Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:49 pm

psjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
I'm in the "Kirk Cousins is a good-to-very-good-to-outstanding QB most times but likely won't carry this team on his back to a SB victory" camp. I certainly don't mind that he's our QB, as there are only a handful of QB's that can carry their team through the playoffs. Would love to have one of those, but Kirk is no slouch IMO. Is he overpaid? Maybe. But as George Thorogood says, that don't confront me.
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:38 am


:beerock: :beerock: :beerock:
"Since his awful 6-game start last year, Cousins has played 13 games. He has 32 TD passes and 3 picks in those games" has gotten us bupkus, zero, nada, squat for the post season. And therein lies the issue some? most? have with Kirk, including the media.
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:58 am
Thanks for the reply pointing out just how good Kirk has been. I'm so tempted to make some sarcastic posts regarding this, but I will resist that temptation.
Too soon. Don't get me wrong, he's been outstanding this season to date. But unless and until Kirk puts together a "majority of the season" level of outstanding play, including having a Rogers-Brady-esque game against a top opponent or two (in primetime would be nice), and carrying the team if need be to a playoff win or two, folks will have issues with him as the starter on a team seeking Super Bowl win number one.

He's probably in the same spot as Derek Carr and a few others - they're at the point in their careers that they are going to have to win in the playoffs to cement any kind of status as a "top tier" QB in most/all eyes.
He has been vastly superior to Derek Carr. I do know that Carr is off to a good start this year though and good for him. I'm not asking for anybody to declare Cousins top tier even though I believe he is. I just want them to realize he's good.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm

psjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
"Since his awful 6-game start last year, Cousins has played 13 games. He has 32 TD passes and 3 picks in those games" has gotten us bupkus, zero, nada, squat for the post season. And therein lies the issue some? most? have with Kirk, including the media.
Are you serious?

Did you honestly expect Kirk Cousins to lift last year’s team, with one of the worst defenses in franchise history, into the playoffs? A mashup of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers couldn’t have lifted that team.

And still, if they had beaten the Bears in Week 15, they would’ve made the playoffs at 8-8 instead of the Bears. Instead, the defense ramped up the suck to new levels, giving up nearly 1,400 yards and 120 points over the last 3 games. But yeah, Cousins’ play got us bupkus.

Hell, the fact that the Vikings actually have gone 7-6 over those 13 games is a minor miracle.

If we’re gonna assign blame, let’s put it where it belongs … with certified defensive genius Mike Zimmer’s god-awful defense.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:57 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
psjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
"Since his awful 6-game start last year, Cousins has played 13 games. He has 32 TD passes and 3 picks in those games" has gotten us bupkus, zero, nada, squat for the post season. And therein lies the issue some? most? have with Kirk, including the media.
Are you serious?

Did you honestly expect Kirk Cousins to lift last year’s team, with one of the worst defenses in franchise history, into the playoffs? A mashup of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers couldn’t have lifted that team.
Except Tennessee's defense was just as bad and they went to the playoffs after winning 10 games...
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
And still, if they had beaten the Bears in Week 15, they would’ve made the playoffs at 8-8 instead of the Bears. Instead, the defense ramped up the suck to new levels, giving up nearly 1,400 yards and 120 points over the last 3 games. But yeah, Cousins’ play got us bupkus.
Wait, I thought a combination of Brady and Rodgers couldn't have gotten the Vikings to the playoffs? Sounds like you are implying there was an opportunity to do just that.

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
If we’re gonna assign blame, let’s put it where it belongs … with certified defensive genius Mike Zimmer’s god-awful defense.
How many of the 11 starters from last years defense are starting on a team this year? How many are on a practice squad and not even on an active roster? How many aren't even on a practice squad?

The defense this year is talented enough where it should be better than it played in the first two games, but last year a combination of Bud Grant and Bill Bellicheck couldn't have made that talent work. It was Smith, Harris, Kendricks and a bunch of backups, practice squad guys, and guys who didn't belong in the NFL for most of the season. Against the Bears to got to the playoffs it was just Smith and Harris, and the Vikings had a chance to win with almost 3 minutes left if they could have just pick up a 4th and 1.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by psjordan » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:26 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
psjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
"Since his awful 6-game start last year, Cousins has played 13 games. He has 32 TD passes and 3 picks in those games" has gotten us bupkus, zero, nada, squat for the post season. And therein lies the issue some? most? have with Kirk, including the media.
Are you serious?
Your indignation shows you missed my point completely, or you didn't read my first sentence.

