Lions @ Vikings post game

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StumpHunter
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:40 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:45 pm
The Vikings run the ball four times on 2nd and more than 10 yards to go.

Vikings get the ball with 45 seconds to go in the first half and two timeouts. They run it two consecutive times.

Justin Jefferson has five catches for 104 yards at halftime, and is targeted twice the entire second half.

Adam Thielen’s first catch of the day comes with 27 seconds left in the game.

Meanwhile, Alexander Mattison ends up with 30 touches.

And for the fourth consecutive game, the Vikings fail to score an offensive touchdown in the second half.

Somebody explain to me how this is not “playing not to lose.”
A few things. First, we didn't lose and based on your post you would think we did.

There was 37 seconds left and we were starting from the 19 going into the half. The vast majority of teams run it in that spot:

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... rgin_max=8

The second half TD thing is the most damning. It means teams adjust to a limited offense and we do nothing to adjust to their adjustments. If it continues the HC and GM who decided it was a good idea to hire an OC based on who his Dad was should be fired for incompetence.

Detroit took away Adam and that is why we stunk in the red zone this game. He is the target of choice for Cousins in that spot, and without him we struggle in the red zone apparently.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:14 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:40 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:45 pm
The Vikings run the ball four times on 2nd and more than 10 yards to go.

Vikings get the ball with 45 seconds to go in the first half and two timeouts. They run it two consecutive times.

Justin Jefferson has five catches for 104 yards at halftime, and is targeted twice the entire second half.

Adam Thielen’s first catch of the day comes with 27 seconds left in the game.

Meanwhile, Alexander Mattison ends up with 30 touches.

And for the fourth consecutive game, the Vikings fail to score an offensive touchdown in the second half.

Somebody explain to me how this is not “playing not to lose.”
A few things. First, we didn't lose and based on your post you would think we did.

There was 37 seconds left and we were starting from the 19 going into the half. The vast majority of teams run it in that spot:

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... rgin_max=8

The second half TD thing is the most damning. It means teams adjust to a limited offense and we do nothing to adjust to their adjustments. If it continues the HC and GM who decided it was a good idea to hire an OC based on who his Dad was should be fired for incompetence.

Detroit took away Adam and that is why we stunk in the red zone this game. He is the target of choice for Cousins in that spot, and without him we struggle in the red zone apparently.
Seriously man, your defense of this coaching staff is beyond comprehension.

End of half … you are the ONLY person on the planet to defend that philosophy. At the end of the game, we had four fewer seconds, only one timeout, and started at the 18, yet we managed to score. I’m not interested in what most teams would do. I’m interested in what we should do.

Thielen … they take him away in the red zone, so it’s OK that we didn’t score all those times? He’s our only weapon?

You think it’s good coaching to run the ball on 2nd and 10+? Four different times?

There is no defense for the way this staff coached this game. Yes, they won … against a winless team with the lowest level of talent in the league and a number of players injured or slowed by injury. We were lifeless on offense and gave up a 10-point lead in 3 minutes. This was a game we deserved to lose, set up by the kind of play that will get us killed against even mediocre teams. If you’re OK with that, then more power to you.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:19 am

4mnvikings82 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:00 pm
40for60 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:41 pm
Very strange post game stuff between the Cousins/Zim interchange and the Breeland tweet. Do things like this happen to other teams with the frequency of the Vikings?
What did Breeland tweet?
Basically that fans would look good with his “Johnson” in their mouths, and that fans should shut the f*ck up cuz we won.

He then deleted the tweet.

Pretty classless.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:32 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:19 am
4mnvikings82 wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:00 pm


What did Breeland tweet?
Basically that fans would look good with his “Johnson” in their mouths, and that fans should shut the f*ck up cuz we won.

He then deleted the tweet.

Pretty classless.
I thought Breeland is a good signing but I changed my mind, he reminds me of Fred Smoot that always run his mouth and acts like a top 10 cornerback which is not, I can not wait until he is off the team
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:12 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:40 am

A few things. First, we didn't lose and based on your post you would think we did.

There was 37 seconds left and we were starting from the 19 going into the half. The vast majority of teams run it in that spot:

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... rgin_max=8
I've noticed that in defense of our coach, you always point out historical data or other coaches decision frequencies in a similar situation. When you were young, did your mother ever ask you "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?" Mine did. What she tried to instill in me was to make my own choices, not based on what everyone else was doing. Just because everyone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. Are you getting that? J. Kapp is dead on. You don't sit on a small lead when you have timeouts and plenty of time left to get in scoring position.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Cliff » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:15 am

I don't think I've ever been more deflated by a victory - one where they kept the lead the entire game, even! I think it's because the team has shown what it is. They proved they're about on the same level as the Lions as they very nearly lost to them and that 1-3 was no accident.

It felt like winning a battle in a losing war.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:25 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:14 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:40 am


A few things. First, we didn't lose and based on your post you would think we did.

There was 37 seconds left and we were starting from the 19 going into the half. The vast majority of teams run it in that spot:

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... rgin_max=8

The second half TD thing is the most damning. It means teams adjust to a limited offense and we do nothing to adjust to their adjustments. If it continues the HC and GM who decided it was a good idea to hire an OC based on who his Dad was should be fired for incompetence.

