Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

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VikingsVictorious
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:01 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:52 am

No way in HELL is Herbert better than Kirk.
Example subjective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/320 ... -takeaways)

Justin Herbert - 5th
Kirk Cousins - 14th

Example objective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr)

Justin Herbert - 4th @ 66.0 total QBR
Kirk Cousins - 17th @ 54.0 QBR

Herbert is better so far. It's not really that close. And his offense put up 47 points on the same Cleveland defense the Vikings couldn't put up more than 7 against.

That's not all on Cousins, of course, but telling nonetheless.
I disagree with those stats. A couple games ago Cousins was second overall in Qb ranking. It's the stat of the day is all that means.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by Norv Zimmer » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:23 am

The Vikings have not gotten a 2nd half touchdown since week 2. Most boring playcalling ever, open the playbook throw it down the field.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:04 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:01 am


Example subjective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/320 ... -takeaways)

Justin Herbert - 5th
Kirk Cousins - 14th

Example objective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr)

Justin Herbert - 4th @ 66.0 total QBR
Kirk Cousins - 17th @ 54.0 QBR

Herbert is better so far. It's not really that close. And his offense put up 47 points on the same Cleveland defense the Vikings couldn't put up more than 7 against.

That's not all on Cousins, of course, but telling nonetheless.
I disagree with those stats. A couple games ago Cousins was second overall in Qb ranking. It's the stat of the day is all that means.
If the stats indicated Cousins was 2nd overall, I'd have posted the same and likely disagreed with Stump that Herbert was better.

Unfortunately, the stats don't say that.

But it is long season, and maybe their respective fortunes will change again.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:36 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:01 am


Example subjective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/320 ... -takeaways)

Justin Herbert - 5th
Kirk Cousins - 14th

Example objective ranking (https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr)

Justin Herbert - 4th @ 66.0 total QBR
Kirk Cousins - 17th @ 54.0 QBR

Herbert is better so far. It's not really that close. And his offense put up 47 points on the same Cleveland defense the Vikings couldn't put up more than 7 against.

That's not all on Cousins, of course, but telling nonetheless.
I disagree with those stats. A couple games ago Cousins was second overall in Qb ranking. It's the stat of the day is all that means.
Unfortunately Cousins has had two low QBR games since then, while Herbert has been sensational.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:41 am

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:04 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am

I disagree with those stats. A couple games ago Cousins was second overall in Qb ranking. It's the stat of the day is all that means.
If the stats indicated Cousins was 2nd overall, I'd have posted the same and likely disagreed with Stump that Herbert was better.

Unfortunately, the stats don't say that.

But it is long season, and maybe their respective fortunes will change again.
Before the Cleveland game Cousins was 2nd overall. He played just fine in the Cleveland game, but very conservative plan didn't allow him to put up much numbers. In the Detroit game he once again played well and came up with the clutch drive to win the game. Herbert to me is a young QB with potential. Cousins is a great veteran. If I need one of them to win me a crucial game it's Cousins 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:43 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:36 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:09 am

I disagree with those stats. A couple games ago Cousins was second overall in Qb ranking. It's the stat of the day is all that means.
Unfortunately Cousins has had two low QBR games since then, while Herbert has been sensational.
Cousins played well, but conservatively in both games. Herbert was involved in that ridiculous shootout. Herbert is good, but to me Cousins is easily better.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:09 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:41 am
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:04 pm


If the stats indicated Cousins was 2nd overall, I'd have posted the same and likely disagreed with Stump that Herbert was better.

Unfortunately, the stats don't say that.

But it is long season, and maybe their respective fortunes will change again.
Before the Cleveland game Cousins was 2nd overall. He played just fine in the Cleveland game, but very conservative plan didn't allow him to put up much numbers. In the Detroit game he once again played well and came up with the clutch drive to win the game. Herbert to me is a young QB with potential. Cousins is a great veteran. If I need one of them to win me a crucial game it's Cousins 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.
I would guess even Cousins would admit he didn't play just fine in that Cleveland game, scoring only 7 points.

With Herbert starting for us against Cleveland we win going away.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by vikeinmontana » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:11 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:43 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:36 pm

Unfortunately Cousins has had two low QBR games since then, while Herbert has been sensational.
Cousins played well, but conservatively in both games. Herbert was involved in that ridiculous shootout. Herbert is good, but to me Cousins is easily better.
I'll respectfully disagree. Herbert is in his 2nd season and his numbers are better than Kirks across the board. The kid is becoming a superstar before our eyes.

I'd personally take Herbert over Cousins 100 out of 100 times.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 am

vikeinmontana wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:11 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:43 am

Cousins played well, but conservatively in both games. Herbert was involved in that ridiculous shootout. Herbert is good, but to me Cousins is easily better.
I'll respectfully disagree. Herbert is in his 2nd season and his numbers are better than Kirks across the board. The kid is becoming a superstar before our eyes.

I'd personally take Herbert over Cousins 100 out of 100 times.
Yep we completely disagree.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:42 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:09 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:41 am


Before the Cleveland game Cousins was 2nd overall. He played just fine in the Cleveland game, but very conservative plan didn't allow him to put up much numbers. In the Detroit game he once again played well and came up with the clutch drive to win the game. Herbert to me is a young QB with potential. Cousins is a great veteran. If I need one of them to win me a crucial game it's Cousins 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.
I would guess even Cousins would admit he didn't play just fine in that Cleveland game, scoring only 7 points.

With Herbert starting for us against Cleveland we win going away.
OK I double checked the stats and I have to agree it was a subpar game. We have no idea what would have happened with Herbert. He may have been sacked 10 times and threw 5 interceptions. You're guessing we would have done better.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by CharVike » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:05 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 am
vikeinmontana wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:11 am


I'll respectfully disagree. Herbert is in his 2nd season and his numbers are better than Kirks across the board. The kid is becoming a superstar before our eyes.

