Donatell Gone

[Texas Vike]

2) Anyone else concerned that Kwesi kept the same scouting staff as Rick? It kind of made sense to me last season, as he didn't really have time to assemble his own team ahead of the draft. But if I'm not mistaken, he's retained many of the same folks. They have done a piss poor job at evaluating defensive talent, frankly. Since 2015, when we drafted Kendricks, Hunter, and Trae Waynes, we haven't acquired a single player via draft on our defense. That's brutal.

Very concerned. I read an interview KAM did on Vikings.com and based on what he said he seems to think the Vikings have a lot of younger defensive players waiting in the wings (see https://www.vikings.com/news/evaluating ... okie-class for the exact quotes).

But this is what concerns me (from same article):

Overall, the Vikings tied Carolina in having the fewest rookies play at least 200 snaps on either side of the ball. Minnesota also ranked 27th in snaps per game by a rookie and last in its division.

Ouch and ouch. If this were a one-year issue, maybe that wouldn't be so bad, but as you note, this is a multi-year issue and the effects of the lack of production in drafts since 2015 has shown now for two years. The Vikings are left to scour the waiver wires and engineer FA deals to try to field a solid defense and it just isn't working for the most part.

What is the greater sin IMHO is KAM trading out of #12 last year and just not getting any production for that move. Granted, he can't control injuries but the fact remains that he left two consensus impact defensive starters on the board at #12 to trade back for a safety and CB prospects who didn't win starting jobs in training camp and didn't play meaningful snaps. The fact that both ended up injured is beside the point when compared to the guys KAM left on the board there. If for whatever reason neither Cine nor Booth manage to make an impact this coming year, it will look even worse for KAM. He needs both players to make meaningful contributions, he needs younger guys from recent past drafts to step up as well, and he needs to get some production out of this year's upcoming draft whether he's selecting offensive or defensive players as he has limited picks and his hands are going to be tied in free agency.

Part of me thinks a less old school DC would have had Cine playing more this season. I really hope we hire a DC who leans more into playing younger, untested guys. Donatell and Zimmer did the opposite, and I'm just so tired of it.

[CharVike]

After watching how a real contender (Philly) utterly destroyed NY and showed the weak nature of NYs offense, I am even more convinced that we had neither the coaches or the manpower to be a contender. Yes, its a good thing to move on from such an ineffective scheme but there are a lot of positions that need to be improved on D. The only real need on the offense remains the OL ( as always) and to keep as much of our offenses talent in place. There are pundits out there saying we should upgrade our RB but I dont think its a fair judgement. The OL is incapable of run blocking so the running game was DOA all season. If this defensive scheme was really the Head Coach's desire, we are in a bad spot. Its kind of like running the old prevent defense all year, every game, most downs.....

There are certainly shortcomings in the defensive personnel. I think those were already there and showing up even before this last season, but they were more exposed this year with the scheme change, and the issues start with the DL. Only Danielle Hunter is a starter that was drafted by the Vikings. The other starters were all free agent vets IIRC. That issue of poor defensive drafting in recent years extends to the LBs as well. Kendricks was drafted by the Vikings, but Hicks is another FA vet and while Asamoah played well for stretches, he was not a huge factor. Ditto in the secondary. The Vikings have made miss after miss after miss in terms of finding impact defensive players in recent drafts (how many first or second round cornerback misses can a single team have?). This has forced them to look to free agency while largely being handicapped by the cap and their willingness to overpay to retain declining veterans on both sides of the ball in a misguided effort to remain "competitive" (whatever that means).

This is a serious issue that has now shown up on the defensive side for the last two seasons running and if the Wilfs and KAM don't realize what is happening and take some effective steps to get it under control we're likely going to be looking at another bottom 5 finish for the defense next year as well regardless of who is the DC or what scheme they choose. Couple that with a likely decline in the offense due once again to over-priced declining vets taking up disproportionate chunks of the cap and you've got a recipe for a multi-season swoon just on the horizon. With only 4 picks in this upcoming draft and still not knowing if the safety and cornerback you just drafted are any good or will be even competent, the situation looks challenging to say the least.

I am still bothered by KAM trading so far down in the first to get so little in return while passing up defensive talents like Jordan Davis and Kyle Hamilton. Maybe Cine turns out to be a great player, but that was a big gamble resting on relatively large assumptions about the lack of correlation between perceived talent and draft position value. I keep hoping KAM's way of looking at things turns out to be correct, but early returns are not promising. He needs both Cine and Booth to get and stay healthy and to make an impact at their positions this coming season, and he needs to start finding and hitting on defensive and offensive line talent in future drafts starting with this one.