Detroit took away Adam and that is why we stunk in the red zone this game. He is the target of choice for Cousins in that spot, and without him we struggle in the red zone apparently.
Seriously man, your defense of this coaching staff is beyond comprehension.
I literally said the HC should be fired in the post you are responding too. :confused:
End of half … you are the ONLY person on the planet to defend that philosophy. At the end of the game, we had four fewer seconds, only one timeout, and started at the 18, yet we managed to score. I’m not interested in what most teams would do. I’m interested in what we should do.
I am not the ONLY person on the planet to defend that philosophy. If you clicked on that link you would see nearly every HC since 2010 does the exact same thing Zimmer does. It was a bad take on your part and I proved it with facts instead of emotional opinions.
Thielen … they take him away in the red zone, so it’s OK that we didn’t score all those times? He’s our only weapon?
It is not okay and I never claimed it was. Other players are running routes out there in the red zone, but without Thielen to bail him out Cousins is struggling to see them.
You think it’s good coaching to run the ball on 2nd and 10+? Four different times?
The Vikings threw or had a pass play drawn up 13 times on 2nd down and ran it 8. On 2nd and 10+ they passed 5 times and ran it 4 times. We average 5.6 YPA on 2nd and 10+ when passing in that spot. We average 2.5 YPA when running in that spot. 3 more yards per attempt on 2nd and 10+ is the reason we only scored 19 against one of the worst defenses in the NFL?

Do you think that the Vikings might be hesitating to pass in that spot because obvious passing downs are a struggle for the Oline?
There is no defense for the way this staff coached this game. Yes, they won … against a winless team with the lowest level of talent in the league and a number of players injured or slowed by injury. We were lifeless on offense and gave up a 10-point lead in 3 minutes. This was a game we deserved to lose, set up by the kind of play that will get us killed against even mediocre teams. If you’re OK with that, then more power to you.
Yeah, you are projecting here. I did not say I was okay with a lifeless offense or that we gave up a 10 point lead in 3 minutes after Zimmer coached Mattison to fumble the football to put the Lions in scoring position at the end of the game.

The coaching on offense does not appear to be good. The talent on offense appears to be average at best outside of the 3 stars in JJ, Cook and Theilen. The defense looks good, but it is filled with guys on 1 year deals who will be gone next season.

Time to blow the whole thing up, not just focus on a HC, because we want to believe this is just a coaching problem and not a problem with the team as a whole.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:31 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:12 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:40 am

A few things. First, we didn't lose and based on your post you would think we did.

There was 37 seconds left and we were starting from the 19 going into the half. The vast majority of teams run it in that spot:

https://stathead.com/football/play_find ... rgin_max=8
I've noticed that in defense of our coach, you always point out historical data or other coaches decision frequencies in a similar situation. When you were young, did your mother ever ask you "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?" Mine did. What she tried to instill in me was to make my own choices, not based on what everyone else was doing. Just because everyone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. Are you getting that? J. Kapp is dead on. You don't sit on a small lead when you have timeouts and plenty of time left to get in scoring position.
Yes, when people have terrible takes and claim a HC should have done something differently I do look at what other head coaches have done to see if the current HC was way off base or if he is doing what the people who are at the top of their field agree should be done. Should I trust Kapp with what the right decision was there or should I trust the guys who are actual NFL head coaches?
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:40 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:31 am
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:12 am


I've noticed that in defense of our coach, you always point out historical data or other coaches decision frequencies in a similar situation. When you were young, did your mother ever ask you "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?" Mine did. What she tried to instill in me was to make my own choices, not based on what everyone else was doing. Just because everyone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. Are you getting that? J. Kapp is dead on. You don't sit on a small lead when you have timeouts and plenty of time left to get in scoring position.
Yes, when people have terrible takes and claim a HC should have done something differently I do look at what other head coaches have done to see if the current HC was way off base or if he is doing what the people who are at the top of their field agree should be done. Should I trust Kapp with what the right decision was there or should I trust the guys who are actual NFL head coaches?
You need to watch it, man.

It’s not a “terrible take.” In THIS SITUATION, not what other coaches have done, nearly every expert on the planet, professionals who get paid to analyze, criticized Zimmer for running out the clock at the end of the half. Should we just sit back and say, “But wait … StumpHunter says it was the right move to sit on the lead, so all those other experts must be idiots”?

Get over yourself, man. I’m no expert, and you certainly aren’t.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:54 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:40 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:31 am

Yes, when people have terrible takes and claim a HC should have done something differently I do look at what other head coaches have done to see if the current HC was way off base or if he is doing what the people who are at the top of their field agree should be done. Should I trust Kapp with what the right decision was there or should I trust the guys who are actual NFL head coaches?
You need to watch it, man.

It’s not a “terrible take.” In THIS SITUATION, not what other coaches have done, nearly every expert on the planet, professionals who get paid to analyze, criticized Zimmer for running out the clock at the end of the half. Should we just sit back and say, “But wait … StumpHunter says it was the right move to sit on the lead, so all those other experts must be idiots”?

