Browns @ Vikings post game

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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by psjordan » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:49 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am
Wow, funny how quick things change from one week to another in here.
Yes and this speaks way more about the team than the fan base IMO.

In my experience, team inconsistency is almost ALWAYS attributable to coaching. I'm not saying our coaching sucks, I'm saying coaching is far and away our biggest problem. Sure there have been highlights along the way for the coaching staff, no one is claiming they are zeroes. Well, maybe our revolving door at OL coaching has ended up close to zero, based on tragedy and ineptitude.

But yeah, I'm not sure you'll find an NFL team with more of a rollercoaster fan reaction week to week in the NFL. But it IS based on reality, unfortunately. Such is The Land of the Purple.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:58 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am
Wow, funny how quick things change from one week to another in here. Two weeks ago our head coach was getting chewed out for being a bad coach (which he is) in a game were our QB played great and our coach gave up a lot of points and made some questionable calls. Now fast forward to this week and back to Cousins, his inability to win or play good against good teams and his contract. Well again neglecting the teams overall play, and managements unwillingness to change. Our oline is as bad as it’s always been in the Cousins era, during this time every game we play a dominate dline we struggle badly (check out our division record against Chicago) and have done nothing to change that. Outside of O’Neil our oline is trash and gets beaten constantly. But again this is nothing new yet every year we do the same things expecting different results. Definition of insanity.
I get ripped for looking too much at stats, but the stats have been saying this team, particularly the offense, hasn't been as good as some thought it was.

We have an offense that is limited to short passes and teams adjust quickly to it, shutting us down in the second half.

In the 2nd half of games our QB is 53-85, 1 TD, 1 Int, 6.5 YPA and a 80.2 passer rating.

Our RBs are averaging 3.5 YPA

In the first half:
55-82, 8 TDs, 0 Ints, 7.9 YPA and a passer of 135.6

RBs average 5.0 YPA

Teams adjust to our offense at halftime and we have no answer.

The exact opposite happens on defense:
In the first half:
52-71, 5 TDs, 0 Ints 9.6 YPA and a 126.4 YPA

RBs have averaged 5.09 YPA

Second half:

The QBs we have faced have gone 35-57, thrown 1 TD to 2 ints 7.6 YPA and passer rating of 76.3

Running backs and QBs have averaged 4.53 YPA

Teams have been caught off guard a bit by Kubiak's offense, but adjust quickly to it. Teams know Zimmer's D pretty well by now, and game plan coming in to beat it, Zimmer adjusts at the half and the talent on D shuts down the other team.

We are going to get to the point where there will be enough film on Kubiak's offense that we won't get even that first half boost anymore, and something needs to change quickly or it is going to be a really long season.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:17 am

makila wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:58 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:45 pm

If I had to summarize what I understand Stump's position to be on Cousins it is that yes, the Vikings can win with Cousins, but they will only do so with a very strong supporting cast, and with Cousins earning the money he's earning, assembling and maintaining a supporting cast of that level will be nearly impossible compared to their competition. If the argument is that the team around Cousins needs to be stronger if the QB's level of play against better competition is consistently weaker, then does it make sense to pay that QB in the first place? Why not just relieve the team of that QB's exceptional compensation and use that freed up money to make the rest of the team stronger, and then get a QB whose pay can be justified for whatever level of performance the Vikings can expect out of him? Pay what you need to pay at a given position to get the performance you need to get out of that position. That is what good, winning teams do at more positions than not. Weak teams and teams that struggle overpay for the production they're getting at certain positions, which in turn hurts their overall competitiveness.

It's not an unreasonable argument.
Great post overall imo. Agree with this point. I've always viewed him as a QB who needs at least an above average oline and supporting cast. He can be a very good QB when he has time in the pocket. He's smart, durable, and can make throws. He is so afraid of throwing a pick though, once he gets scared it's just downhill. If they expected Cousins to be able to be great at improvising when the line play breaks down, I'm more concerned about our scouting of QBs. He never displayed that trait at Michigan St or Washington.

Yes, any QB in the game is going to do better with a good online and supporting cast, I get that. Some are just more dependent than others.