And if KAM extends Cousins again, I think I'm done watching for a while. That is not a criticism of Cousins per se - he had a fantastic season and wasn't an issue. It's more a criticism of the Vikings not understanding the situation they find themselves in paying any QB top dollar while the rest of the team just isn't good enough, with some of the responsibility for that situation coming from the money they're paying said QB. Cousins, as good as he played this year, isn't the future. To find the future, they're going to have to do their homework and take some chances on a younger guy, either a backup on a QB-rich team who is ready to get his chance or in the draft somewhere. It might just be time to take a shorter term hit overall to reset the team and give themselves a chance to rise higher overall in the future. Sure, the Bears took a hit this year, but they're at the bottom and now can only go up. The Vikings, OTOH, are as high as they're going to get with this current group of players. Figure out who to keep, get rid of the rest while getting what you can for the ones you retain the rights to, and focus on drafting better while taking the short term hit that is inevitably going to come no matter what.

Cousins isn't off the charts with pay. Prescott makes more and that cowboy team is more solid than us. Couldn't score in last playoff game. Would he make you watch

[VikingLord]

Cousins isn't off the charts with pay. Prescott makes more and that cowboy team is more solid than us. Couldn't score in last playoff game. Would he make you watch

Cousins isn't off the charts, but he's paid like a franchise QB on a team that appears to not be remotely close to good enough to compete for a Superbowl next year.

As for Prescott, he's 29 and playing on a more complete team. Granted, he's not consistent at all, but the Cowboys are probably closer to reaching a Superbowl with Prescott than the Vikings have been at any time with Cousins under center.

I want to see evidence that KAM and KOC see things realistically this offseason. The Vikings of this last year were far from a complete team. They have a good offense, but not a consistent one and their main issue is not their QB play. Even if the Vikings somehow got Mahomes next year, with that defense and interior OL they'd be nowhere near making a Superbowl run. They are a team that needs to retrench a bit and focus on the cores of both sides of the ball. Paying Cousins franchise QB money doesn't make sense with such fundamental issues in place.

My real fear is the Wilfs look at the 13-4 record and decide the team is close. It's not. The Vikings were a .500 team this year that just came up heads at a statistically unlikely rate on coin toss game outcomes during the regular season. They were not good necessarily - they were fortunate. How the owners, GM and head coach interpret that is going to be key to whether they start to get well and put themselves on a path to sustainable future competitiveness even if it costs them in the short term, or whether they stay on the treadmill of mediocrity and defensive ineptitude.

[VikingLord]

Part of me thinks a less old school DC would have had Cine playing more this season. I really hope we hire a DC who leans more into playing younger, untested guys. Donatell and Zimmer did the opposite, and I'm just so tired of it.

Bynum is young, but the fact he beat out Cine for the starting job is not a good sign for Cine. I thought Bynum had at best an unremarkable year, although at his worst he was pretty bad. If Cine couldn't beat that level of play out, I can see why Donatell didn't want him out there even when he was healthy.

I'm tired of it too, but as hard as it may be to believe, I think it honestly could have been even worse on defense this year than it was. Thank goodness for Duke Shelley is all I can say...

[Texas Vike]

Part of me thinks a less old school DC would have had Cine playing more this season. I really hope we hire a DC who leans more into playing younger, untested guys. Donatell and Zimmer did the opposite, and I'm just so tired of it.

If Cine couldn't beat that level of play out, I can see why Donatell didn't want him out there even when he was healthy.

Donatell was the one to decide whether Cine beat out Bynum or not, which is exactly my point. I question his judgment. Based on his usage of Asamoah, I suspect he is like Zimmer in being conservative about using young players.

[Foreman44]

I don’t think I’ve ever been so excited for a firing. I feel like weight has been lifted off my shoulders….. and I’m nothing but a fan

I quoted you here. But not directed at you.

Guilty here. I wanted change. Our defense reaked.."
I was hoping we dumped Zimmer a year earlier..

I have a feeling the vast majority wanted change.

Yet feels so cold. People forget Donatell is hired.. he had to pack up, move to minn, unpack, some having to get kids settled in school.
One year later, he is fired..again have to remove kids from school, pack up personal goods, hope for another job, move again, enrol kids back in another school. That kind of life has to stink.

