watching trends, if we get “blowed out” by the Panthers then they might not want to let Zim stick around to gameplan the Cowboys after the bye. Just sayin’.

Not to mention the subsequent Ravens/Chargers/Packers/49ers stretch.

I honestly think if there were 2-3 top level QB’s in the 2022 draft, ownership would seriously consider whacking the coaching staff mid-season. But I am guessing with the situation as-is, Rick, Zim and staff stick out the year no matter what.
Ravens/Chargers/Packers/49ers stretch. The Ravens beat this junk Lion team with a last play 66 yard FG. I don't see them as unbeatable. The 49ers? Do they present a huge problem? Packers are the king of the jungle but Zim has proven to control Rodgers. Not sure he can do it with this junk secondary but we can apply pressure. The Charges will pass at will I don't deny that but we need to come out and try to score big time. Not this 1st and 2nd down run no matter the distant BS either. Right now the Panthers can't blow anybody out. There QB who sucks fell off the tracks and based on his history I don't see how he gets back on. I also could be wrong and we might get destroyed. We are in the same as before the season chasing the Packers again. They are not folding unless Rodgers gets knocked out. But will have a few downer games.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:02 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:32 am

Second, the defense is just not that good. For all the hype around the free agents they brought in, they remain maddeningly inconsistent, porous against the run, and seem more like a bunch of individuals running around playing for personal stats than a cohesive team of guys who play for each other. Somehow they kept the score down yesterday. I felt like that was more getting the breaks than anything they intended to do per se. I will say that Everson Griffen has impressed me. He's probably the best overall player on the defense right now. The rest of them, I'm not sure about. Breeland's tweet is emblematic of the character of the defense. He has personally woefully under-performed, and yet he thinks sending out an obscene, aggressive tweet is a good idea? Nice. Classy. Too bad his play isn't doing the talking for him. Trust me when I say this Bashaud - the feeling from most of the fans towards you is mutual.
The Vikings are averaging 16 points per game given up over the past 3 games. That is facing a top 10 Seattle offense, top 3 Cleveland offense and a bad Lions offense.

It is a good defense, it is not a great defense.

I do expect Breeland to be cut as soon as Hand and Dantzler come back from Covid.

My concern with the defense is that we have 5 starters who are playing well on 1 year deals. When Zimmer is fired, I do not expect PP, Tomlinson or Griffen to be back. We could probably retain Woods and Mack for cheap, but the rest of those guys are either playing themselves into a decent payday (which we can't afford) or won't want to come back to play for a different coach. Barr and Richardson haven't played much or haven't played all that impactfully, but they are likely gone as well.

Next year is looking like 2020 all over again on D with a bunch of rookies playing big roles.

It is the perfect season to start fresh, with a new GM and HC picking their defense instead of being forced to play the old regime's guys.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:04 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 am
Geez, this game/thread brought out the indignation, consternation, damnation, carnation, ruination and Mothman! That’s quite an accomplishment! Hats off to Zimmer.
:lol:
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:09 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 am
Foreman44 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:56 am
Wow has this board changed.i gave Zimmer his chance, end of last season I had enough. But they kept him on. Now after a win. The mood has changed to fire him.

I am not disagreeing with the mood. Just at the change.

I think there are problems inside the locker room
People are finally realizing the offense is a problem and not playing good enough to even make the playoffs, let alone win the SB.

Since they look towards next year and realize there isn't a whole lot the Vikings can change from a personnel standpoint, they blame the coaching rather than face the fact the talent just isn't good enough.
I'm pretty sure zero people are saying the offense is the problem LOL. Almost everyone is saying the offense was way too conservative (from coaching decisions) after they got the lead.

The defense gave up 27, 27, and 30 points to start the season. They only gave up 14 points week 3 but it was obvious to anyone watching that the Browns could do whatever they wanted and they chose to play the TOP game. They held the Lions to 6 points ALMOST the whole game but when they needed 2 stops the Lions carved them up quickly for a TD and 2pt conversion.

Our offensive weapons are the only bright spot on this team currently and the coaching staff (most likely Zimmer) has no idea how to use them.

I'm pretty sure our offense set a record with consecutive losses to start a season while putting up 400 yards and 24+ points on offense.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by chicagopurple » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:30 pm

its just really poor football. The last 5 decades, even if we werent winning the super bowl, I could look forward to watching a killer D, in the form of the People Eaters, and later impressive groups. I could look forward to watching an innovative Offense that was ahead of its time, had great players like moss, culpepper, carter, etc......this team under speilman offers NO quality, NO innovation, No real excitement......its just crap and we try hard to get excited over mediocrity and management that can be the poster boy for alzheimers. Its a crap sandwich and warming it up on toast wont help.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:35 pm

TSonn wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:09 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 am

People are finally realizing the offense is a problem and not playing good enough to even make the playoffs, let alone win the SB.

Since they look towards next year and realize there isn't a whole lot the Vikings can change from a personnel standpoint, they blame the coaching rather than face the fact the talent just isn't good enough.
I'm pretty sure zero people are saying the offense is the problem LOL. Almost everyone is saying the offense was way too conservative (from coaching decisions) after they got the lead.

