Vikings @ Bengals Post game

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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by IIsweet » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:00 pm

What matters most is what the Wilfs think?
Do they view this regime like we do? Do they see fans lining up and putting pressure on them to make a change?
We could easily be 0-4 if this play continues. What will be the tune of fans then ???
If 0-4, do the Wilfs fire Zimmer ? if so, who becomes the interim HC ?
Then, with a new HC, oh my I am getting excited just thinking about this.... I have so many questions....

I know, jumping to conclusions after only 1 game, but at some point, things have to change. There is too much talent to settle as a playoff contender every other year but never a SB contender.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by S197 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:57 am
S197 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:31 pm
According to Zimmer, the play that Burrow checked into on 4th and inches in OT was one they practiced defending all week. Looking back at the play, it does seem like they diagnosed it pretty well but Woods overplayed it. He struggled a lot today as did Breeland. A lot of these 1-year vet signings aren’t looking so positive right now. This year and last have shown that the cap does matter and hard choices need to be made when you’re cap constrained.
I don't think Woods overplayed it. His man came from a Ross the formation and was passed on by several people. Very difficult to defend, I believe he was making up for someone's mistake as he recognized the TE flying behind him. I was supposed I didn't here much communication on that play
You could be right, I think what was disappointing was finding out they had practiced defending that play all week and the defense still couldn't execute. Last year the excuse was a young secondary so they brought in a ton of vets on 1-year deals and the initial results don't look a whole lot better.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:41 am
TSonn wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:21 am


Fascinating. It's almost if Zim sets the team up so if everything goes right (2017) he can take the glory but if everything goes wrong (every other season basically) he can blame something else. Gotta think the 20 year olds on the roster are pretty sick of his style - even if he had the best schemes (he doesn't), his coaching style is going to resonate less and less with each new draft class. Any other long-term coaches in the league have their team look this trash coming into week 1? No, it's a Zimmer specialty.

I said it in the chat but I'll say it again: we are the first team ever to have a 4,000 yard QB, a 1,500 yard RB, and a 1,400 yard WR. It's unacceptable for the offense to look like it does. And I'm not talking about execution - the entire game plan for the offense doesn't take advantage of these 3 dudes. We've got a Porsche on the autobahn but Mike Zimmer is driving it so he thinks the speed limit is still 65 mph like it was in 1995.
Unless the GM/HC relationship is very different than I believe it is, Zimmer holds a lot of responsibility for who is playing and him ripping the players for not being good enough is still on him.

This team does not have close to enough talent to win it all. That is more on the GM for building the team, but it is also on the HC for not helping his GM build a better team. Even more damning for Zimmer, he is the primary decision maker on who is OC is, and his OC looks like he was hired purely on who his Dad was. If you are a defensive minded coach, you need a great OC, and it feels like instead Zimmer settled for a guy who just happened to be already on the staff. Early in the season that looks like the worst decision made this offseason and if it continues that hiring was a fire-able offense.

Zimmer is a good HC. He isn't good enough.

The GM isn't good enough.

The QB isn't good enough.


They all have their moments, they all bring things to the table that are good, but in the end they are not good enough to win us a championship.
My pie chart of blame when it comes to the organization as a whole in any of the recent seasons would have Zimmer with the biggest chunk by far.

Guys can say what they want about Spielman but Spielman does bring in a lot of talent. I mean for how long now have we said we have one of the more talented rosters in the NFL. Spielmans job is indeed to find and bring in talent to this team. He has done that more often than not. The problem is the talent being underutilized. There are flashes of an excellent football team. Spielman cant coach these guys. That's Zim's job and as of late, he has failed in that regard. And I dont think it has anything to do with the talent that he has been given.

I use to often ignore or be in denial regarding him focusing on the defense and not being involved in the offense. But it is glaringly obvious right now. He is a good defensive coach, he is respected by many of his players, he is a no nonsense guy but he's simply lacking as a head coach due to that offensive piece. He cant keep an OC around, he has had his battles with players not buying into his style scheme, he's still living in the 1980's, its starting to become more and more obvious that he does not like his QB, and so on.