All that said, when you sign this QB to a huge contract you have to build the team that fits him, and with that contract, you limit your ability to build out everything else. There is a salary cap. Plain and simple. Cap management is one of the few things I think this FO does very well, this (Cousin's contract) has never made much sense to me though.

I get everyone has a strong opinion on this subject, and at this point, it likely isn't changing.

Also, I don't fault Cousins for the contract. Get what's yours man.
Your correct about the scouting. Cousins biggest fault as a QB is when the OL breaks down he does the same. That was pointed out in his college scouting report. Knowing that OL should be a high priority when he is your QB. This week it won't matter much because the Lions don't have much of a defensive front. Cousins will play well and Matti or Cook will knock out a good game. When we do face another strong defense it will be the same story. Our OL will get destroyed and lose the LOS battle which will trickle back to Cousins and our backs. Big question is how do we fix it now?
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by allday1991 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:09 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:58 am
allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am
Wow, funny how quick things change from one week to another in here. Two weeks ago our head coach was getting chewed out for being a bad coach (which he is) in a game were our QB played great and our coach gave up a lot of points and made some questionable calls. Now fast forward to this week and back to Cousins, his inability to win or play good against good teams and his contract. Well again neglecting the teams overall play, and managements unwillingness to change. Our oline is as bad as it’s always been in the Cousins era, during this time every game we play a dominate dline we struggle badly (check out our division record against Chicago) and have done nothing to change that. Outside of O’Neil our oline is trash and gets beaten constantly. But again this is nothing new yet every year we do the same things expecting different results. Definition of insanity.
I get ripped for looking too much at stats, but the stats have been saying this team, particularly the offense, hasn't been as good as some thought it was.

We have an offense that is limited to short passes and teams adjust quickly to it, shutting us down in the second half.

In the 2nd half of games our QB is 53-85, 1 TD, 1 Int, 6.5 YPA and a 80.2 passer rating.

Our RBs are averaging 3.5 YPA

In the first half:
55-82, 8 TDs, 0 Ints, 7.9 YPA and a passer of 135.6

RBs average 5.0 YPA

Teams adjust to our offense at halftime and we have no answer.

The exact opposite happens on defense:
In the first half:
52-71, 5 TDs, 0 Ints 9.6 YPA and a 126.4 YPA

RBs have averaged 5.09 YPA

Second half:

The QBs we have faced have gone 35-57, thrown 1 TD to 2 ints 7.6 YPA and passer rating of 76.3

Running backs and QBs have averaged 4.53 YPA

Teams have been caught off guard a bit by Kubiak's offense, but adjust quickly to it. Teams know Zimmer's D pretty well by now, and game plan coming in to beat it, Zimmer adjusts at the half and the talent on D shuts down the other team.

We are going to get to the point where there will be enough film on Kubiak's offense that we won't get even that first half boost anymore, and something needs to change quickly or it is going to be a really long season.
We have never done anything to address the oline, why would we expect change? We threw a bunch of money in FA on DTs, and CBs, and they have under performed. We drafted the second best LT and the best guard (apparently) from the draft last year and have started neither. Zimmers defence shuts down bad offence and gets exposed by good offences, our offence scores on bad defences and gets ran over by good defences. This team relies on the defence and offence playing a complimentary game which they never do. If the defence shows up the offence doesn't and the opposite is the same. You look at the draft capital and FA money spent, the defence should be the strength, however id say our offence is better. How many CBs has Zimmer drafted with the first 2 picks? how many are still on the team? This teams overall talent isn't enough, period.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:18 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:09 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:58 am

I get ripped for looking too much at stats, but the stats have been saying this team, particularly the offense, hasn't been as good as some thought it was.

We have an offense that is limited to short passes and teams adjust quickly to it, shutting us down in the second half.

In the 2nd half of games our QB is 53-85, 1 TD, 1 Int, 6.5 YPA and a 80.2 passer rating.

Our RBs are averaging 3.5 YPA

In the first half:
55-82, 8 TDs, 0 Ints, 7.9 YPA and a passer of 135.6

RBs average 5.0 YPA

Teams adjust to our offense at halftime and we have no answer.