The defense gave up 27, 27, and 30 points to start the season. They only gave up 14 points week 3 but it was obvious to anyone watching that the Browns could do whatever they wanted and they chose to play the TOP game. They held the Lions to 6 points ALMOST the whole game but when they needed 2 stops the Lions carved them up quickly for a TD and 2pt conversion.

Our offensive weapons are the only bright spot on this team currently and the coaching staff (most likely Zimmer) has no idea how to use them.

I'm pretty sure our offense set a record with consecutive losses to start a season while putting up 400 yards and 24+ points on offense.
I think you are forgetting the win against Seattle where the D held Wilson to 17 points and the Vikings won. It was the one game where the Vikings had a complete game on offense and defense.

After this week the Vikings will be in the bottom 10 in points scored per drive(they were 22nd going into the weekend and unless Indy has a worse game than the Vikings, we will drop to 23rd). They will be in the top 10 of fewest points given up per drive.

After a really bad game against the best offense in football, the D has played well. After a really good game against one of the worst defenses in football, the offense has played really poorly.

If you don't think the offense is a problem, whether that is because of play calling or lack of talent, than you aren't paying attention.

Btw, the Browns chose to only score 14 points against us and give the Vikings a chance to come back multiple times and tie or win at the end of the game? How does that make any sense?
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:05 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:02 pm
It is a good defense, it is not a great defense.
I agree they are capable of good stretches. They have talent. They lack cohesiveness and consistency.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:02 pm
My concern with the defense is that we have 5 starters who are playing well on 1 year deals. When Zimmer is fired, I do not expect PP, Tomlinson or Griffen to be back. We could probably retain Woods and Mack for cheap, but the rest of those guys are either playing themselves into a decent payday (which we can't afford) or won't want to come back to play for a different coach. Barr and Richardson haven't played much or haven't played all that impactfully, but they are likely gone as well.

Next year is looking like 2020 all over again on D with a bunch of rookies playing big roles.

It is the perfect season to start fresh, with a new GM and HC picking their defense instead of being forced to play the old regime's guys.
Totally agree. There is going to be a lot of turnover next offseason pretty much regardless of whether they have success this year or not. The defense is built for a one-year push and failing that, the unit will be ripe for major changes to be made.

On the bright side, whomever ends up taking the reins of this team going forward will have his work cut out for him, but also a lot of opportunity to move quickly in the direction he wants to go.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Foreman44 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:51 pm

Ohhow amazing. What a difference a week makes.
Last week there was just a couple of us talking it’s time for anew coach. Can Zimmer,
Now after a win, almost everyone is talking fire Zimmer.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Dmizzle0 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm

Now that I've calmed down a bit, I don't think we should just fire Zimmer right now. I'd wait until this season looks like it isn't going anywhere or at the end of the season. We still have a great squad so I'm hoping we'll find a good replacement.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by 808vikingsfan » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:11 am

Not trying to be argumentative. Just jotting thoughts as I read...

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:45 pm
The Vikings run the ball four times on 2nd and more than 10 yards to go.
Wouldn't be an issue if Mattison gained more yds on those plays. You'd think the D would be playing the pass on 2nd and long so the O just needs better execution on these runs. Also, gotta do better on 1st down.

Vikings get the ball with 45 seconds to go in the first half and two timeouts. They run it two consecutive times.
Didn't get that either.

Justin Jefferson has five catches for 104 yards at halftime, and is targeted twice the entire second half.
Cousins not spreading the ball in the 1st half. Lions D playing JJ differently in 2nd and offense couldn't adjust.

Adam Thielen’s first catch of the day comes with 27 seconds left in the game.
Cousins not looking his way, Thielen losing a step, and dropping balls.

Meanwhile, Alexander Mattison ends up with 30 touches.
25 rushes which is about average this season for the starting rb. Add the fact that they were in the lead most of the game and it doesn't seem that excessive.

And for the fourth consecutive game, the Vikings fail to score an offensive touchdown in the second half.
This is the alarming thing IMO. Offense has scored only one TD in the 2nd half all season. 5 games, One TD, while the defense is ranked #2 in the 2nd half. I don't care who's to blame, the offense is not producing when it matters.

Somebody explain to me how this is not “playing not to lose.”
IMO, it's just the team not executing (mainly the offense) .

For this particular game, I think the staff called a smart game for the most part. Conservative? Yes. Playing not to lose? Not sure. I think they were playing the percentages to win. Is that playing not to lose? I don't know.

I think where all the frustration is coming from is everyone's expectations. Some believe this team is better than the Lions. Some think Cousins is better than Goff. Some believe this is a championship roster that is underachieving.
From what I've seen so far, I believe this is a bad team with some good players on it. Maybe the Vikings have better players than the lions but I think the Lions are playing better as a team. I don't see any cohesiveness or leadership on this team. I said it at the start of the season and I still believe it, it's going to get ugly in Minnesota.
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