He has brought in guys like Norv Turner, Gary Kubiak, etc in to run this offense because that's exactly what he wants them to do. Run the offense so he doesnt have to deal with it. So he can focus all of his attention on the defense. To be honest, if I'm the Wilfs, if this team craps, the first person I let go is Zim. I keep Spielman for at least another new head coach. I personally think it's stupid to let Spielman go.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by S197 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:56 pm

IIsweet wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:03 am
My take and complaint is with the OL and why are we thinking that we can transition OT to the OG position?
So my complaint is with Coaching. I have been off the Zimmer train now for years! Very frustrating.
Cleveland is a OT that is trying to bulk to play the interior position. He is getting better, but was an outside guy that plays with finesse and skill, not strength and mauling tendencies! Udoh is a OT that is inside now also. Again the OT is a more athletic lineman as they have to be able to control speed rushers.
Why do we not put OG in the OG position? Is Wyatt Davis going to have to wait a season to get into the OL like Zimmer always does with rookies? We drafted Davis and I was absolutely thrilled thinking we finally took an elite OG that will play the OG position. Those guys play with leverage and power, not finesse like the OT's. They spend their college years learning how to move big fatties !!!
But..... The Vikings coaches don't see it that way. I don't understand why?
Now I see us in a pickle. Gave O'Neill a great new contract, good for him. Drafted Darrisaw to be future LT. Drafted Davis to be a OG. Ezra is going to have to stay at OG, or will he leave as a FA because he wants to go back to OT ? I just don't get it. I would have added another OG with Davis in the draft. I really liked Ben Cleveland, Trey Smith, and Aaron Banks.

Just my rant.
I think your rant is on the nose. When we drafted Cleveland there were a lot of people (here and in the media) that were saying we solved our LT problem. Cleveland was a true LT out of Boise St. At bare minimum, he was supposed to play RT to start and he and O'Neill could battle for left. But we had Reiff and O'Neill so we plugged him at guard in year 1 (that's fine). Then inexplicably left him there (not fine). And maybe he made some progress over the year. To be honest, I didn't see it but it's certainly plausible. However, anyone watching yesterday could easily see he's still got a long ways to go.

Hopefully Davis helps the team down the road. I was hoping he'd be ready out the gate but after seeing him get dominated by Shamar Stephen, he's likely not ready. All I know is we've spent two 1sts, two 2nds, and two 3rds on this OL and right now it doesn't look improved one iota. If Darrisaw and Davis aren't significant upgrades, I don't know how Spielman keeps his job.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:01 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:41 am


Unless the GM/HC relationship is very different than I believe it is, Zimmer holds a lot of responsibility for who is playing and him ripping the players for not being good enough is still on him.

This team does not have close to enough talent to win it all. That is more on the GM for building the team, but it is also on the HC for not helping his GM build a better team. Even more damning for Zimmer, he is the primary decision maker on who is OC is, and his OC looks like he was hired purely on who his Dad was. If you are a defensive minded coach, you need a great OC, and it feels like instead Zimmer settled for a guy who just happened to be already on the staff. Early in the season that looks like the worst decision made this offseason and if it continues that hiring was a fire-able offense.

Zimmer is a good HC. He isn't good enough.

The GM isn't good enough.

The QB isn't good enough.


They all have their moments, they all bring things to the table that are good, but in the end they are not good enough to win us a championship.
My pie chart of blame when it comes to the organization as a whole in any of the recent seasons would have Zimmer with the biggest chunk by far.

Guys can say what they want about Spielman but Spielman does bring in a lot of talent. I mean for how long now have we said we have one of the more talented rosters in the NFL. Spielmans job is indeed to find and bring in talent to this team. He has done that more often than not. The problem is the talent being underutilized. There are flashes of an excellent football team. Spielman cant coach these guys. That's Zim's job and as of late, he has failed in that regard. And I dont think it has anything to do with the talent that he has been given.

I use to often ignore or be in denial regarding him focusing on the defense and not being involved in the offense. But it is glaringly obvious right now. He is a good defensive coach, he is respected by many of his players, he is a no nonsense guy but he's simply lacking as a head coach due to that offensive piece. He cant keep an OC around, he has had his battles with players not buying into his style scheme, he's still living in the 1980's, its starting to become more and more obvious that he does not like his QB, and so on.

He has brought in guys like Norv Turner, Gary Kubiak, etc in to run this offense because that's exactly what he wants them to do. Run the offense so he doesnt have to deal with it. So he can focus all of his attention on the defense. To be honest, if I'm the Wilfs, if this team craps, the first person I let go is Zim. I keep Spielman for at least another new head coach. I personally think it's stupid to let Spielman go.
Spielman is the guy who continues to employ Zimmer. If he felt he was giving Zimmer all this talent only to have Zimmer squander it, why hasn't he fired him?

This team isn't good enough, and that goes for the talent on the field as well as who is doing the coaching. Rick is responsible for both.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by VikingLord » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:15 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:01 pm
This team isn't good enough, and that goes for the talent on the field as well as who is doing the coaching. Rick is responsible for both.
In my view both Spielman and Zimmer have had more than enough time to put together a team that should be competing for a Superbowl. The Wilfs have given both anything they could ask for in terms of support. The state of Minnesota gave them a new stadium. They have a state of the art practice facility.