I'd personally take Herbert over Cousins 100 out of 100 times.
Yep we completely disagree.
I would take Herbert also just based on age. Last year was a learning year mainly. He's a talented young player who was a top 10 pick. So the skills are there and are better than Cousins. The Charges are also smart because they picked an OT at no 13 to protect their investment. Herbert doesn't fit the recent, although very old form, trend in needing a QB that is mobile to be successful. He had 234 yards rushing and Cousins had 156. Not a huge difference but a difference. Like always it will come down to what they put around him. Herbert was sacked 32 times and Cousins was sacked 39 times. Both high but much lower than Wentz and Wilson with 50 and 47. Looks like he's a rising star. Right now his D isn't the best so that won't help.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by cogitator » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:53 pm

I heard this stat on the radio today - the team with the most average yards to go on third down - Vikings. Kind of a shocking number, the average yardage left is 8.9. Hardly seems possible that a team would only gain one yard on average over the first two downs.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:54 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:05 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 am

Yep we completely disagree.
I would take Herbert also just based on age. Last year was a learning year mainly. He's a talented young player who was a top 10 pick. So the skills are there and are better than Cousins. The Charges are also smart because they picked an OT at no 13 to protect their investment. Herbert doesn't fit the recent, although very old form, trend in needing a QB that is mobile to be successful. He had 234 yards rushing and Cousins had 156. Not a huge difference but a difference. Like always it will come down to what they put around him. Herbert was sacked 32 times and Cousins was sacked 39 times. Both high but much lower than Wentz and Wilson with 50 and 47. Looks like he's a rising star. Right now his D isn't the best so that won't help.
I'm not talking about long term future. I'm talking about who is more likely to get you a win any given Sunday. I think that's Cousins. Time will tell.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:47 pm

cogitator wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:53 pm
I heard this stat on the radio today - the team with the most average yards to go on third down - Vikings. Kind of a shocking number, the average yardage left is 8.9. Hardly seems possible that a team would only gain one yard on average over the first two downs.
What is even more shocking is that the Vikings are 18th in yards picked up on 1st down and 12th on 2nd down. So things are either going really right on 1st and 2nd down (they pick up a first), or really wrong (they lose yards or pick up nothing). Very little in between.

Part of that is the Vikings really struggle on 2nd down on 2nd and long, averaging the 7th fewest yards gained in that situation.

More surprising is that the Vikings are pretty much just as successful on 3rd and long (31% conversion rate- 4th best) as they are converting on 3rd and short (36 %-2nd to last). So even though we are facing a lot of 3rd and longs, it isn't necessarily the reason the offense is struggling. That 36 % is really bad btw. The best in the NFL convert on 3rd and short around 70% of the time and even the Jets managed 45.9% last year.
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Re: Convince me that Mike Zimmer should still be the head coach of the Vikings...GO!!!

Post by VikingLord » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:57 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:54 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:05 pm

I would take Herbert also just based on age. Last year was a learning year mainly. He's a talented young player who was a top 10 pick. So the skills are there and are better than Cousins. The Charges are also smart because they picked an OT at no 13 to protect their investment. Herbert doesn't fit the recent, although very old form, trend in needing a QB that is mobile to be successful. He had 234 yards rushing and Cousins had 156. Not a huge difference but a difference. Like always it will come down to what they put around him. Herbert was sacked 32 times and Cousins was sacked 39 times. Both high but much lower than Wentz and Wilson with 50 and 47. Looks like he's a rising star. Right now his D isn't the best so that won't help.
I'm not talking about long term future. I'm talking about who is more likely to get you a win any given Sunday. I think that's Cousins. Time will tell.
It's hard to talk about long term future when comparing Cousins and Herbert because one is a well established vet and the other is in his 2nd full season. We could compare the stats each put up in his first full season as a starter to get an idea of how they measure up to each other.

Cousins first full year as a starter was the 2015 season with the Redskins. His stat line was pretty good. His team finished 9-7, and he had 379 completions on 543 attempts for 4,166 yards and a 69.8 completion %. He averaged 7.7 yards per attempt with 29 TDs against 11 interceptions. He was sacked 26 times, losing 186 yards, and fumbled the ball 9 times, losing it on 3. He added 48 rushing yards on 26 attempts, scoring 5 TDs on the ground.

Herbert's first full year as a starter was the pandemic-plagued 2020 season with the Chargers. His team finished 6-9, and Herbert had 396 completions on 595 attempts for 4,336 yards and a 66.6 completion %. He averaged 7.3 yards per attempt with 31 TDs against 10 interception. He was sacked 32 times, losing 218 yards, and fumbled the ball 8 times, losing it once. He added 234 yards rushing on 55 attempts, scoring 5 TDs on the ground.

Even their stats from the first 5 games of this year so far aren't all that different. Herbert has a slightly lower completion percentage, has thrown 3 more TDs, but also one more INT. Each has been sacked 9 times, with Cousins losing 62 yards on those sacks and Herbert losing 61. If you just look at the raw stats and separate that from the team performance, its hard to argue one is demonstrably better than the other, at least in the aggregate. In terms of trend, Cousins seemed to play his best football in the first 3 games, while Herbert has come on in the last 2-3 games. That's most likely what is getting him the hype.

I guess I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I also can't say I agree with it. I don't think there is strong evidence to support the claim that either Cousins or Herbert provide a statistically significant difference to the likely outcome of any particular game at this point. Substituting one over the other would be unlikely to alter the outcome by itself. We'll see how that plays out as the season progresses.
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