It’s easy to want Donatel fired. But I think many forget how tough it has to be for him. He is a person, has a family. They are affected as well

[Pondering Her Percy]

I don’t think I’ve ever been so excited for a firing. I feel like weight has been lifted off my shoulders….. and I’m nothing but a fan

I quoted you here. But not directed at you.

Guilty here. I wanted change. Our defense reaked.."
I was hoping we dumped Zimmer a year earlier..

I have a feeling the vast majority wanted change.

Yet feels so cold. People forget Donatell is hired.. he had to pack up, move to minn, unpack, some having to get kids settled in school.
One year later, he is fired..again have to remove kids from school, pack up personal goods, hope for another job, move again, enrol kids back in another school. That kind of life has to stink.

It’s easy to want Donatel fired. But I think many forget how tough it has to be for him. He is a person, has a family. They are affected as well

Oh yeah I'm sure it sucks but that's the nature of the business too.

[CharVike]

I don’t think I’ve ever been so excited for a firing. I feel like weight has been lifted off my shoulders….. and I’m nothing but a fan

I quoted you here. But not directed at you.

Guilty here. I wanted change. Our defense reaked.."
I was hoping we dumped Zimmer a year earlier..

I have a feeling the vast majority wanted change.

Yet feels so cold. People forget Donatell is hired.. he had to pack up, move to minn, unpack, some having to get kids settled in school.
One year later, he is fired..again have to remove kids from school, pack up personal goods, hope for another job, move again, enrol kids back in another school. That kind of life has to stink.

It’s easy to want Donatel fired. But I think many forget how tough it has to be for him. He is a person, has a family. They are affected as well

This is the career he choose and I'm sure he made great money. Coach high school and stay in same spot. If he would have performed at an average level he'd still be here. He didn't perform very well at his job. That's all on him.

[chicagopurple]

Being in Pro Athletics is much like being in the military. You live with the understanding you can be moved every year. Its just the price you pay for being in a wildly over-paid, over-valued field. Donatell is a veteran, He knows the ropes.

As far as the WIlfs psyche, I have been saying for years that we are nowhere near a SuperBowl contender, both because I never did believe that Cousins had it in him to persevere and lead (this year was a big upgrade from him) and because we have utterly failed to build our front lines. Now time passing has made this even worse. Our secondary is aging. Our contracts are ballooning, and the draft choices we have made lately havent been game changers. There is a lot of rebuilding needed. Sadly, I think the Wilfs are happy in the knowledge that Vikings Fans are drinking the Purple Kool-Aid and will sell out the stadium with the smoke and mirrors we saw this year. I hope I am wrong and that they have the guts to make the painful/risky moves to build a true winner.

[CharVike]

Being in Pro Athletics is much like being in the military. You live with the understanding you can be moved every year. Its just the price you pay for being in a wildly over-paid, over-valued field. Donatell is a veteran, He knows the ropes.

As far as the WIlfs psyche, I have been saying for years that we are nowhere near a SuperBowl contender, both because I never did believe that Cousins had it in him to persevere and lead (this year was a big upgrade from him) and because we have utterly failed to build our front lines. Now time passing has made this even worse. Our secondary is aging. Our contracts are ballooning, and the draft choices we have made lately havent been game changers. There is a lot of rebuilding needed. Sadly, I think the Wilfs are happy in the knowledge that Vikings Fans are drinking the Purple Kool-Aid and will sell out the stadium with the smoke and mirrors we saw this year. I hope I am wrong and that they have the guts to make the painful/risky moves to build a true winner.

When have we ever been a Super Bowl contender since our last super bowl. Yes that 15 1 season was our best but the D wasn't good and our QB was bad. That team fell apart the following year. QB lasted one month because he sucked and was benched. End of story. The Wilfs aren't football people. There not the ones making the draft picks or trading down. There not putting a D scheme in that we have no players for. The order might have been don't become crap so the stadium is half empty. We need the income. It's a business and we can't lose all our money. The let the GM spend. Our current GM doesn't have the eye for players. We got zero help from the draft. He was wheeling and dealing for nothing. It was an embarrassment. He told all he was the smartest guy in the NFL. I don't see it.

[VikingLord]

When have we ever been a Super Bowl contender since our last super bowl. Yes that 15 1 season was our best but the D wasn't good and our QB was bad.

In terms of consistent contender as measured on a multi-year ability to compete for a berth in the Superbowl, not since the first half of the 70's.