There should be no more excuses at this point. This year's team needs to not only make the playoffs but should be in the discussion as a Superbowl team.

If that doesn't happen, or they fall well short of it, if the Wilfs don't shake it up top-to-bottom they have nobody to blame but themselves if the mediocrity continues and fans start to lose interest.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by fiestavike » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:48 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:05 am
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:20 am
Lot's of negatives, but at the end of the day, the Vikings still win this game if Kirk Cousins just doesn't suck so bad.

A QB might be able to wait to throw until he sees the guy open if he can move in the pocket or scramble to buy time.
A QB might be get away with being unable to buy time if he can get the ball out quick and throw with anticipation.

If a QB doesn't get the ball out quick, or throw with anticipation, or have the ability to buy time with movement, he just flat out sucks in today's game, It doesn't matter how good he is when everything goes according to plan.

Throw in being a panicky wreck when under pressure or forced off schedule, and you have Kirk Cousins.
Was waiting for someone to blame the loss directly on the QB :whistle:
I think you missed the point. Of course, Cousins is not the ONLY reason they lost. As I said, 'Lot's of negatives', but if Cousins didn't suck, they would have won in spite of those negatives. Naturally, there are dozens of other things you could also point to and come to the same conclusion. Heck, if the refs didn't call it a fumble, the Vikings likely wouldn't have lost, and probably would have won.

Nonetheless, todays NFL is built around the QB more than any era of pro football has ever been. The rules are designed to protect them, to make their job easier, to limit how effectively WRs can be covered etc. The QB touches the ball 70 times a game, and today, he is liable to throw it more than 40 times per game. At the end of the day, if your QB isn't better than Kirk Cousins, you are going to lose a lot of games.

There will always--in every single game--be other things you can point to as legitimate causes for losing, but with Kirk Cousins, you are going to lose too many games to ever get anywhere. As an NFL level QB--if the goal is to win lots of games, and win big games--he sucks.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by IIsweet » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:05 pm

My next question then would be... does Spielman support and think that Zimmer is doing a good job with the talent being provided? Is he getting another free pass due to the number of 1st year coaches this year?
I have no idea. However, if the people started to make noise and it became either Zimmer or Spielman had to go, the allegiance to Zim would quickly diminish.
Can Spielman honestly be happy with the job that Zimmer is doing? I might be mistaken but I thought that the GM is the Head Coaches boss ?? Spending A LOT of money on being below average and not developing players.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:44 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am
Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Mike Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.
This sums up my feeling on Zimmer very well. It never seems to occur to him that what happens on the field is his responsibility.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:49 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:44 pm
makila wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am
Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Mike Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.
This sums up my feeling on Zimmer very well. It never seems to occur to him that what happens on the field is his responsibility.
He never does, he always blame everyone else, he blamed Cousins on the loss for holding the ball too long :roll:
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 pm

I’ll throw in another “good.”

K.J. Osborn had a nice game yesterday. For a guy who had zero catches last year and looked like yet another low-round flameout WR, he has really developed and come along nicely.

And now for the seriously funny stat of the week … the Vikings are technically in first place. The Packers, Bears and Lions all are 0-1 against the NFC, and the Vikings have the “best” point differential at -3.

Random thought … while most of us don’t think much of Rick Dennison, it’s important to remember that we essentially fired him as O-line coach in the middle of training camp. The last time we lost an O-line coach during training camp, when Tony Sparano died, we ended up with the worst O-line in the league. I guess it shouldn’t surprise us that the O-line stunk up the joint.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by S197 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:24 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 pm
I’ll throw in another “good.”

K.J. Osborn had a nice game yesterday. For a guy who had zero catches last year and looked like yet another low-round flameout WR, he has really developed and come along nicely.

And now for the seriously funny stat of the week … the Vikings are technically in first place. The Packers, Bears and Lions all are 0-1 against the NFC, and the Vikings have the “best” point differential at -3.

Random thought … while most of us don’t think much of Rick Dennison, it’s important to remember that we essentially fired him as O-line coach in the middle of training camp. The last time we lost an O-line coach during training camp, when Tony Sparano died, we ended up with the worst O-line in the league. I guess it shouldn’t surprise us that the O-line stunk up the joint.
Good point Kapp, Osborne who I honestly had kinda written off had a nice game. Heck of an effort on that one 3rd down catch to move the sticks. Hopefully he and Westbrook can provide some depth behind the dynamic duo.

I thought Dennison was retained in some sort of weird quasi-consultant role? I get your point though, the turnover at coordinator and position coach for the OL has been suboptimal.
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:24 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 pm
I’ll throw in another “good.”

