Browns @ Vikings post game

[Pondering Her Percy]

Mike Zimmer said this after the game today:

I've been doing this 27 years – I know good teams and I know bad teams," Zimmer added. "I know this team has a chance to be pretty darn good. We may not look like it right now because we're 1-3, but even like [Browns Head Coach Kevin Stefanski] said to me before the game, 'You got a really good football team here.' And they do, too. They were just a little bit better than us today."

* From https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-of ... n-run-game

I know Zimmer has to stay positive and all, but "a little better than us today"?

Like, 35.5 TOP against better? Like 184 rushing yards against better?

The Browns might have eked by on the scoreboard, but from what I saw this game wasn't all that close. And as good as the Vikings may be or potentially be in their own minds, it appears the extent of it is in their own minds. They are not a bad team per se. When they lose, they won't likely lose by much. But what does Zimmer actually think this team's ceiling is? What does he mean by "pretty darn good"? Like what, barely making the playoffs and then getting ushered out immediately? Or does he think this team as it stands today can actually compete against the better teams?

The plays where Rashod Hill is literally knocked over backwards, or Bradbury is getting driven straight back yet again by a bull rush, or Kendricks is tugging a jersey on 4th-and-goal when he didn't need to. I mean, how good can this team really be?

The Browns are good. That is what a good team looks like. Consistent on both sides of the ball. Minimal miscues, especially in critical situations. Aggressive, but not reckless. If the Browns had more of a downfield passing mentality, I have no doubt they would have scored far more points than they did today. This was like watching a game of keep-away where one of the players is a small kid and one is an adult. It was never a real contest.

And yet there is Zimmer basically minimizing it and trying to convince us he sees something different?

This is a 7 win team max and maybe not even that. They have a pretty tough schedule. They pretty much have to win next week against the Lions, and knowing this team as I know them, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they come into that figuring they can take the week off because the Lions must suck being 0-4 and all. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them come out and lay an egg against the Lions on both sides of the ball.

I guess the question I have is, how can a team like the Vikings possibly address their shortcomings if their head coach and players don't see what those shortcomings are? If they keep telling themselves they are good when in fact they are not all that good, or at the very least, not playing up to their potential? The first step to improving is admitting there is a problem and then, when the problem has been correctly identified, taking steps to fix it.

As it stands, the Vikings two lines are not good enough. They need better performance out of the players they have and if that is not possible, they need better (or hungrier) players. This team isn't going anywhere unless the line play gets a lot more consistent and a lot better.

Good post. One player I will say is NOT good, Baker Mayfield. He's going to be the one guy that holds that team back. He was disgustingly bad yesterday.

As for the Vikings, I feel like this is Zimmers way of finding a way to keep his job. Keep convincing ownership that they are good and will turn it around. I will say, I do not think they are a BAD team. Way too much talent to think that. However, I feel like they are a very poorly coached team. Their choices on 2nd down today were horrid. Constant running on 2nd and 9+. We were wasting 2nd downs like no tomorrow.

I cant even pinpoint one specific player other than the two obvious ones on the OL. But overall, I dont think this was a game about the players. This was just pis# poor game management today by our coach. Especially offensively. Why Dalvin played was beyond me. He was nowhere near 100% and when he couldnt go, we looked like we didnt know how to play football. Yet somehow he came in at the end of the game a busted off a big run? Like okay? Are you hurt or not? Regardless, this shouldnt be the case because we have Mattison. It just seems like they planned for one thing, that plan went awry and they didnt have a backup plan. Which boils down to pis# poor coaching.

There is no doubt in my mind that this team has the talent to beat the Browns. But they dont have the coaching to consistently beat anyone right now. The stupid mistakes, poor clock management, lack of urgency, etc. Just another reason why Zim shouldnt have a job right now.

[StumpHunter]

Mike Zimmer said this after the game today:



* From https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-of ... n-run-game

I know Zimmer has to stay positive and all, but "a little better than us today"?

Like, 35.5 TOP against better? Like 184 rushing yards against better?

The Browns might have eked by on the scoreboard, but from what I saw this game wasn't all that close. And as good as the Vikings may be or potentially be in their own minds, it appears the extent of it is in their own minds. They are not a bad team per se. When they lose, they won't likely lose by much. But what does Zimmer actually think this team's ceiling is? What does he mean by "pretty darn good"? Like what, barely making the playoffs and then getting ushered out immediately? Or does he think this team as it stands today can actually compete against the better teams?

The plays where Rashod Hill is literally knocked over backwards, or Bradbury is getting driven straight back yet again by a bull rush, or Kendricks is tugging a jersey on 4th-and-goal when he didn't need to. I mean, how good can this team really be?