I do not have issues with Cousins, his play, "his" lack of post-season wins (no sh#$ it has to do with more than the QB).

I was pointing out why some? a lot? most? folks/fans/media/etc. have issues with putting Cousins in the top echelon of QB's.

"He" is going to have to win in the postseason to change that narrative. I'm pointing to his career, not last season. It's just the way the world of sports works.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:40 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:57 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm

Are you serious?

Did you honestly expect Kirk Cousins to lift last year’s team, with one of the worst defenses in franchise history, into the playoffs? A mashup of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers couldn’t have lifted that team.
Except Tennessee's defense was just as bad and they went to the playoffs after winning 10 games...
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
And still, if they had beaten the Bears in Week 15, they would’ve made the playoffs at 8-8 instead of the Bears. Instead, the defense ramped up the suck to new levels, giving up nearly 1,400 yards and 120 points over the last 3 games. But yeah, Cousins’ play got us bupkus.
Wait, I thought a combination of Brady and Rodgers couldn't have gotten the Vikings to the playoffs? Sounds like you are implying there was an opportunity to do just that.
Yes, there was … almost entirely because of the play of Kirk Cousins and the offense. Thanks for making my point.
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:57 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm
If we’re gonna assign blame, let’s put it where it belongs … with certified defensive genius Mike Zimmer’s god-awful defense.
How many of the 11 starters from last years defense are starting on a team this year? How many are on a practice squad and not even on an active roster? How many aren't even on a practice squad?

The defense this year is talented enough where it should be better than it played in the first two games, but last year a combination of Bud Grant and Bill Bellicheck couldn't have made that talent work. It was Smith, Harris, Kendricks and a bunch of backups, practice squad guys, and guys who didn't belong in the NFL for most of the season. Against the Bears to got to the playoffs it was just Smith and Harris, and the Vikings had a chance to win with almost 3 minutes left if they could have just pick up a 4th and 1.
Once again, you’ve made my point. Never mind that we let the all-world David Montgomery run all over us and gave up 33 points at home to Mitchell Freaking Trubisky. You instead choose to place all the blame on one play and one player. And by the way, who was it who arrogantly put that substandard defensive roster together and pretended he could contend against the Aaron Rodgerses of the world using his brilliant schemes, even with rookie corners, Hardy Nickerson and Shamar Stephen? That’s right. Mike Zimmer.

You should really just admit what is inherently obvious to the most casual observer — you loathe Kirk Cousins and will never give him credit for anything positive, even when it’s deserved.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by psjordan » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:00 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:49 pm
psjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
He's probably in the same spot as Derek Carr and a few others - they're at the point in their careers that they are going to have to win in the playoffs to cement any kind of status as a "top tier" QB in most/all eyes.
He has been vastly superior to Derek Carr. I do know that Carr is off to a good start this year though and good for him. I'm not asking for anybody to declare Cousins top tier even though I believe he is. I just want them to realize he's good.
Not that I buy where this ex-GM ranks Cousins (I'd rank him much higher, but the author does give him kudos), but here's an "objective" ranking of QB's after each week:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/320 ... -takeaways

I think my take (and maybe other Vikes fans' take) is that Cousins not only should be ranked higher based on play but also based on "improvement" of play. Or "elimination of frustrating plays". Or something like that. Kirk has done an outstanding job YTD in that category.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:46 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:40 am

You should really just admit what is inherently obvious to the most casual observer — you loathe Kirk Cousins and will never give him credit for anything positive, even when it’s deserved.
I give him a lot of credit for the 7-9 season, what are you talking about?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:40 am
And by the way, who was it who arrogantly put that substandard defensive roster together and pretended he could contend against the Aaron Rodgerses of the world using his brilliant schemes, even with rookie corners, Hardy Nickerson and Shamar Stephen?
What were his other options with the complete lack of cap space and 0 starters drafted on defense since 2015?

Look, if Zimmer is given great starters on defense and if the offense plays great he can compete for a SB. He isn't Bill Bellichek or Andy Reed, but if Doug Pederson can win a Super Bowl, Zimmer certainly can.