The exact opposite happens on defense:
In the first half:
52-71, 5 TDs, 0 Ints 9.6 YPA and a 126.4 YPA

RBs have averaged 5.09 YPA

Second half:

The QBs we have faced have gone 35-57, thrown 1 TD to 2 ints 7.6 YPA and passer rating of 76.3

Running backs and QBs have averaged 4.53 YPA

Teams have been caught off guard a bit by Kubiak's offense, but adjust quickly to it. Teams know Zimmer's D pretty well by now, and game plan coming in to beat it, Zimmer adjusts at the half and the talent on D shuts down the other team.

We are going to get to the point where there will be enough film on Kubiak's offense that we won't get even that first half boost anymore, and something needs to change quickly or it is going to be a really long season.
We have never done anything to address the oline, why would we expect change? We threw a bunch of money in FA on DTs, and CBs, and they have under performed. We drafted the second best LT and the best guard (apparently) from the draft last year and have started neither. Zimmers defence shuts down bad offence and gets exposed by good offences, our offence scores on bad defences and gets ran over by good defences. This team relies on the defence and offence playing a complimentary game which they never do. If the defence shows up the offence doesn't and the opposite is the same. You look at the draft capital and FA money spent, the defence should be the strength, however id say our offence is better. How many CBs has Zimmer drafted with the first 2 picks? how many are still on the team? This teams overall talent isn't enough, period.
Oline never changes because the guy picking Olinemen in the draft never changes.

Zimmer's defense has struggled at times against good offenses, but this year it has played pretty well against 2 of the 3 good offenses we have faced.

I think by the end of the year this will look like a team that spent the majority of its money on defensive free agents and attempted to fill holes on the Oline with rookies and backups.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by allday1991 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:38 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:18 am

Oline never changes because the guy picking Olinemen in the draft never changes.

Zimmer's defense has struggled at times against good offenses, but this year it has played pretty well against 2 of the 3 good offenses we have faced.

I think by the end of the year this will look like a team that spent the majority of its money on defensive free agents and attempted to fill holes on the Oline with rookies and backups.
Pretty much. I'd love to see this team draft bigger, stronger push there guy backwards type of olinemen compared to the agile move them sideways guys we have now.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:55 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:38 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:18 am

Oline never changes because the guy picking Olinemen in the draft never changes.

Zimmer's defense has struggled at times against good offenses, but this year it has played pretty well against 2 of the 3 good offenses we have faced.

I think by the end of the year this will look like a team that spent the majority of its money on defensive free agents and attempted to fill holes on the Oline with rookies and backups.
Pretty much. I'd love to see this team draft bigger, stronger push there guy backwards type of olinemen compared to the agile move them sideways guys we have now.
I said that from the start when we implemented this wuss attack offense. I pointed out we had Dixon and Stringer on the right side which was over 700 LBS of mass and that was along time ago. It's tough dealing with that all day long and guys get beaten down and that's when the ground game takes over. and even throwing the ball is easier at that point. It's called wearing them down.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:15 am

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:06 pm
Silly take but,

I think Kevin Harlan is one of the best announcers out there, but I get nervous when he's calling our games. Does anyone know our record when he's calling Vikings games? :tongue:
Not sure of the record, but he did call the game against Denver two years ago when we trailed 20-0 at the half and came back to win.

By the way, I love your take. Get on YouTube sometime and search for Kevin Harlan’s best calls. You’ll laugh so hard you’ll cry.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm

CharVike wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:32 am
I have always said one player can't do it alone. Football is a team sport to the fullest. Every QB needs players including Farve. He couldn't get that roster to the Super Bowl and he's a HOFer which was the most disappointing part of that core team.
Right, but my point is, if the team is going to pay top dollar at QB, the QB should be a guy capable of elevating their play against the best teams they'll face and in the most critical moments. Favre did that.

Of course, Favre also threw the pick at the critical moment. I blame him only for throwing back across his body on that play. But I blame the coaches for putting him in that position in the first place by having 12 men on the field before that, which caused the penalty that forced them to try to run another play to pick up the yardage necessary to get back into solid field goal range.

Favre was worth the money. So far, Cousins hasn't been for the most part.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:58 am
We are going to get to the point where there will be enough film on Kubiak's offense that we won't get even that first half boost anymore, and something needs to change quickly or it is going to be a really long season.
Maybe another long season is what the overall team needs to make it clear substantial change is needed.

