Vikings @ Bengals Post game

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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:29 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm


Notice the drastic jump in under center numbers compared to the Shanahan offenses? They arent even close to each other. This isnt a Shanahan offense. This is a "1970's Mike Zimmer control the clock and play good defense conservative offense". His QB operated just fine in a true Shanahan style offense but also played for the Redskins which didnt help his cause. Just like Matt Stafford will have a good year under Sean McVay. Because McVay is a mastermind at knowing how to balance offenses and is working with a QB that is nearly identical to Kirk.
You didn't compare Cousins under center snaps to his shotgun in Shanahan's offense to offenses with Zimmer as the HC, you compared Cousins' snaps in Gruden's offense to the offenses under Zimmer.

Are you okay?

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm
I mean do you honestly believe that he wants to be chucking it all over the field like the Buffalo Bills risking incompletions that stop the clock?
No, with Kirk Cousins and not Josh Allen Zimmer for sure doesn't want to be chucking it all over the field. Maybe if he had a QB of that caliber he would or maybe he wouldn't. I doubt we ever find out.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm
He is obsessed with his defense and wants to keep them off the field.
Again, are you okay? This sentence makes no sense.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm
He has done nothing but look for big name offensive coordinators that can run the offense for him and he can keep his focus on the defense.
I wish he had done that this year, and the fact he didn't and instead went with his buddy's son should get him, along with the GM who allowed it, fired.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm
And again like I've said before, Zim hit his peak in 2017. Since 2017, his defense has done nothing but go backwards to the point where they hit bottom of the barrel last year (partly due to injuries as well).
It is hard to maintain a #1 defense year in and year out, but that D was #3 in real scoring in 2018 and was #8 in 2019. There was a big dropoff in 2020, but we lost a lot of key players on defense in free agency and I am not sure Rick has drafted a good defensive player since 2015.
It takes talent to maintain a good defense, no matter who the coach is.

u
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 pm
his guy cant even bring us a good defense anymore let alone good head coaching so why is he still here? There is no defending him at this point. He's the next Marvin Lewis. His teams are just good enough to get by and not cause him to get fired.

I wish you could realize the same about the GM and QB you constantly defend on here. Just not good enough.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:38 am

TSonn wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:11 pm
Anyone listen to the Bill Simmons podcast? In his week 1 recap he noted that the Vikings had the worst chemistry in the league and it looked like our players hated each other. With the vaccine drama and our head coach still pushing 1990s football - I don't think he's wrong.
Anytime you get a group of people this large together there will be problems. Then we bring Everson back and unfortunately for him he had some type of mental breakdown the year Cousins arrive. I assume that Everson made some type of comment about the money Kirk is getting and Cousins told him to go F yourself. Then when Everson went missing Kirk probably called him a loser for bailing out on the team or something along those lines. It's not 1990s it's 1970s football that Zim wants. If he picked the best game he ever coach it would probably be the game when Kirk attempted 10 passes against Atlanta. That's 1970s. Tebow attempted 8 one game but he wasn't a QB he was a master of all positions. He was a TE this year. Next year he might be a G or LBer. Zim ran Cook until his wheels feel off and he needed to rest. That's 1970s. We had Brown and Osborne and Reed share the load. The Phins primed themselves for that by having 3 RBs who would handle the load. Zim tried it with one back and almost killed the guy. Zim forgot that you still need guys that can block our your done before you start. His version of Tinglehoff is Bradbury. That won't work. That all spells early 1970s football.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by Dmizzle0 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:16 am

Vikings were playing from behind most of the game and they came back. And lost due to a bs call. Im not sure about this 1970s take.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:19 am

CharVike wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:38 am
TSonn wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:11 pm
Anyone listen to the Bill Simmons podcast? In his week 1 recap he noted that the Vikings had the worst chemistry in the league and it looked like our players hated each other. With the vaccine drama and our head coach still pushing 1990s football - I don't think he's wrong.
Anytime you get a group of people this large together there will be problems. Then we bring Everson back and unfortunately for him he had some type of mental breakdown the year Cousins arrive. I assume that Everson made some type of comment about the money Kirk is getting and Cousins told him to go F yourself. Then when Everson went missing Kirk probably called him a loser for bailing out on the team or something along those lines.
That doesn't sound like Kirk at all.