Am I doing it right?
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:31 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:46 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:40 am

You should really just admit what is inherently obvious to the most casual observer — you loathe Kirk Cousins and will never give him credit for anything positive, even when it’s deserved.
I give him a lot of credit for the 7-9 season, what are you talking about?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:40 am
And by the way, who was it who arrogantly put that substandard defensive roster together and pretended he could contend against the Aaron Rodgerses of the world using his brilliant schemes, even with rookie corners, Hardy Nickerson and Shamar Stephen?
What were his other options with the complete lack of cap space and 0 starters drafted on defense since 2015?

Look, if Zimmer is given great starters on defense and if the offense plays great he can compete for a SB. He isn't Bill Bellichek or Andy Reed, but if Doug Pederson can win a Super Bowl, Zimmer certainly can.

Am I doing it right?
0 starters? Whose fault is that?

He spent first-round picks on Mike Hughes and Jeff Gladney. How’d that work out?

He drafted Cameron Dantzler, the highest rated corner in the entire NFL for the month of December, only to bench him in favor of the worst corner in the NFL thus far according to PFF.

And the Vikings had far less cap space this year than 2020, yet managed to sign a few defensive players.

So no … you’re not doing it right. As usual, you’re using half truths and provocative statements to make points that aren’t actually points.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:04 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:31 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:46 am

I give him a lot of credit for the 7-9 season, what are you talking about?



What were his other options with the complete lack of cap space and 0 starters drafted on defense since 2015?

Look, if Zimmer is given great starters on defense and if the offense plays great he can compete for a SB. He isn't Bill Bellichek or Andy Reed, but if Doug Pederson can win a Super Bowl, Zimmer certainly can.

Am I doing it right?
0 starters? Whose fault is that?

He spent first-round picks on Mike Hughes and Jeff Gladney. How’d that work out?

He drafted Cameron Dantzler, the highest rated corner in the entire NFL for the month of December, only to bench him in favor of the worst corner in the NFL thus far according to PFF.

And the Vikings had far less cap space this year than 2020, yet managed to sign a few defensive players.

So no … you’re not doing it right. As usual, you’re using half truths and provocative statements to make points that aren’t actually points.
He spent those picks on Hughes and Gladney? He wrote up the contracts that limited the ability to sign or keep veterans? What exactly is Rick's role with this team?

Let me try this again, because I wasn't obvious enough before. Zimmer is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a SB once since he became HC. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling due to limitations of his QB, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His defense did stop Seattle from scoring in the second half for a big win though, and he is clearly a coach of the year candidate. Sure he is no Bill Bellichek, but who are we going to get that is better?
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by vikeinmontana » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:04 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:31 am

0 starters? Whose fault is that?

He spent first-round picks on Mike Hughes and Jeff Gladney. How’d that work out?

He drafted Cameron Dantzler, the highest rated corner in the entire NFL for the month of December, only to bench him in favor of the worst corner in the NFL thus far according to PFF.

And the Vikings had far less cap space this year than 2020, yet managed to sign a few defensive players.

So no … you’re not doing it right. As usual, you’re using half truths and provocative statements to make points that aren’t actually points.
He spent those picks on Hughes and Gladney? He wrote up the contracts that limited the ability to sign or keep veterans? What exactly is Rick's role with this team?

Let me try this again, because I wasn't obvious enough before. Zimmer is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a SB once since he became HC. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling due to limitations of his QB, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His defense did stop Seattle from scoring in the second half for a big win though, and he is clearly a coach of the year candidate. Sure he is no Bill Bellichek, but who are we going to get that is better?
Man, that is a take.

I respect your posts overall. You usually try and back up claims with research and in other cases are pretty objective. But I think you're starting to let your feelings of our QB situation really sway your thinking.

Zimmer is "unlucky"? Football is the ultimate TEAM game. They all need one another to be successful. A Cousins supporter could just as easily say he is "unlucky" to be playing for an old-school, defensive minded coach like Zimmer. You say he is limited to his play calling because of his QB. How do you know that? Looking at last week, it appears that if we open the playbook a bit Cousins is more than capable. Couldn't a Cousins supporter say he's limited in what he does because of coaching and playcalling?