If Cook deals with nagging injuries all year I think the situation on offense is even more dire than the stats you cite indicate. Cook has always been good at making something out of nothing. Mattison for the most part is a north-south runner with some moderate cutting ability, but he's not nearly as inventive as a healthy Dalvin Cook.

And since so much of the offense goes through Cook and the run game, if Cook isn't in there the offense is going to struggle even more.

I'd go so far as to say if Cook isn't healthy or can't go against the Lions this Sunday we'll see the first indications of your prediction start to become apparent. The Lions have not been great against the run or on defense generally, but if they can focus more on disrupting Cousins and stacking the LOS because they don't have to worry about getting hit deep, that's exactly what they'll do. It could lead to some pretty ugly results.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:18 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm
CharVike wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:32 am
I have always said one player can't do it alone. Football is a team sport to the fullest. Every QB needs players including Farve. He couldn't get that roster to the Super Bowl and he's a HOFer which was the most disappointing part of that core team.
Right, but my point is, if the team is going to pay top dollar at QB, the QB should be a guy capable of elevating their play against the best teams they'll face and in the most critical moments. Favre did that.

Of course, Favre also threw the pick at the critical moment. I blame him only for throwing back across his body on that play. But I blame the coaches for putting him in that position in the first place by having 12 men on the field before that, which caused the penalty that forced them to try to run another play to pick up the yardage necessary to get back into solid field goal range.

Favre was worth the money. So far, Cousins hasn't been for the most part.
Farve was worth it. That team was fun to watch. With him we were never out of a game. I was trying to point out the talent on that team. Hutch was a great player before Farve arrived. There was no elevating him. Same with AP. This elevated is overrated. Do you actually think a QB can elevate some bum to a good player? You can make Dru Samia a fantastic G? I don't. Dehaun Watson is considered a great player and winner. That team won 4 games with him last year. That's a loser if there ever was one. He didn't elevate that team at all. Our team last year won 7 and that was a team with the worst defense we ever had. Winning 7 was a miracle but Cousins had nothing to do with that? Jefferson was great as a rookie but that had nothing to do with the guy throwing the ball? This year Cousins march us into an 85% FG range to win the game. The stiff missed it. Cousins gets the lose. Jackson marched his kicker into range and the guy boots a 66 yarder and Jackson gets the win. You could say Jackson elevated that guy and Cousins turned our guy into a stiff. I don't buy that. Players still need to play.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:03 pm

Frozen Rope wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:09 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:24 pm

Yes Teddy was available he's always available. We have been in rebuild for how long? Last year was a rebuild #### show. Rookie CBs are never the best move. Rookie T converted to G is never a good move until they get some size and a base. That takes years. You blame everything on the QB. There is more to this game than the QB. Yes we could have traded for Case. He couldn't make it with the best D in football because he wasn't a very good passer. We could have grabbed the guy Washington cut. He can't beat out old man Rothlisberger. I wanted Jones in the draft when he fell to us. He's a rookie starter and has struggled. All rookies struggle and he might be a bust. The light might go on also. Panthers and Broncos and the Saints will get there chances. I don't think they have a QB that can beat a good team. Teddy might lead the Broncos to the Super Bowl. Might as in won't. Once the Bronco fans start getting POed and don't show up they will put the kid they have in. You blaming the QB on every lose needs to be put to bed. It never should have been taken out of the bed. This game goes way beyond one position. Goff took the Rams to the Super Bowl. I don't see the Lions making it with him this year. They are too weak.
CharVike, don’t ever leave this board. You understand the game and don’t try and drown us in stats. I enjoy your posts in particular along with a few other veterans. It’s tough to have an intelligent dialogue with Stump. He is so jaded and obsessed with Cousins that he can’t concede the truth that we aren’t going anywhere with this Oline. I really feel sorry for him. His life mission is to convince everyone what a garbage QB Cousins is, and come hell or high water, he concedes absolutely nothing. He never once has ever conceded anything.when Cousins does get time and has a really good game, not a peep out of him. I can see why PHP left the board. Too bad, I enjoyed his posts. But then things got personal and I can see why. Do a little self reflection Stump. Just absorb a little of what I’m saying. This is supposed to be fun. On another note, Cousins arm is fine and physically he’s in the best shape of his career.
C’mon back PHP, I’ll have a good dialogue with ya. And FSL, where you been? I used to really enjoy your posts on the Washington Stadium thread.
I'm here lurking buddy. Good to see you round here too.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:23 pm