The Browns are good. That is what a good team looks like. Consistent on both sides of the ball. Minimal miscues, especially in critical situations. Aggressive, but not reckless. If the Browns had more of a downfield passing mentality, I have no doubt they would have scored far more points than they did today. This was like watching a game of keep-away where one of the players is a small kid and one is an adult. It was never a real contest.

And yet there is Zimmer basically minimizing it and trying to convince us he sees something different?

This is a 7 win team max and maybe not even that. They have a pretty tough schedule. They pretty much have to win next week against the Lions, and knowing this team as I know them, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they come into that figuring they can take the week off because the Lions must suck being 0-4 and all. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them come out and lay an egg against the Lions on both sides of the ball.

I guess the question I have is, how can a team like the Vikings possibly address their shortcomings if their head coach and players don't see what those shortcomings are? If they keep telling themselves they are good when in fact they are not all that good, or at the very least, not playing up to their potential? The first step to improving is admitting there is a problem and then, when the problem has been correctly identified, taking steps to fix it.

As it stands, the Vikings two lines are not good enough. They need better performance out of the players they have and if that is not possible, they need better (or hungrier) players. This team isn't going anywhere unless the line play gets a lot more consistent and a lot better.

Good post. One player I will say is NOT good, Baker Mayfield. He's going to be the one guy that holds that team back. He was disgustingly bad yesterday.

As for the Vikings, I feel like this is Zimmers way of finding a way to keep his job. Keep convincing ownership that they are good and will turn it around. I will say, I do not think they are a BAD team. Way too much talent to think that. However, I feel like they are a very poorly coached team. Their choices on 2nd down today were horrid. Constant running on 2nd and 9+. We were wasting 2nd downs like no tomorrow.

I cant even pinpoint one specific player other than the two obvious ones on the OL. But overall, I dont think this was a game about the players. This was just pis# poor game management today by our coach. Especially offensively. Why Dalvin played was beyond me. He was nowhere near 100% and when he couldnt go, we looked like we didnt know how to play football. Yet somehow he came in at the end of the game a busted off a big run? Like okay? Are you hurt or not? Regardless, this shouldnt be the case because we have Mattison. It just seems like they planned for one thing, that plan went awry and they didnt have a backup plan. Which boils down to pis# poor coaching.

There is no doubt in my mind that this team has the talent to beat the Browns. But they dont have the coaching to consistently beat anyone right now. The stupid mistakes, poor clock management, lack of urgency, etc. Just another reason why Zim shouldnt have a job right now.

Mattison average 2.0 YPA yesterday, about half of what Cook averaged. He wasn't any good, the Oline wasn't good and the QB wasn't good. That is why the Vikings lost. Not management. Bad play by every player not named Jefferson or Thielen on offense.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Good post. One player I will say is NOT good, Baker Mayfield. He's going to be the one guy that holds that team back. He was disgustingly bad yesterday.

As for the Vikings, I feel like this is Zimmers way of finding a way to keep his job. Keep convincing ownership that they are good and will turn it around. I will say, I do not think they are a BAD team. Way too much talent to think that. However, I feel like they are a very poorly coached team. Their choices on 2nd down today were horrid. Constant running on 2nd and 9+. We were wasting 2nd downs like no tomorrow.

I cant even pinpoint one specific player other than the two obvious ones on the OL. But overall, I dont think this was a game about the players. This was just pis# poor game management today by our coach. Especially offensively. Why Dalvin played was beyond me. He was nowhere near 100% and when he couldnt go, we looked like we didnt know how to play football. Yet somehow he came in at the end of the game a busted off a big run? Like okay? Are you hurt or not? Regardless, this shouldnt be the case because we have Mattison. It just seems like they planned for one thing, that plan went awry and they didnt have a backup plan. Which boils down to pis# poor coaching.

There is no doubt in my mind that this team has the talent to beat the Browns. But they dont have the coaching to consistently beat anyone right now. The stupid mistakes, poor clock management, lack of urgency, etc. Just another reason why Zim shouldnt have a job right now.

Mattison average 2.0 YPA yesterday, about half of what Cook averaged. He wasn't any good, the Oline wasn't good and the QB wasn't good. That is why the Vikings lost. Not management. Bad play by every player not named Jefferson or Thielen on offense.

Why does it not surprise me that you responded because I pointed the finger at Mediocre Mike......

There was zero fluidity with the offense. When did I say Mattison looked good? I'm saying we were playing musical chairs with RBs because one was out there when he shouldnt have been. Which looked like it through off the whole game plan. If you actually read my post you'd understand that.