Much like Simmons, you are making a baseless claim with no real evidence to back it up.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by allday1991 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:32 am

Kirk leads a game tying drive, then leads a game winning drive the ends up not winning because of a bad call on Cooks fumble. He does all this with the most laughable olines in the league yet still is the problem? Doesn't take a genius to see we lose this game just like we always lose games, in the trenches. Our oline cant block crap and if they do they're usually holding and our to big DT free agent signings looked very below average. Said it a million times, even Mahomes at QB doesn't make this team a contender. Zimmer needs to go, period.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:30 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:32 am
Kirk leads a game tying drive, then leads a game winning drive the ends up not winning because of a bad call on Cooks fumble. He does all this with the most laughable olines in the league yet still is the problem? Doesn't take a genius to see we lose this game just like we always lose games, in the trenches. Our oline cant block crap and if they do they're usually holding and our to big DT free agent signings looked very below average. Said it a million times, even Mahomes at QB doesn't make this team a contender. Zimmer needs to go, period.
Mahomes got pressured on 41% of his dropbacks, Kirk 30%.

I can guarantee if the Andy Reid suffered brain damage and traded Mahomes for Kirk straight up, the Vikings would instantly become SB favorites while KC would drop out of the running. I can also guarantee that Mahomes wins Sunday for us, while KC loses Sunday with Cousins.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:33 am

makila wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am
Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Mike Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.
When your HC is bragging about 7 wins your team is sunk. Just say the usual junk for the media and be done with it. Something like the Bengals are a well coached team with a talented kid at QB with some nice weapons. Our guys played hard blah blah blah. This three game stretch coming up don't look good for us. The grave should be dug by the time that stretch ends.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by allday1991 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:19 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:30 am
allday1991 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:32 am
Kirk leads a game tying drive, then leads a game winning drive the ends up not winning because of a bad call on Cooks fumble. He does all this with the most laughable olines in the league yet still is the problem? Doesn't take a genius to see we lose this game just like we always lose games, in the trenches. Our oline cant block crap and if they do they're usually holding and our to big DT free agent signings looked very below average. Said it a million times, even Mahomes at QB doesn't make this team a contender. Zimmer needs to go, period.
Mahomes got pressured on 41% of his dropbacks, Kirk 30%.

I can guarantee if the Andy Reid suffered brain damage and traded Mahomes for Kirk straight up, the Vikings would instantly become SB favorites while KC would drop out of the running. I can also guarantee that Mahomes wins Sunday for us, while KC loses Sunday with Cousins.
Not to insult but I see a lot of stats thrown around this site with little to no context, anyone ever taken a counting error/ statistics course? Sample size? standard deviation? Outliers? on these pressures are they from blitz or just a front four rush. There is a reason stats a statistic don’t work for sports, or else it would be easy money to bet on. There is so much unknown and error % on the stats used here they’re unreliable. We had 12 penalties from holding to false starts, does that factor in the 31% pressures(obviously not)? Penalties are drive killers and worse than pressures, so saying we have a 10% better stat than Kc well not factoring in penalties, blitz rate, where the pressure came from tells me nothing on which oline played better overall. A simple eye check by watching and comparing the two games tells me Kc did a much better job against a much better dline in the browns. Mahomes super bowl bound with a bottom 3 oline and 12 penalties a game? I’d love to see the Vegas odds for that.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:24 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:19 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:30 am


Mahomes got pressured on 41% of his dropbacks, Kirk 30%.