CharVike wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:18 pm
Farve was worth it. That team was fun to watch. With him we were never out of a game. I was trying to point out the talent on that team. Hutch was a great player before Farve arrived. There was no elevating him. Same with AP. This elevated is overrated. Do you actually think a QB can elevate some bum to a good player? You can make Dru Samia a fantastic G? I don't. Dehaun Watson is considered a great player and winner. That team won 4 games with him last year. That's a loser if there ever was one. He didn't elevate that team at all. Our team last year won 7 and that was a team with the worst defense we ever had. Winning 7 was a miracle but Cousins had nothing to do with that? Jefferson was great as a rookie but that had nothing to do with the guy throwing the ball? This year Cousins march us into an 85% FG range to win the game. The stiff missed it. Cousins gets the lose. Jackson marched his kicker into range and the guy boots a 66 yarder and Jackson gets the win. You could say Jackson elevated that guy and Cousins turned our guy into a stiff. I don't buy that. Players still need to play.
The year before Favre arrived the Vikings did finish 10-6 and 1st in the North under Childress with many of the same players you mentioned. However, they lost in the wildcard round at home by a convincing margin to the Eagles.

The first year with Favre, they finished 12-4, won convincingly in the divisional round at home, and barely lost away to a very good New Orleans team that went on to win the Superbowl.

So what was the main difference in your view between the 2008 team and its results and the 2009 team and its results if it wasn't the addition of a QB who could elevate the team around him even more?

I'm done defending Cousins. He's a great QB when playing against poor defenses and weaker teams and an equally ineffective QB when playing against better defenses and teams. The Vikings can't get to a Superbowl with him, much less win one. It sucks, but its the truth all the same.

That isn't to say Cousins is the only reason the team can't beat the better teams it faces. He's not. He's just not going to be a reason those results will change in the future. To get to that point, where the Vikings are capable of beating those teams more consistently, they're going to need either a more reasonably priced QB who plays at Cousins' current level, which will allow them to go out and get the better players they'd need to put around a QB like that to be able to compete and win against those types of teams, or they need to find a QB who can elevate his game, and thus improve the overall chances of a correspondingly weaker supporting cast, against those kinds of teams.

Paying a QB top dollar whose results are highly correlated with losses against better teams is not going to get it done regardless of his results against weaker teams.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:31 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:43 am
VikingLord wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:36 am


Totally agree. In the end the flags come out because of things the Vikings themselves are doing. Refs can throw flags for imaginary infractions, but I haven't seen any yet this year. In every case a call has gone against the Vikings so far, it's been justified.
There have been a couple of roughing the passer calls that have gone for the Vikings that were complete BS. The one in this last game where a defender fell down behind Cousins and his teammate brushed Cousins causing him to step back and trip over the guy on the ground was a terrible call.
I'd also argue that Smith interfered with the Seattle WR on the hail mary late in the 4th. It was close but it could have been called. Definitely interfered more than the non PI against Thielen.
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Re: Browns @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:31 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:31 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:43 am


There have been a couple of roughing the passer calls that have gone for the Vikings that were complete BS. The one in this last game where a defender fell down behind Cousins and his teammate brushed Cousins causing him to step back and trip over the guy on the ground was a terrible call.
I'd also argue that Smith interfered with the Seattle WR on the hail mary late in the 4th. It was close but it could have been called. Definitely interfered more than the non PI against Thielen.
Absolutely. When I watched the play in real time I thought Smith was going to be flagged for sure. He was beat deep, never turned around, and just swatted at the arms of the receiver. Lucky for him the timing was close, because like you I felt he got there a hair early. Could have easily been called.

Not sure that was worse than what happened to Thielen on the final play against the Browns though. He literally got run through by the Browns DB and never even had a chance to make a play on the ball. Also, I don't recall the refs being inconsistent in terms of PI calls in the Seattle game. They called it even and consistently on both sides. But against the Browns I felt that wasn't the case.
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