But you know who else wasnt any good? Mediocre Mike. He shouldnt have a job. Whether you like that or not. This guy runs the team and you want to point the finger at everybody else. Face the facts

[TSonn]

It seems like Zimmer has some family members on this board. He's a great human but he's washed. I appreciate that he got our team to beat the teams we're supposed to beat for 5 seasons or so, but we're slipping back down into losing to teams we should beat again.

He never got us to a place where we consistently competed with top tier teams in the league and there's no way he'll get there at this point.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It seems like Zimmer has some family members on this board. He's a great human but he's washed. I appreciate that he got our team to beat the teams we're supposed to beat for 5 seasons or so, but we're slipping back down into losing to teams we should beat again.

He never got us to a place where we consistently competed with top tier teams in the league and there's no way he'll get there at this point.

Exactly that. Zimmer is going backwards at this point. If someone can tell me something good he brings to this team at this point, I'd love to hear it. But when a defensive minded coach cant even put together a good defense anymore, what good is he here? It's not like he pays any attention to the offense.

[StumpHunter]

Mattison average 2.0 YPA yesterday, about half of what Cook averaged. He wasn't any good, the Oline wasn't good and the QB wasn't good. That is why the Vikings lost. Not management. Bad play by every player not named Jefferson or Thielen on offense.

Why does it not surprise me that you responded because I pointed the finger at Mediocre Mike......

There was zero fluidity with the offense. When did I say Mattison looked good? I'm saying we were playing musical chairs with RBs because one was out there when he shouldnt have been. Which looked like it through off the whole game plan. If you actually read my post you'd understand that.

But you know who else wasnt any good? Mediocre Mike. He shouldnt have a job. Whether you like that or not. This guy runs the team and you want to point the finger at everybody else. Face the facts

He did his job on the defensive side, holding the 3rd best scoring offense through 3 weeks to 14 points.

He is the HC of the team though, not just the DC, and so he shoulders blame for the offensive failings as well. So does the GM who put a flawed QB behind a flawed Oline. So does the flawed QB and flawed Oline.

As for running both Mattison and Cook, the Vikings pulled Cook for most of that game and only put him back in once it was clear Mattison was not having the same impact Cook could have. It worked for a couple of plays, but it wasn't enough.

The biggest issue I saw from a coaching standpoint were the protections called on blitzes. Bradbury did a terrible job getting the RB in the right spot to pick up the blitz and that is on the coaching staff not prepping him to identify where blitzers would be coming from. The rest was just poor execution, which is also on coaches to a degree, just not something I would call "poor managemet", whatever the heck that means.

[StumpHunter]

It seems like Zimmer has some family members on this board. He's a great human but he's washed. I appreciate that he got our team to beat the teams we're supposed to beat for 5 seasons or so, but we're slipping back down into losing to teams we should beat again.

He never got us to a place where we consistently competed with top tier teams in the league and there's no way he'll get there at this point.

How quickly we forget 2017 when Zimmer did just that with a backup QB.

Zimmer isn't the solution and I don't want to defend him because I think it is time to move on, but there seems to be this narrative that if we just got rid of the HC, a team that isn't close to competing with the best teams in the NFL talentwise would suddenly be winning SBs.

It is wishful thinking not based on what is actually happening on the field.

Don't worry though, Zimmer will be fired after we miss the playoffs, Rick, the guy who has employed that HC all these years instead of moving on will keep his job and get to decide who the next failure at HC will be, and the Vikings will go into 2022 with a flawed QB playing behind a flawed Oline with a defense that has to regress to one of the worst in the NFL with how many starters it will lose and little cap space to sign new guys.

[VikingLord]

Ugh...

The Browns offense under Stefanski is exactly the same as what he tried to run in Minnesota.

He can get away with it because he's got two really solid RBs and a solid OL and also one of the better defenses in the NFL this season.

But no way would I want Stefanski as head coach. That would be like replacing TweedleDee with TweedleDum.

And yet he took the crappy Browns to a 11-5 record to the playoffs and upset the Stoolers in their house in the playoffs

I never said he is a bad coach or his team is crappy.

I'm just saying that in terms of mentality, he is similar to Zimmer.

Main difference between the two right now is that one has much better personnel to work with talent-wise and that talent is much hungrier than what Zimmer has from what I saw yesterday.

[makila]

They have to clean house if making a move. There is zero point firing Zimmer and keeping Rick. They are married imo. This roster, coaching staff, schemes, and front office is their vision.