Our O-lines have been bad. Spielman is to blame. But so is Zimmer. Coaching in the NFL is hard. Coaches need a lot more than luck. They need the ability to coach up groups and always have them improving from one game to the next. It's not like every good team in the NFL has all-star offensive lines. Many do. Others have great coaching. Some have dominant defenses. Others have elite QB play. But when is all said and done, it's on the coach to use what he has to make the team most successful. Or they lose their job and become a coordinator on another team.

Bottom line is I'm far from a passionate Cousins supporter. I'm far from a passionate Zimmer supporter. I think they BOTH have strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not willing to throw one under the bus in favor of another. I want them both to perform to the best of their abilities. And through three games, from a fans perspective, (where we know far less about what is going on than we like to admit) I think Cousins is performing amazingly. Hoping he can continue and we keep getting better every week.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:57 am

vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:04 am

He spent those picks on Hughes and Gladney? He wrote up the contracts that limited the ability to sign or keep veterans? What exactly is Rick's role with this team?

Let me try this again, because I wasn't obvious enough before. Zimmer is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a SB once since he became HC. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling due to limitations of his QB, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His defense did stop Seattle from scoring in the second half for a big win though, and he is clearly a coach of the year candidate. Sure he is no Bill Bellichek, but who are we going to get that is better?
Man, that is a take.

I respect your posts overall. You usually try and back up claims with research and in other cases are pretty objective. But I think you're starting to let your feelings of our QB situation really sway your thinking.

Zimmer is "unlucky"? Football is the ultimate TEAM game. They all need one another to be successful. A Cousins supporter could just as easily say he is "unlucky" to be playing for an old-school, defensive minded coach like Zimmer. You say he is limited to his play calling because of his QB. How do you know that? Looking at last week, it appears that if we open the playbook a bit Cousins is more than capable. Couldn't a Cousins supporter say he's limited in what he does because of coaching and playcalling?

Our O-lines have been bad. Spielman is to blame. But so is Zimmer. Coaching in the NFL is hard. Coaches need a lot more than luck. They need the ability to coach up groups and always have them improving from one game to the next. It's not like every good team in the NFL has all-star offensive lines. Many do. Others have great coaching. Some have dominant defenses. Others have elite QB play. But when is all said and done, it's on the coach to use what he has to make the team most successful. Or they lose their job and become a coordinator on another team.

Bottom line is I'm far from a passionate Cousins supporter. I'm far from a passionate Zimmer supporter. I think they BOTH have strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not willing to throw one under the bus in favor of another. I want them both to perform to the best of their abilities. And through three games, from a fans perspective, (where we know far less about what is going on than we like to admit) I think Cousins is performing amazingly. Hoping he can continue and we keep getting better every week.
He doesn’t know that.

I’ve been wanting to post this, and I may start a new thread for it because it’s an important topic. It comes from Arif Hasan at The Athletic. It’s behind a paywall, so I’ll post an excerpt.
The Vikings’ win against Seattle might have cemented what fans have suspected would be the case for 2021 — that the Vikings are an offense-forward team that needs to be supported by its defense, not the other way around. The team is a long way away from what it was striving to be in 2018, when it signed Kirk Cousins — a team with a top-tier defense supported by an offense that does enough to win.

What might make this work is new offensive coordinator Klint Kubiak.

The offense is playing like one of the better ones in the NFL, and it looks very little like the offenses of the past two seasons that have defined the team and have kept hope alive for a competitive Vikings roster. Nevertheless, the offense is performing at a high level. The Vikings rank seventh in the NFL in expected points added per play and sixth in expected points added per passing dropback. They rank ninth in points per drive despite having the second-worst starting field position in the NFL, and Cousins ranks fourth in the NFL in passer rating. The offense seems to be rolling.

The Vikings have done this while shying away from the things Cousins has traditionally been good at. Their play-action rate is one of the lowest in the NFL, Cousins ranks second-to-last in deep ball rate and has thus far stayed away from the sideline more than ever. Their 30-point showing against the Seahawks was the fourth best among NFL teams in per-play efficiency by expected points in Week 3.
Hasan breaks down several plays in the article, something he’s very good at doing.