I can guarantee if the Andy Reid suffered brain damage and traded Mahomes for Kirk straight up, the Vikings would instantly become SB favorites while KC would drop out of the running. I can also guarantee that Mahomes wins Sunday for us, while KC loses Sunday with Cousins.
Not to insult but I see a lot of stats thrown around this site with little to no context, anyone ever taken a counting error/ statistics course? Sample size? standard deviation? Outliers? on these pressures are they from blitz or just a front four rush. There is a reason stats a statistic don’t work for sports, or else it would be easy money to bet on. There is so much unknown and error % on the stats used here they’re unreliable. We had 12 penalties from holding to false starts, does that factor in the 31% pressures(obviously not)? Penalties are drive killers and worse than pressures, so saying we have a 10% better stat than Kc well not factoring in penalties, blitz rate, where the pressure came from tells me nothing on which oline played better overall. A simple eye check by watching and comparing the two games tells me Kc did a much better job against a much better dline in the browns. Mahomes super bowl bound with a bottom 3 oline and 12 penalties a game? I’d love to see the Vegas odds for that.
Kirk was blitzed 19 times versus Mahomes' 10. Mahomes' Oline had 4 penalties accepted against them, Cousisn's Oline had 6 accepted.

I am not saying the Vikings oline is better than KC's, I don't think that will be the case by the end of the season. But on Sunday they were pretty bad and KC still won. Thuney, Brown and Niang all had bad games, yet KC fans aren't crying about their line because their team won.

You don't think Mahomes and Cousins switching teams wouldn't also switch our Vegas SB winning odds?
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by allday1991 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:40 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:24 am
allday1991 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:19 am


Not to insult but I see a lot of stats thrown around this site with little to no context, anyone ever taken a counting error/ statistics course? Sample size? standard deviation? Outliers? on these pressures are they from blitz or just a front four rush. There is a reason stats a statistic don’t work for sports, or else it would be easy money to bet on. There is so much unknown and error % on the stats used here they’re unreliable. We had 12 penalties from holding to false starts, does that factor in the 31% pressures(obviously not)? Penalties are drive killers and worse than pressures, so saying we have a 10% better stat than Kc well not factoring in penalties, blitz rate, where the pressure came from tells me nothing on which oline played better overall. A simple eye check by watching and comparing the two games tells me Kc did a much better job against a much better dline in the browns. Mahomes super bowl bound with a bottom 3 oline and 12 penalties a game? I’d love to see the Vegas odds for that.
Kirk was blitzed 19 times versus Mahomes' 10. Mahomes' Oline had 4 penalties accepted against them, Cousisn's Oline had 6 accepted.

I am not saying the Vikings oline is better than KC's, I don't think that will be the case by the end of the season. But on Sunday they were pretty bad and KC still won. Thuney, Brown and Niang all had bad games, yet KC fans aren't crying about their line because their team won.

You don't think Mahomes and Cousins switching teams wouldn't also switch our Vegas SB winning odds?
Yeah, I apologize I could of worded that part better. I do think our odds would get a lot better to win a superbowl with Mahomes as our QB however I don't believe it would make us super bowl favourites. at least I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:41 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:19 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:30 am


Mahomes got pressured on 41% of his dropbacks, Kirk 30%.

