Browns @ Vikings post game

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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:18 pm
From Purple Daily pod: Zimmer is 17-41 against teams that finish the season with winning record (with them projecting Cards and Browns as winning records at end of season). With Kirk and Zimmer together they are 5-21 against teams that finish with a winning record. Hahahaha thats so bad.

They are pretty negative on both Coaching and Front Office.

Also pointed out, coach that had a worse record than Zimmer against such teams? Jay Gruden. Both from Cincy tree. Both also with Cousins as their QB during much of their HC tenure.
12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:56 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 pm
makila wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:18 pm
From Purple Daily pod: Zimmer is 17-41 against teams that finish the season with winning record (with them projecting Cards and Browns as winning records at end of season). With Kirk and Zimmer together they are 5-21 against teams that finish with a winning record. Hahahaha thats so bad.

They are pretty negative on both Coaching and Front Office.

Also pointed out, coach that had a worse record than Zimmer against such teams? Jay Gruden. Both from Cincy tree. Both also with Cousins as their QB during much of their HC tenure.
12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.
It just hit me very clearly what the difference is in Cousins when he's facing solid pressure early. He just tightens up and gets tunnel vision. Whereas in the first three games he's sitting back there in boss mode, the Browns start to breath down his neck and he totally clamps up. He no longer looks anywhere but his safety valve reads for the most part. He's "twitchy". The play where he started to take off running and cross the LOS before he threw is a good example of that. Either run or throw there. First three games, he stayed cool and calm under pressure and bought himself time. Against the Browns, he looked afraid on pretty much every drop back. Timing is also off. On the deep Thielen route that resulted in the pick he had a small window to hit Thielen, but he held on to it and launched the ball late, allowing the other DB to come over and make that play.

I guess he wasn't terrible against the Browns, but neither did he continue to play at the level he displayed in the first three games. Yeah, the Browns definitely had something to do with that, and most QBs will wilt under pressure, but Cousins just seems to "feel" when his OL isn't going to get it done for him. He can see it when the run game can't move the ball. He is getting guys in his face quickly, including free rushers who are hitting him frequently. He gets jumpy, his confidence vanishes, and he's just looking to get the ball out as quickly and safely as he possibly can, often to well covered receivers because the opposing defense knows that's what he will do in those situations.

If we can safely assume that defenses like the one the Browns possess are the type of defenses that typically make it deeper into the playoffs, then its no wonder why Cousins has not enjoyed any substantial success in the playoffs over his career, and it also explains his poor record against better pass defenses.

Stump already made these points ad nauseum, but this last game compared to his first three games this year was like night and friggin day difference. It really stood out, painfully so.

The really depressing part is, there is zero chance this changes at this point in his career. He's not going to figure out a way to cope with things better under pressure or realize that to have success against high pressure defenses he HAS to find a way to keep his eyes downfield and find the deep guys the defense is literally handing him on a silver platter, because that is what will make the pressure go away. He just can't do it, at least not with the consistency for any defensive coordinator with a decent pass rush to back off for even a minute.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by IIsweet » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:05 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 pm
makila wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:18 pm
From Purple Daily pod: Zimmer is 17-41 against teams that finish the season with winning record (with them projecting Cards and Browns as winning records at end of season). With Kirk and Zimmer together they are 5-21 against teams that finish with a winning record. Hahahaha thats so bad.

They are pretty negative on both Coaching and Front Office.

Also pointed out, coach that had a worse record than Zimmer against such teams? Jay Gruden. Both from Cincy tree. Both also with Cousins as their QB during much of their HC tenure.
12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.
So the GM has built a team of mediocrity, brought in a losing QB and gave him GUARATEED $$$, and a gave a nearly 30 year assistant coach his first shot at being a HC and he is losing.

Sounds to me like our people are not winners and we should get rid of them !
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by Dmizzle0 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:26 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:53 pm
There was a pass interference on AT at the end of the game that was never called. While there are problems this team needs to address, the refs are pretty much killing the Vikings chances multiple times.
The refs are killing them, or they're killing themselves with poor execution and dumb mistakes (like Kendricks yanking a jersey in the endzone when he didn't need to, or the Vikings calling a TO they didn't have on an extra point attempt), and the refs are just calling it?
Pierce called TO but Vikings would've gotten penalized anyways on that play for 12 men so yea thats on the Vikings. Kendricks Barely tugged on that guy, infact there was holding by the browns offensive line on that same play.