Unlike some on this board, I don’t claim to be an expert at the NFL. I also don’t cherry pick obscure, out-of-context stats to support a narrow-minded narrative that I refuse to set aside when faced with actual facts. For example, not more than a week ago, I said on this board that we don’t have a very good play caller — this article shows conclusively how wrong I was about that. Klint Kubiak appears to be the first OC we’ve had who actually understands how to play to Cousins’ strengths. As a result, Kirk is off to the best start of his career. I am perfectly happy to admit to being wrong about this opinion, and it’s far from the first time I’ve done so.

What I AM good at is searching out and finding the analyses of experts such as Hasan and using those to inform my opinion.

As for Rick Spielman, it’s completely ridiculous to say that Zimmer has no say in who’s drafted. The Vikings’ failures in recent drafts (Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney, et.al.) are on both of them, as are their successes (Cook, O’Neill, Jefferson). However, Zimmer’s week-to-week roster decisions are completely his responsibility. When you start Brashaud Breeland, the worst-rated PFF corner in the NFL with an overall grade of less than 30, and you fail to send out Cam Dantzler for a single snap against the Seahawks, you have to own that decision. Yet Zimmer refuses to do that. The NFL’s highest-rated cornerback for December 2020 has suddenly “lost his confidence,” as Zimmer asserts? Gets scratched from the active roster because he refuses to play special teams? I call bullish!t. Zimmer put Dantzler in for 16 snaps against the Cardinals when Breeland was ailing (Hopkinsitis, perhaps?), and he out-played Breeland by a mile. Then — zero snaps against Seattle, even though Metcalf was owning Breeland. Actually, anybody Breeland was covering owned Breeland.

I’d simply like Mike Zimmer to explain it. But he won’t.

Bottom line, and back to the topic at hand — Kirk Cousins is playing the best football of his career. I don’t give a damn what his won-lost record is. In his 10th season, Cousins is somehow elevating his game, and I for one am happy about it. The guy is balling. The stats bear it out, the eye test bears it out, the experts bear it out, his teammates bear it out, and even Mike Zimmer — historically no lover of Kirk Cousins — bears it out. I’ll go with all that over the opinions of a few haters.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:51 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:57 am
vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am

Man, that is a take.

I respect your posts overall. You usually try and back up claims with research and in other cases are pretty objective. But I think you're starting to let your feelings of our QB situation really sway your thinking.

Zimmer is "unlucky"? Football is the ultimate TEAM game. They all need one another to be successful. A Cousins supporter could just as easily say he is "unlucky" to be playing for an old-school, defensive minded coach like Zimmer. You say he is limited to his play calling because of his QB. How do you know that? Looking at last week, it appears that if we open the playbook a bit Cousins is more than capable. Couldn't a Cousins supporter say he's limited in what he does because of coaching and playcalling?

Our O-lines have been bad. Spielman is to blame. But so is Zimmer. Coaching in the NFL is hard. Coaches need a lot more than luck. They need the ability to coach up groups and always have them improving from one game to the next. It's not like every good team in the NFL has all-star offensive lines. Many do. Others have great coaching. Some have dominant defenses. Others have elite QB play. But when is all said and done, it's on the coach to use what he has to make the team most successful. Or they lose their job and become a coordinator on another team.

Bottom line is I'm far from a passionate Cousins supporter. I'm far from a passionate Zimmer supporter. I think they BOTH have strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not willing to throw one under the bus in favor of another. I want them both to perform to the best of their abilities. And through three games, from a fans perspective, (where we know far less about what is going on than we like to admit) I think Cousins is performing amazingly. Hoping he can continue and we keep getting better every week.
He doesn’t know that.

I’ve been wanting to post this, and I may start a new thread for it because it’s an important topic. It comes from Arif Hasan at The Athletic. It’s behind a paywall, so I’ll post an excerpt.
The Vikings’ win against Seattle might have cemented what fans have suspected would be the case for 2021 — that the Vikings are an offense-forward team that needs to be supported by its defense, not the other way around. The team is a long way away from what it was striving to be in 2018, when it signed Kirk Cousins — a team with a top-tier defense supported by an offense that does enough to win.

What might make this work is new offensive coordinator Klint Kubiak.