Get over yourself, man. I’m no expert, and you certainly aren’t.
I never said I was, which is why I posted what the experts actually did in THIS SITUATION. The REAL experts, not the talking heads who have never coached a game in their life.

Why did Bill Bellicheck run with 40 seconds left on 1st down when only up 8 points on the Dolphins in 2014? Why did Harbaugh run on 1st down with 39 seconds left on 1st down in 2013 against the Jets when only up 6 points? Are they bad coaches "playing not to lose"?
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Foreman44 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:57 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 am
Foreman44 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:56 am
Wow has this board changed.i gave Zimmer his chance, end of last season I had enough. But they kept him on. Now after a win. The mood has changed to fire him.

I am not disagreeing with the mood. Just at the change.

I think there are problems inside the locker room
People are finally realizing the offense is a problem and not playing good enough to even make the playoffs, let alone win the SB.

Since they look towards next year and realize there isn't a whole lot the Vikings can change from a personnel standpoint, they blame the coaching rather than face the fact the talent just isn't good enough.
Then do we get rid of Spielman to. He is overall responsible for bringing in he talent.

I know the crap rolls down hill.

I am a believe. We can get super bowl talent every round of the NFL draft. Just have to draft the right guys, is spielman best off going the extra draft picks, or go with higher valued talent earlier..

If we don’t have the talent.it falls on R.S.

One example I recall someone saying. We could have had Donald. Instead we drafted ? I am thinking we needed a QBs when Wilson was drafted In 3rd round. I don't know if that was the ponder draft ornot.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Mothman » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:04 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:25 am
Time to blow the whole thing up, not just focus on a HC, because we want to believe this is just a coaching problem and not a problem with the team as a whole.
Yes, but that's why coaching is part of the problem: Zimmer has played a critical role in building the team and he's not a coach that tends to get the most of the talent available to him week after week. His shortcomings have been apparent from the start and increasingly obvious over the years. Ditto for Spielman, who also needs to go.

The Vikes had a chance to move on from Zimmer, Spielman and Cousins and instead doubled down on all 3. They embraced the relatively low, "we might make the playoffs and even win a postseason game every other year" ceiling those 3 represent. I've seen every excuse possible made for all 3 but the bottom line is the Vikings aren't going to win a Super Bowl with this trio in key positions so they need to move on. They should have moved on years ago.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:06 am

Foreman44 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:57 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 am

People are finally realizing the offense is a problem and not playing good enough to even make the playoffs, let alone win the SB.

Since they look towards next year and realize there isn't a whole lot the Vikings can change from a personnel standpoint, they blame the coaching rather than face the fact the talent just isn't good enough.
Then do we get rid of Spielman to. He is overall responsible for bringing in he talent.

I know the crap rolls down hill.

I am a believe. We can get super bowl talent every round of the NFL draft. Just have to draft the right guys, is spielman best off going the extra draft picks, or go with higher valued talent earlier..

If we don’t have the talent.it falls on R.S.

One example I recall someone saying. We could have had Donald. Instead we drafted ? I am thinking we needed a QBs when Wilson was drafted In 3rd round. I don't know if that was the ponder draft ornot.
We get rid of everyone and start over.

Even if you think Zimmer is the biggest problem with the team, Spielman is responsible for his hiring and he is responsible for keeping him around for as long as he has.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by Foreman44 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:06 am

Foreman44 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:57 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 am

People are finally realizing the offense is a problem and not playing good enough to even make the playoffs, let alone win the SB.

Since they look towards next year and realize there isn't a whole lot the Vikings can change from a personnel standpoint, they blame the coaching rather than face the fact the talent just isn't good enough.
Then do we get rid of Spielman to. He is overall responsible for bringing in he talent.

I know the crap rolls down hill.

I am a believe. We can get super bowl talent every round of the NFL draft. Just have to draft the right guys, is spielman best off going the extra draft picks, or go with higher valued talent earlier..

If we don’t have the talent.it falls on R.S.

One example I recall someone saying. We could have had Donald. Instead we drafted ? I am thinking we needed a QBs when Wilson was drafted In 3rd round. I don't know if that was the ponder draft ornot.
Ponder was drafted the year befor Russell.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:07 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:04 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:25 am
Time to blow the whole thing up, not just focus on a HC, because we want to believe this is just a coaching problem and not a problem with the team as a whole.
Yes, but that's why coaching is part of the problem: Zimmer has played a critical role in building the team and he's not a coach that tends to get the most of the talent available to him week after week. His shortcomings have been apparent from the start and increasingly obvious over the years. Ditto for Spielman, who also needs to go.

The Vikes had a chance to move on from Zimmer, Spielman and Cousins and instead doubled down on all 3. They embraced the relatively low, "we might make the playoffs and even win a postseason game every other year" ceiling those 3 represent. I've seen every excuse possible made for all 3 but the bottom line is the Vikings aren't going to win a Super Bowl with this trio in key positions so they need to move on. They should have moved on years ago.
I wish this team could get new ownership. The problems with this team start at the top, not just the GM or HC. Since we can't do that do the next best thing and fire everyone you can.
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