I forgot to quote the other part but Cook had like 5 defenders on him while falling awkwardly it's not that easy holding onto the ball in that situation. They where able to dislodge the ball after he fell.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:10 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:56 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 pm


12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.
It just hit me very clearly what the difference is in Cousins when he's facing solid pressure early. He just tightens up and gets tunnel vision. Whereas in the first three games he's sitting back there in boss mode, the Browns start to breath down his neck and he totally clamps up. He no longer looks anywhere but his safety valve reads for the most part. He's "twitchy". The play where he started to take off running and cross the LOS before he threw is a good example of that. Either run or throw there. First three games, he stayed cool and calm under pressure and bought himself time. Against the Browns, he looked afraid on pretty much every drop back. Timing is also off. On the deep Thielen route that resulted in the pick he had a small window to hit Thielen, but he held on to it and launched the ball late, allowing the other DB to come over and make that play.

I guess he wasn't terrible against the Browns, but neither did he continue to play at the level he displayed in the first three games. Yeah, the Browns definitely had something to do with that, and most QBs will wilt under pressure, but Cousins just seems to "feel" when his OL isn't going to get it done for him. He can see it when the run game can't move the ball. He is getting guys in his face quickly, including free rushers who are hitting him frequently. He gets jumpy, his confidence vanishes, and he's just looking to get the ball out as quickly and safely as he possibly can, often to well covered receivers because the opposing defense knows that's what he will do in those situations.

If we can safely assume that defenses like the one the Browns possess are the type of defenses that typically make it deeper into the playoffs, then its no wonder why Cousins has not enjoyed any substantial success in the playoffs over his career, and it also explains his poor record against better pass defenses.

Stump already made these points ad nauseum, but this last game compared to his first three games this year was like night and friggin day difference. It really stood out, painfully so.

The really depressing part is, there is zero chance this changes at this point in his career. He's not going to figure out a way to cope with things better under pressure or realize that to have success against high pressure defenses he HAS to find a way to keep his eyes downfield and find the deep guys the defense is literally handing him on a silver platter, because that is what will make the pressure go away. He just can't do it, at least not with the consistency for any defensive coordinator with a decent pass rush to back off for even a minute.
This isn’t news, unfortunately.

The knock on Cousins coming out of college, the reason he fell to the fourth round, was that he couldn’t see or feel his escape routes. So when he’s pressured, as he was a whopping 22 times against the Browns, he starts to see the rush. He loses his downfield awareness. Call it a lack of pocket presence or whatever you want, but you’re absolutely right — if it hasn’t changed 10 years into an NFL career, it’s not likely to change at any point. Cousins needs protection to succeed.

Unfotnately, he didn’t get it against the Browns. According to PFF, Rashod Hill gave up nine pressures, while Oli Udoh gave up eight. Darrisaw and Davis are the two guys drafted to be the future at those two positions. Maybe it’s time for our coach to give the kids a chance.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:24 am

IIsweet wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:05 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 pm


12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.
So the GM has built a team of mediocrity, brought in a losing QB and gave him GUARATEED $$$, and a gave a nearly 30 year assistant coach his first shot at being a HC and he is losing.

Sounds to me like our people are not winners and we should get rid of them !
The Vikings need a fresh start. They will see some massive turnover on the roster next season on defense, have an opportunity to to get something for Cousins in a trade or get nothing when he leaves in free agency the next year, and it is the perfect year to start a rebuild with a new HC, GM and QB.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:26 am

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:26 pm


The refs are killing them, or they're killing themselves with poor execution and dumb mistakes (like Kendricks yanking a jersey in the endzone when he didn't need to, or the Vikings calling a TO they didn't have on an extra point attempt), and the refs are just calling it?
Pierce called TO but Vikings would've gotten penalized anyways on that play for 12 men so yea thats on the Vikings. Kendricks Barely tugged on that guy, infact there was holding by the browns offensive line on that same play.

I forgot to quote the other part but Cook had like 5 defenders on him while falling awkwardly it's not that easy holding onto the ball in that situation. They where able to dislodge the ball after he fell.
The TO is 100% not knowing what is going on. Too many men on the field, then calling a TO you don't have. All the Vikings.