The offense is playing like one of the better ones in the NFL, and it looks very little like the offenses of the past two seasons that have defined the team and have kept hope alive for a competitive Vikings roster. Nevertheless, the offense is performing at a high level. The Vikings rank seventh in the NFL in expected points added per play and sixth in expected points added per passing dropback. They rank ninth in points per drive despite having the second-worst starting field position in the NFL, and Cousins ranks fourth in the NFL in passer rating. The offense seems to be rolling.

The Vikings have done this while shying away from the things Cousins has traditionally been good at. Their play-action rate is one of the lowest in the NFL, Cousins ranks second-to-last in deep ball rate and has thus far stayed away from the sideline more than ever. Their 30-point showing against the Seahawks was the fourth best among NFL teams in per-play efficiency by expected points in Week 3.
Hasan breaks down several plays in the article, something he’s very good at doing.

Unlike some on this board, I don’t claim to be an expert at the NFL. I also don’t cherry pick obscure, out-of-context stats to support a narrow-minded narrative that I refuse to set aside when faced with actual facts. For example, not more than a week ago, I said on this board that we don’t have a very good play caller — this article shows conclusively how wrong I was about that. Klint Kubiak appears to be the first OC we’ve had who actually understands how to play to Cousins’ strengths. As a result, Kirk is off to the best start of his career. I am perfectly happy to admit to being wrong about this opinion, and it’s far from the first time I’ve done so.

What I AM good at is searching out and finding the analyses of experts such as Hasan and using those to inform my opinion.

As for Rick Spielman, it’s completely ridiculous to say that Zimmer has no say in who’s drafted. The Vikings’ failures in recent drafts (Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney, et.al.) are on both of them, as are their successes (Cook, O’Neill, Jefferson). However, Zimmer’s week-to-week roster decisions are completely his responsibility. When you start Brashaud Breeland, the worst-rated PFF corner in the NFL with an overall grade of less than 30, and you fail to send out Cam Dantzler for a single snap against the Seahawks, you have to own that decision. Yet Zimmer refuses to do that. The NFL’s highest-rated cornerback for December 2020 has suddenly “lost his confidence,” as Zimmer asserts? Gets scratched from the active roster because he refuses to play special teams? I call bullish!t. Zimmer put Dantzler in for 16 snaps against the Cardinals when Breeland was ailing (Hopkinsitis, perhaps?), and he out-played Breeland by a mile. Then — zero snaps against Seattle, even though Metcalf was owning Breeland. Actually, anybody Breeland was covering owned Breeland.

I’d simply like Mike Zimmer to explain it. But he won’t.

Bottom line, and back to the topic at hand — Kirk Cousins is playing the best football of his career. I don’t give a damn what his won-lost record is. In his 10th season, Cousins is somehow elevating his game, and I for one am happy about it. The guy is balling. The stats bear it out, the eye test bears it out, the experts bear it out, his teammates bear it out, and even Mike Zimmer — historically no lover of Kirk Cousins — bears it out. I’ll go with all that over the opinions of a few haters.
The offense is ranked 12th in scoring efficiency, not 9th like Hassan claims.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... se=offense

I have also made that very same point about the deep ball passing that Hassan makes.


Interesting that you take issue with Zimmer sticking with Breeland in the Seattle game. Do you feel that putting in Dantzler in the 2nd half would have kept Seattle to negative points versus the 0 the Vikings held them to with Breeland in the game? What a strange complaint.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:55 am

vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:04 am

He spent those picks on Hughes and Gladney? He wrote up the contracts that limited the ability to sign or keep veterans? What exactly is Rick's role with this team?

Let me try this again, because I wasn't obvious enough before. Zimmer is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a SB once since he became HC. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling due to limitations of his QB, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His defense did stop Seattle from scoring in the second half for a big win though, and he is clearly a coach of the year candidate. Sure he is no Bill Bellichek, but who are we going to get that is better?
Man, that is a take.
It is pretty crazy isn't it?

Let me change that take up a bit:

Cousins is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a playoff win once since he became QB. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His put up a ton of points against the worst defense in the NFL though, and he is clearly a MVP candidate. Sure he is no Tom Brady, but who are we going to get that is better?
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:12 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:51 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:57 am

He doesn’t know that.

I’ve been wanting to post this, and I may start a new thread for it because it’s an important topic. It comes from Arif Hasan at The Athletic. It’s behind a paywall, so I’ll post an excerpt.