I can guarantee if the Andy Reid suffered brain damage and traded Mahomes for Kirk straight up, the Vikings would instantly become SB favorites while KC would drop out of the running. I can also guarantee that Mahomes wins Sunday for us, while KC loses Sunday with Cousins.
Not to insult but I see a lot of stats thrown around this site with little to no context, anyone ever taken a counting error/ statistics course? Sample size? standard deviation? Outliers? on these pressures are they from blitz or just a front four rush. There is a reason stats a statistic don’t work for sports, or else it would be easy money to bet on. There is so much unknown and error % on the stats used here they’re unreliable. We had 12 penalties from holding to false starts, does that factor in the 31% pressures(obviously not)? Penalties are drive killers and worse than pressures, so saying we have a 10% better stat than Kc well not factoring in penalties, blitz rate, where the pressure came from tells me nothing on which oline played better overall. A simple eye check by watching and comparing the two games tells me Kc did a much better job against a much better dline in the browns. Mahomes super bowl bound with a bottom 3 oline and 12 penalties a game? I’d love to see the Vegas odds for that.
I had to take a stats course in college and for my brain it was far to complicated. It was a gift passing grade. I've been a fan since 1970 and football is a game that is hard to figure out. Every fan has an opinion on our players and who/what works or don't work. I do know this you better be able to block players. That's a basic of football. That impacts everything a team does on offense. Anyone that says otherwise don't know football. Mahomes and that KC staff/org have built an extremely talented and successful team. Mahomes struggled behind a less than very good offensive line. They couldn't score in the Super Bowl. They upgraded with two top level proven OL guys. Some see this and some don't want to see it to satisfy another opinion. I don't see Mahomes coming here and making us the Super Bowl favorite. Is he an upgrade over Cousins well of course he is. But I do think he would have a much harder time playing behind this hunk of junk OL we have. Will he become the worst QB in football? No. But his play will suffer. With that we have some very good skill position players on offense at every level including QB. What we lack is a good OL and that will do us in again. You can't go into a season with 4 out of the 5 players that are basically worthless. We are worse than last year after an upgrade. I watched Cook and he is a fantastic dual threat who can do it all. There was nothing there for him to get anything going. I felt bad for the guy. Any play inside the tackles was over before he even took a step. If he gets a crack he can bust through quickly because we all have seen it and make a big play. Arm tackles won't stop him from breaking past the LOS. KC has a much better OL than we have. It would be hard for our starters to even make their team outside of O'neil who would become a swing backup T. Speilman only added draft picks and the top guy was coming off surgery. That's not a good plan. Our skill position players will struggle with this.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by TSonn » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:47 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:19 am
CharVike wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:38 am

Anytime you get a group of people this large together there will be problems. Then we bring Everson back and unfortunately for him he had some type of mental breakdown the year Cousins arrive. I assume that Everson made some type of comment about the money Kirk is getting and Cousins told him to go F yourself. Then when Everson went missing Kirk probably called him a loser for bailing out on the team or something along those lines.
That doesn't sound like Kirk at all.

Much like Simmons, you are making a baseless claim with no real evidence to back it up.
Agree on your assessment of Char's post. That's a wild theory.

But Simmons' claim isn't baseless. I unfortunately watched the game and also didn't see a team that enjoyed playing together. Maybe the camera just missed those moments?
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:27 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:29 pm

You didn't compare Cousins under center snaps to his shotgun in Shanahan's offense to offenses with Zimmer as the HC, you compared Cousins' snaps in Gruden's offense to the offenses under Zimmer.

Are you okay?
Am I okay? Yeah I'm actually completely fine, just proving you have no clue what you're talking about.

Cousins only played under Shanahan for 2 seasons. His rookie year where he only played one game and then in 2013 where he had:

UC- 43
Shotgun- 112

Also, the starting QB at the time of Cousins rookie year (RGIII) had the following in a SHANAHAN offense:

2012
UC- 100
Shotgun- 294

2013
UC- 68
Shotgun 389

YOU were the one that said what they are doing right now is identical to a Shanahan offense. That is FALSE and you are WRONG. It's not even close. Shanahan was never under center with his QBs like Zimmer is right now. And FYI I used those years for Cousins because those are the years he was the legitimate starter and playing under Sean McVay who IS a Shanahan disciple. It's just the difference with McVay back then and even today is that he knows how to balance an offense and keep defenses on their toes. And he did that with JARED GOFF and now Matt Stafford. He found ways to have dominant seasons by Todd Gurley as well as maximize Jared Goffs skill set.


No, with Kirk Cousins and not Josh Allen Zimmer for sure doesn't want to be chucking it all over the field. Maybe if he had a QB of that caliber he would or maybe he wouldn't. I doubt we ever find out.
lol I've always felt like you've struggled to understand this.....