Regarding yesterday's game; bad o line play, no run game, qb pressured up the middle regularly, and the edge often. Defense couldn't stop the run at all. Allowing cleveland to control the game. Stupid undisciplined penalties across the board.

We arent getting better, we are getting worse. Many key position groups have regressed. Penalties have been an issue in multiple games this season already.

Basically the same theme. Rinse wash repeat.

[TSonn]

It seems like Zimmer has some family members on this board. He's a great human but he's washed. I appreciate that he got our team to beat the teams we're supposed to beat for 5 seasons or so, but we're slipping back down into losing to teams we should beat again.

He never got us to a place where we consistently competed with top tier teams in the league and there's no way he'll get there at this point.

How quickly we forget 2017 when Zimmer did just that with a backup QB.

Zimmer isn't the solution and I don't want to defend him because I think it is time to move on, but there seems to be this narrative that if we just got rid of the HC, a team that isn't close to competing with the best teams in the NFL talentwise would suddenly be winning SBs.

It is wishful thinking not based on what is actually happening on the field.

Don't worry though, Zimmer will be fired after we miss the playoffs, Rick, the guy who has employed that HC all these years instead of moving on will keep his job and get to decide who the next failure at HC will be, and the Vikings will go into 2022 with a flawed QB playing behind a flawed Oline with a defense that has to regress to one of the worst in the NFL with how many starters it will lose and little cap space to sign new guys.

If we look at Zimmer's tenure as a whole, 2017 was an outlier. And it's pretty clear looking back now that that ball bounced in our favor way more than it didn't that season. Still, we beat 5 winning teams that season: Rams (11-5), Saints (11-5), Falcons (10-6), Ravens (9-7), and Lions (9-7). We lost to the Steelers (13-3), Panthers (11-5), and Lions (9-7). So even in Zimmer's best year as our coach, we were 5-3 against winning teams and 8-0 against losing teams. In other words, we beat the teams we were supposed to beat and were competitive against top competition (though, I wouldn't consider the Lions "top" competition). It took a literal miracle to get out of the divisional round and then we got stomped and completely outcoached in the championship game (also with a coach who had a backup QB starting).

So basically, 2017 was when Zimmer perfected the "beating teams we're supposed to beat" but we also competed against top competition. Sadly, that's the only year both have been true. Aside from 2017 it's only been "beating teams we're supposed to beat" and now that's not even the case anymore.

[VikingLord]

He did his job on the defensive side, holding the 3rd best scoring offense through 3 weeks to 14 points.

I don't know about that Stump. It sure looked like the Browns did pretty much whatever they wanted on offense yesterday. The main things that kept the score down were Baker Mayfield's lack of accuracy and the general tendency of the Browns offense to play like an old school wrestler who wins by injuring his opponent's weak spot and then just repeatedly going after that. Effective strategy, but its not nearly as exciting as the guy who comes flying off the top rope.

The Vikings defense wasn't able to get out of the arm lock applied by the Browns most of the game. For that matter they haven't been very good stopping the run most of this season against any of their opponents so far.

The rest was just poor execution, which is also on coaches to a degree, just not something I would call "poor managemet", whatever the heck that means.

A lot was poor execution, with the lead exhibit being that 30+ yard run given up when the Browns had 3rd-and-20-or-so. I watched that in near disbelief, but in retrospect it didn't surprise me because bad defenses give up runs like that. When the Vikings tried similar shenanigans on 3rd-and-long, the Browns consistently snuffed them out well short of the line to gain.

As of today, the Vikings defensive ranks are:

Yards allowed - 25th (389.0 YPG)
Passing yards allowed - 18th (253.5 YPG - a result undoubtedly improved by their performance against an erratic Mayfield, but not IMHO a result we can expect consistently out of them against QBs and passing attacks like the ones the Packers have)
Rushing yards allowed - 25th (135.5 YPG) - I was surprised this wasn't lower after the shellackings the Vikings have taken on the ground this year.
Scoring - 11th (23 PPG) - Literally the only respectable metric the defense has right now. I have no idea how they are this high in this metric beyond playing plodding offenses that struggle to punch it in, but when they do start to run into offenses that do that well, I highly doubt they will remain in the top 15. Those teams are coming.

It stands to reason that if Zimmer isn't the problem, then the Vikings must just lack the talent. If they have the talent, then that talent simply lacks the fire to properly prepare and compete.

At the core, at the heart of the defense, and maybe of the team overall, *something* is off. The rankings and results speak for themselves.

[TSonn]

The main issue is we have a disconnect from our head coach and the talent on this team.