The Kendricks play was a bit meh, could have easily not been called. That said, to my blind butt, I still saw the jersey tug when watching it. I realize this isn't a blanket statement, as you can find examples showing otherwise, normally if the refs see a jersey tug they throw the flag. It is what it is. Don't visibly pull the jersey at the goal line. Gonna get called more often than not. If shoe was on the other foot we'd be screaming for a flag. *shrugs*
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:17 am

makila wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:26 am
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 pm


Pierce called TO but Vikings would've gotten penalized anyways on that play for 12 men so yea thats on the Vikings. Kendricks Barely tugged on that guy, infact there was holding by the browns offensive line on that same play.

I forgot to quote the other part but Cook had like 5 defenders on him while falling awkwardly it's not that easy holding onto the ball in that situation. They where able to dislodge the ball after he fell.
The TO is 100% not knowing what is going on. Too many men on the field, then calling a TO you don't have. All the Vikings.

The Kendricks play was a bit meh, could have easily not been called. That said, to my blind butt, I still saw the jersey tug when watching it. I realize this isn't a blanket statement, as you can find examples showing otherwise, normally if the refs see a jersey tug they throw the flag. It is what it is. Don't visibly pull the jersey at the goal line. Gonna get called more often than not. If shoe was on the other foot we'd be screaming for a flag. *shrugs*
Exactly.

There is a difference between ticky-tack pass interference calls that could be non-calls or go either way affecting the outcome of a game and the types of calls that have been going against the Vikings where the Vikings themselves are pretty clearly responsible for the underlying reason behind the call and its objectively the right call or at least a justified call.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:28 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:10 pm
Unfotnately, he didn’t get it against the Browns. According to PFF, Rashod Hill gave up nine pressures, while Oli Udoh gave up eight. Darrisaw and Davis are the two guys drafted to be the future at those two positions. Maybe it’s time for our coach to give the kids a chance.
I don't know about Davis getting on the field soon, but I think Darrisaw couldn't have done worse against Garrett than Hill did. I can't recall the last time I watched a left tackle get planted on his butt by a defensive end like Garrett did to Hill. You almost never see a defensive end attempt a bull rush on a tackle like that. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing it, but Garrett did exactly that to Hill and it might have been more than once.

Udoh should do better than he's doing. The dude is a big, strong guy with decent feet who should be dictating, so for him to be a turnstile, even against a talented defensive front like the Browns, is a little disappointing. He is a little tall for a guard, and maybe that is causing him to lose leverage in pass protection.

All I know is everything the Vikings OL did wrong in terms of execution against the Bengals aside from the incessant penalties they more or less repeated against the Browns. The main difference between the two games was mostly that while the Vikings were able to move the ball on the Bengals in the second half of that game by opening up some running lanes and better pass protection, the Browns never let them get their feet under them. The Browns kept up a very high level of intensity and attack all game and the Vikings OL were just outclassed. They really didn't look like they belonged on the same field most of the game. Yeah, the Browns have a talented defensive line, but the Vikings have invested so much into their OL in the draft it is kind of depressing to see them completely outclassed like that.

Any new GM who comes in after this season needs to find bigger, stronger OL, certainly on the interior. The guys they have maybe can be backups or something. They need to get much stronger and nastier on the interior OL regardless of what they do at QB.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by Dmizzle0 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:39 am

makila wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:26 am
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 pm


Pierce called TO but Vikings would've gotten penalized anyways on that play for 12 men so yea thats on the Vikings. Kendricks Barely tugged on that guy, infact there was holding by the browns offensive line on that same play.

I forgot to quote the other part but Cook had like 5 defenders on him while falling awkwardly it's not that easy holding onto the ball in that situation. They where able to dislodge the ball after he fell.
The TO is 100% not knowing what is going on. Too many men on the field, then calling a TO you don't have. All the Vikings.

The Kendricks play was a bit meh, could have easily not been called. That said, to my blind butt, I still saw the jersey tug when watching it. I realize this isn't a blanket statement, as you can find examples showing otherwise, normally if the refs see a jersey tug they throw the flag. It is what it is. Don't visibly pull the jersey at the goal line. Gonna get called more often than not. If shoe was on the other foot we'd be screaming for a flag. *shrugs*
Should have been penalties but offset.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:00 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:39 am
makila wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:26 am


The TO is 100% not knowing what is going on. Too many men on the field, then calling a TO you don't have. All the Vikings.