Hasan breaks down several plays in the article, something he’s very good at doing.

Unlike some on this board, I don’t claim to be an expert at the NFL. I also don’t cherry pick obscure, out-of-context stats to support a narrow-minded narrative that I refuse to set aside when faced with actual facts. For example, not more than a week ago, I said on this board that we don’t have a very good play caller — this article shows conclusively how wrong I was about that. Klint Kubiak appears to be the first OC we’ve had who actually understands how to play to Cousins’ strengths. As a result, Kirk is off to the best start of his career. I am perfectly happy to admit to being wrong about this opinion, and it’s far from the first time I’ve done so.

What I AM good at is searching out and finding the analyses of experts such as Hasan and using those to inform my opinion.

As for Rick Spielman, it’s completely ridiculous to say that Zimmer has no say in who’s drafted. The Vikings’ failures in recent drafts (Treadwell, Hughes, Gladney, et.al.) are on both of them, as are their successes (Cook, O’Neill, Jefferson). However, Zimmer’s week-to-week roster decisions are completely his responsibility. When you start Brashaud Breeland, the worst-rated PFF corner in the NFL with an overall grade of less than 30, and you fail to send out Cam Dantzler for a single snap against the Seahawks, you have to own that decision. Yet Zimmer refuses to do that. The NFL’s highest-rated cornerback for December 2020 has suddenly “lost his confidence,” as Zimmer asserts? Gets scratched from the active roster because he refuses to play special teams? I call bullish!t. Zimmer put Dantzler in for 16 snaps against the Cardinals when Breeland was ailing (Hopkinsitis, perhaps?), and he out-played Breeland by a mile. Then — zero snaps against Seattle, even though Metcalf was owning Breeland. Actually, anybody Breeland was covering owned Breeland.

I’d simply like Mike Zimmer to explain it. But he won’t.

Bottom line, and back to the topic at hand — Kirk Cousins is playing the best football of his career. I don’t give a damn what his won-lost record is. In his 10th season, Cousins is somehow elevating his game, and I for one am happy about it. The guy is balling. The stats bear it out, the eye test bears it out, the experts bear it out, his teammates bear it out, and even Mike Zimmer — historically no lover of Kirk Cousins — bears it out. I’ll go with all that over the opinions of a few haters.
The offense is ranked 12th in scoring efficiency, not 9th like Hassan claims.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... se=offense

I have also made that very same point about the deep ball passing that Hassan makes.


Interesting that you take issue with Zimmer sticking with Breeland in the Seattle game. Do you feel that putting in Dantzler in the 2nd half would have kept Seattle to negative points versus the 0 the Vikings held them to with Breeland in the game? What a strange complaint.
Fact: Bashaud Breeland is ranked 108th out of 108 qualifying cornerbacks by PFF. He’s given up a passer rating of 152.1 when targeted. If you consider that a strange complaint, well, I don’t really give a damn. Maybe I think all your complaining about Kirk Cousins is strange, especially since he’s the 2nd ranked passer in the NFL by QBR.

Fact: The Vikings’ offense held the ball for more than 22 minutes in the second half against Seattle. THAT, far more than any contribution by Bashaud Breeland, led to the Vikings shutting out Seattle.

Opinion: If the worst corner in the NFL had been sitting on the bench instead of Dantzler during the FIRST HALF, then maybe DK Metcalf wouldn’t have gone off the way he did.

Final point: Yes, you’ve noted the lack of deep ball passing. But you’ve used it to criticize Cousins, not give props to the Vikings offense.
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Re: Seattle Game Thoughts and Predictions

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:22 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:55 am
vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am

Man, that is a take.
It is pretty crazy isn't it?

Let me change that take up a bit:

Cousins is just unlucky and has only had a team that even came close to being good enough to compete for a playoff win once since he became QB. The Olines he has been given have all been terrible, he has been limited by play calling, and recently his defenses haven't had the talent to stop teams. His put up a ton of points against the worst defense in the NFL though, and he is clearly a MVP candidate. Sure he is no Tom Brady, but who are we going to get that is better?
I get where you're coming from, but is it possible to just let Cousins and the Vikings play it out and see what happens this year?
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