Oh, and Zimmer isn't even good on the defensive side anymore - so why keep him? I'm pretty sure an offensive-minded head coach who can take advantage of Cousins, Cook, Thielen, and Jefferson can do the same or better on the defensive side with Smith, Hunter, Peterson, and Kendricks as Zimmer.

[StumpHunter]

It stands to reason that if Zimmer isn't the problem, then the Vikings must just lack the talent.

Yep, and people just don't want to admit that is the case so they are hoping it is just the coach. It is easy to replace Zimmer, it is really hard to rebuild an entire team so fans fool themselves into thinking this is a "management issue".

Fans are in denial and looking for a goat to pin the poor performance of the team on. Zimmer isn't blameless, but he also isn't the only reason this team is losing. He goes and this team still doesn't have the talent to compete for a SB, and I am hoping the Wilfs see that and decide to start completely over after the season.

[StumpHunter]

Oh, and Zimmer isn't even good on the defensive side anymore - so why keep him?

Except the defense has played great the past two games.

[VikingLord]

It stands to reason that if Zimmer isn't the problem, then the Vikings must just lack the talent.

Yep, and people just don't want to admit that is the case so they are hoping it is just the coach. It is easy to replace Zimmer, it is really hard to rebuild an entire team so fans fool themselves into thinking this is a "management issue".

Fans are in denial and looking for a goat to pin the poor performance of the team on. Zimmer isn't blameless, but he also isn't the only reason this team is losing. He goes and this team still doesn't have the talent to compete for a SB, and I am hoping the Wilfs see that and decide to start completely over after the season.

That means Spielman needs to go.

I think if the team doesn't make the playoffs this year all 3 will go - Spielman, Zimmer and Cousins. They're going to just have to eat whatever it costs them to part ways with Cousins at that point. Sucks, but I don't see a trade partner for him.

Then it's on with Mond most likely at QB, at least for that season.

The Vikings need to find bigger, stronger OL. The zone blocking scheme can work with great athletes probably, but they need more size and to be much more stout all along the OL. Udoh is about the only guy on the current line that has the size and strength to hold up against the bigger defensive players. O'Neill is probably OK, although Clowney got the better of him way too often yesterday. The other guys should go or be reverted into backup roles. Maybe Darrisaw can get on the field soon and show what he's able to do. He's bigger than Hill and if nothing else that increased size and wingspan should make a difference even if he struggles with technique for a while. Cleveland and Bradbury just aren't going to cut it on the interior. Both of them are too weak to hold up against determined pass rushers, especially for a team that wants to run inside. Neither is very consistent as a pass blocker.

Defensively, I don't know about Hunter. He's certainly long enough and can get to the QB. He's good. I just don't know if he plays up to his potential. I don't see him abusing any of the players he faces. He wins some matchups, but he should win more. In other words, I saw what Garrett Mills did to Rashod Hill all game yesterday. When has Hunter produced a similar performance this season against anyone? Mills clearly wants it bad. Hunter? Not sure how bad he wants anything but his bigger contract. I wish his play on the field matched his mouth off it when he was angling for that additional money.

The interior guys were supposed to shore up the run defense. Neither is doing it. Tomlinson is basically the invisible man. Pierce makes some plays, but not as many as you'd hope and teams are still gashing the Vikings inside when he's out there. Richardson is a shell of his former self. Wonnum? Can't even tell he's on the field to be honest. Everson Griffen is playing pretty well. He's probably their best defensive linemen right now.

And what about Anthony Barr? Hasn't been on the field for ages. Seems to have little interest in getting on it as he's sitting back making bank with his feet up. I mean, he banked it bigtime. I don't know how bad his injury is but if he can't get on the field then shouldn't the Vikings just cut him and fill that spot with someone who can? Very frustrating as a fan to watch a guy like that take up space and do literally nothing. Almost seems like he's committing insurance fraud. He's one of those guys who claims he can't work, but then the insurance investigators catch him mowing his lawn or down at the gym. I wonder what the rest of the players on the team think watching a guy like that milk it.

Hey, at least on the bright side Zimmer finally replaced Breeland with Dantzler. Hopefully that sticks the rest of the season. If Breeland never sees the field again in Purple I'll be happy. Patrick Peterson seems to be playing a little better. Breeland was such a easy target over the first 3 games that Peterson wasn't really tested (other than when he left guys wide open). Maybe now we'll see if he can step up because with Dantzler actually making plays on the other side he's going to see more attempts coming his way. I thought he could have picked Mayfield on that deep attempt into the endzone late. Guess he didn't get his head around quick enough or something, but that ball was very similar to the one that Cousins attempted to Thielen that the Browns DB picked easily because he knew to look back.