...Chucking it all over the field (like Flip did in 2018) makes you one dimensional and it's an absolute waste of Dalvin Cook

...running the ball 24/7 (the norm for us the last few years) makes you one dimensional and is an absolute waste of Thielen and Jefferson (AGAIN this is why Diggs wanted out)

...finding a balance with your offense and finding ways for everyone to have success is what gets you where you want to go. And no I dont want to hear your weak little argument of "well we threw this many times this year and that many times that year and ran the ball this many times". I dont want to hear it. You and I both know that a BALANCED offense is more than just how many times you run and throw. It's about being unpredictable, it's about how many times you're under center and in the gun, it's about creativity, it's about how you handle down and distance, it's about how you play to your players strengths, it's about making your offensive weakness serviceable.

^That is Sean McVay. Hell, that's even Pat Shurmur in 2017 to an extent. The 2018 Rams had a RB that went for 1900 all purpose yards and 21 TDs as well as two WRs that went for over 1,000 yards and one that hit 600 and they totaled 19 TDs. And they did all of this with the one and only JARED GOFF. Just like Pat Shurmur did it with Case Keenum.

This offense wont ever see it's true potential again until we have a head coach that allows such balance and isnt living in the 70's. His current philosophy has proved that and it is nowhere near a Mike Shanahan's or anyone elses for that matter. It has gotten so bad that you as a fan can call which plays will be runs and which will be passes pre-snap every Sunday.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by CharVike » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:52 pm

TSonn wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:47 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:19 am


That doesn't sound like Kirk at all.

Much like Simmons, you are making a baseless claim with no real evidence to back it up.
Agree on your assessment of Char's post. That's a wild theory.

But Simmons' claim isn't baseless. I unfortunately watched the game and also didn't see a team that enjoyed playing together. Maybe the camera just missed those moments?
Everson Griffen says he will apologize to Kirk Cousins for calling him '####'
WRITTEN BY TREVOR BOOTH
This is what Everson said to the reporter. But I think and yes it's a theory it went much deeper than just saying #### to Kirk. Kirk is a tough person both physically and mentally. He never would have made it this far if he wasn't. He's been through ups and downs while being a pro. It's still goes on with that stiff RG. Why do you think the Boys and the Lions didn't hang on. He certainly still has the physical skills to play in spot duty. He's cheap but something wasn't right maybe too much BS to put up with. But Kirks a tough guy and I've seen him take hits and bounce back up. If Everson did say something that Kirk felt was insulting I don't see him backing away. Kirk is to media smart to even talk about it anymore.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by VikingLord » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:14 pm

TSonn wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:47 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:19 am


That doesn't sound like Kirk at all.

Much like Simmons, you are making a baseless claim with no real evidence to back it up.
Agree on your assessment of Char's post. That's a wild theory.

But Simmons' claim isn't baseless. I unfortunately watched the game and also didn't see a team that enjoyed playing together. Maybe the camera just missed those moments?
I saw a team that looked like it didn't have a lot of respect for its opponent heading into the game and didn't put in the time and effort necessary to be ready to play that opponent as a result.

It's hard to read into whether players enjoy playing together based on what is seen on the field. More than likely the Vikings got into the game and quickly realized it wasn't going to be a cakewalk, and when things aren't going your way in any team competition there is a real temptation to start mentally blaming teammates for some of what isn't going right. That shows up in body language. It can be an ongoing problem if the issues are deeper than a single game, but generally these guys are professionals and all know and respect the work they put in to play at this level. Time will tell, but I wouldn't read too much into that yet. There might be individual diva players who think they're above it all (like Diggs, for example) and they can be a problem for the team without reflecting a general attitude problem on the team. General attitude problems tend to come from general player dissatisfaction with coaches, GMs, or even owners (ala what might be happening in Green Bay this year).

All I know is the Vikings got a wakeup call from the Bengals. If their awful preseason wasn't enough to wake them up, the game against the Bengals coupled with the game this week's opponent just put up against a team that is similar to the Vikings should be all the wakeup call the Vikings need to put that talent to some actual use. If they go to Arizona and get their hats handed to them, we'll see if any deeper discontent among the players starts to emerge.
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