K.J. Osborn had a nice game yesterday. For a guy who had zero catches last year and looked like yet another low-round flameout WR, he has really developed and come along nicely.

And now for the seriously funny stat of the week … the Vikings are technically in first place. The Packers, Bears and Lions all are 0-1 against the NFC, and the Vikings have the “best” point differential at -3.

Random thought … while most of us don’t think much of Rick Dennison, it’s important to remember that we essentially fired him as O-line coach in the middle of training camp. The last time we lost an O-line coach during training camp, when Tony Sparano died, we ended up with the worst O-line in the league. I guess it shouldn’t surprise us that the O-line stunk up the joint.
Good point Kapp, Osborne who I honestly had kinda written off had a nice game. Heck of an effort on that one 3rd down catch to move the sticks. Hopefully he and Westbrook can provide some depth behind the dynamic duo.

I thought Dennison was retained in some sort of weird quasi-consultant role? I get your point though, the turnover at coordinator and position coach for the OL has been suboptimal.
Yeah, Dennison has been retained
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:20 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:24 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 pm
I’ll throw in another “good.”

K.J. Osborn had a nice game yesterday. For a guy who had zero catches last year and looked like yet another low-round flameout WR, he has really developed and come along nicely.

And now for the seriously funny stat of the week … the Vikings are technically in first place. The Packers, Bears and Lions all are 0-1 against the NFC, and the Vikings have the “best” point differential at -3.

Random thought … while most of us don’t think much of Rick Dennison, it’s important to remember that we essentially fired him as O-line coach in the middle of training camp. The last time we lost an O-line coach during training camp, when Tony Sparano died, we ended up with the worst O-line in the league. I guess it shouldn’t surprise us that the O-line stunk up the joint.
Good point Kapp, Osborne who I honestly had kinda written off had a nice game. Heck of an effort on that one 3rd down catch to move the sticks. Hopefully he and Westbrook can provide some depth behind the dynamic duo.

I thought Dennison was retained in some sort of weird quasi-consultant role? I get your point though, the turnover at coordinator and position coach for the OL has been suboptimal.
The problem is not the OL coach. It's not like the blocking scheme has changed. Its the same.
The fact of the matter is a lack of talent. Guys are getting killed out there in one on ones. A different scheme won't stop Cleaveland from getting swim moved and giving up a sack. These guys are simply not good.
* We missed on Bradbury (two very talented centers drafted after him)
* Cleveland is either out of position or a miss as well
* As much as we love Oneill, He is good in one aspect of the game and that is run blocking. I know most think he is good at pass protection but he is average AT BEST. The issue is the other guys are sooo bad, their guys get to the QBs first.
* I have no trust in Darrisaw being the savior. I believe he will be a bust because our GM has shown an inability to draft talent at the OL position for a decade now. Pair that with some very concerning draft profiles for CD and he has future bust written all over him (Soft, doesn't finish blocks, plays hot cold, issues with effort).
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Re: Vikings @ Bengals Post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:33 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:20 pm
S197 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:24 pm


Good point Kapp, Osborne who I honestly had kinda written off had a nice game. Heck of an effort on that one 3rd down catch to move the sticks. Hopefully he and Westbrook can provide some depth behind the dynamic duo.

I thought Dennison was retained in some sort of weird quasi-consultant role? I get your point though, the turnover at coordinator and position coach for the OL has been suboptimal.
The problem is not the OL coach. It's not like the blocking scheme has changed. Its the same.
The fact of the matter is a lack of talent. Guys are getting killed out there in one on ones. A different scheme won't stop Cleaveland from getting swim moved and giving up a sack. These guys are simply not good.
* We missed on Bradbury (two very talented centers drafted after him)
* Cleveland is either out of position or a miss as well
* As much as we love Oneill, He is good in one aspect of the game and that is run blocking. I know most think he is good at pass protection but he is average AT BEST. The issue is the other guys are sooo bad, their guys get to the QBs first.
* I have no trust in Darrisaw being the savior. I believe he will be a bust because our GM has shown an inability to draft talent at the OL position for a decade now. Pair that with some very concerning draft profiles for CD and he has future bust written all over him (Soft, doesn't finish blocks, plays hot cold, issues with effort).
I wasn’t making an argument. It’s an observation. We replaced our O-line coach during training camp. If you have below average talent, you need good coaching to maximize what you have.

The fact is, other than Zimmer, Patterson and McCardell, we have a lot of untested coaches on this team. Or in the cases of Adam Zimmer and Andrew Janocko, nepotism and Zimmer buddy. It may not be THE reason for all our issues, but it certainly doesn’t help.
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