The Kendricks play was a bit meh, could have easily not been called. That said, to my blind butt, I still saw the jersey tug when watching it. I realize this isn't a blanket statement, as you can find examples showing otherwise, normally if the refs see a jersey tug they throw the flag. It is what it is. Don't visibly pull the jersey at the goal line. Gonna get called more often than not. If shoe was on the other foot we'd be screaming for a flag. *shrugs*
Should have been penalties but offset.
One thing I will say about the holding call on Kendricks on that 4th down play is the ref should use some discretion when deciding to throw a flag there. Yes, there is a small tug. No, the tug didn't impede the receiver at all. He still ran his route as before. Mayfield did look at him, but the WR had his back turned at that moment and hadn't yet made his break. Mayfield abandoned that option pretty quickly, not because Kendricks changed anything about his route or ability to run it, but because Mayfield felt pressure coming and got happy feet and bailed.

A flag in that situation is about as close as a ref can come to handing the Browns a TD. Not only does it advance the ball closer to the goal line, but it also gives them 4 more cracks at the endzone. So to throw a flag in that situation, the foul should be at least egregious enough to have actually prevented a TD. Since the receiver was not impeded and since Mayfield didn't actually try to throw to him, it's hard to argue it had any impact on the outcome of the play. Certainly no more than the OL holding that was missed by the refs.

Ironically, on the final Vikings play to end the game where Cousins heaved it towards the endzone, Adam Thielen was literally run over by a Browns DB as Thielen tried to come back for the ball. The Browns DB wasn't looking back, but in that case Thielen was clearly impeded and Cousins was attempting to get the ball to him. How the refs flag Kendricks for a minor jersey tug on an abandoned route while not flagging the Browns DB for blatantly impeding Thielen on a deep comeback route is hard to reconcile.

No, I'm not complaining about the refs per se, but inconsistent ref involvement on critical plays does bug me. If you're going to call a game tight, call it consistently tight. If you're calling it loose, call it consistently loose. Don't shift the standards for what is a foul and especially don't do that in critical, game-altering situations.

I am not happy with that kind of BS from refs. I think that is a legit complaint.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:35 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:00 pm


Ironically, on the final Vikings play to end the game where Cousins heaved it towards the endzone, Adam Thielen was literally run over by a Browns DB as Thielen tried to come back for the ball. The Browns DB wasn't looking back, but in that case Thielen was clearly impeded and Cousins was attempting to get the ball to him. How the refs flag Kendricks for a minor jersey tug on an abandoned route while not flagging the Browns DB for blatantly impeding Thielen on a deep comeback route is hard to reconcile.
Only Rodgers and Brady get a flag in that spot.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by makila » Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:27 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:00 pm
No, I'm not complaining about the refs per se, but inconsistent ref involvement on critical plays does bug me. If you're going to call a game tight, call it consistently tight. If you're calling it loose, call it consistently loose. Don't shift the standards for what is a foul and especially don't do that in critical, game-altering situations.
I do agree in principle with this point. Personally I harp on players needing to adjust to how a game is called. In all sports. Adjust to how the refs are calling it. Therefor it definitely is fair to ask for consistent flags. Reality is though they aren't always consistent. Stars get special treatment etc.

Ultimately only control your actions though.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:31 am

This is just a bad team. The talent is there, but they're not playing complimentary ball. Vikings D ranks #1 in scoring in the 4th and #2 scoring in the 2nd half. Vikings O ranks at the bottom scoring in the 2nd half and 4th qtr. The opposite is true in the first half. Vikings O ranks top 5 scoring in the 1st half while the D ranks at the bottom.

It's a bad team that lacks leadership on the field. I just see a bunch of individuals playing, pretending to like eachother. I don't think Zimmer likes Cousins at all. I don't see the camaraderie between JJ and Thielen, Smith and Peterson. Dantzler making selfish comments on twitter. It's a selfish team.

The root of the problem is Cousins. He's the reason for instability on offense. His limitations were glaring vs CLE (mental and physical). He didn't play that bad, but he will never be a QB that can elevate a team when needed. The Vikings offense have only scored one td in the 2nd half all season. One. It's not the fumble, or the missed FG, or the refs , or even the OL. It's Cousins not making plays when it counts. Vikings should move on from Cousins. I'd like to see what Mond can do before the next draft.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:54 am

See a lot of complaining about the refs. Haven't seen one comment about Cousins INT and the poor effort by Thielen to break up the bad pass.
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