In terms of a team that was capable of making it to a Superbowl, the 1987 team could have done it, as could the 1998 and 2009 teams. None of those teams were sustainable models, but each had pieces that, when the stars aligned, were capable of getting to and possibly winning their respective Superbowl. Unfortunately, the stars didn't align fully for any of them.

I think the 2001 and 2017 teams were pretenders who lucked into some fortunate post-season outcomes that enabled them to go farther than they otherwise would have. The 2001 team benefited from the Saints knocking the Rams out early, while the 2017 team benefited from the Saints having a safety who was so keen to avoid a PI call that he also avoided preventing a walk-off TD.

Post 2017, I'd say the Vikings have been almost as consistently far from being a Superbowl contender as any period in their history. They've had much worse teams some of those years, but in terms of ceiling they're not close, and there is almost no evidence they are improving year-over-year in that regard, either. They're a lot like the early 90's versions of the Vikings under Denny Green - competitive for the playoffs and perennially searching to plug what seem like intractable holes in the roster, but not much more. Green's early 90's teams had the excuse of the draft fallout from the Walker trade, however, as an explanation for his inability to plug those holes. The Vikings of these last several years don't have that excuse - they've just largely been bad at finding talent in the latter rounds of recent drafts, especially on the defensive side of the football.

[Foreman44]

I quoted you here. But not directed at you.

Guilty here. I wanted change. Our defense reaked.."
I was hoping we dumped Zimmer a year earlier..

I have a feeling the vast majority wanted change.

Yet feels so cold. People forget Donatell is hired.. he had to pack up, move to minn, unpack, some having to get kids settled in school.
One year later, he is fired..again have to remove kids from school, pack up personal goods, hope for another job, move again, enrol kids back in another school. That kind of life has to stink.

It’s easy to want Donatel fired. But I think many forget how tough it has to be for him. He is a person, has a family. They are affected as well

Oh yeah I'm sure it sucks but that's the nature of the business too.

Agree it’s the nature of the business. But everyone is so excited he is fired. I doubt anyone even thought he is a person. Not a robot.How hard it is for him, his family,kids.Especiallyif older..Twice in one year. Moved/moving one city to another, moved kids one school to another, now another. That's hard on the kids...yes it’s the nature of the job. They make good money.

I am retired military.transferred one command to another, every 2-4 years.charleston S.C was my last command. Two in high school. Being a Alabama fan, planned to retire Tuscaloosa Ala. kids didn’t want to leave again..I understand to a point how it is.."

He understands that, his decision.

If I was a betting man. It would be that the vast majority happy he is gone, not even understanding. They are just so happy he is gone

As for me The vikings had little choice in letting him go.
Best wishes to coach D and his family. Wishing them my best

[CharVike]

When have we ever been a Super Bowl contender since our last super bowl. Yes that 15 1 season was our best but the D wasn't good and our QB was bad.

In terms of consistent contender as measured on a multi-year ability to compete for a berth in the Superbowl, not since the first half of the 70's.

In terms of a team that was capable of making it to a Superbowl, the 1987 team could have done it, as could the 1998 and 2009 teams. None of those teams were sustainable models, but each had pieces that, when the stars aligned, were capable of getting to and possibly winning their respective Superbowl. Unfortunately, the stars didn't align fully for any of them.

I think the 2001 and 2017 teams were pretenders who lucked into some fortunate post-season outcomes that enabled them to go farther than they otherwise would have. The 2001 team benefited from the Saints knocking the Rams out early, while the 2017 team benefited from the Saints having a safety who was so keen to avoid a PI call that he also avoided preventing a walk-off TD.

Post 2017, I'd say the Vikings have been almost as consistently far from being a Superbowl contender as any period in their history. They've had much worse teams some of those years, but in terms of ceiling they're not close, and there is almost no evidence they are improving year-over-year in that regard, either. They're a lot like the early 90's versions of the Vikings under Denny Green - competitive for the playoffs and perennially searching to plug what seem like intractable holes in the roster, but not much more. Green's early 90's teams had the excuse of the draft fallout from the Walker trade, however, as an explanation for his inability to plug those holes. The Vikings of these last several years don't have that excuse - they've just largely been bad at finding talent in the latter rounds of recent drafts, especially on the defensive side of the football.

That 1987 team was good and we had some young talent. I thought Wilson had found his grove. Millard getting hurt and most of all Wilson just falling back hurt. Those few seasons were my favorite. I even liked Burns he let the coaches do their job and had their back. Browner and Lee were two very good secondary players. You know the players. I thought we had it. What we have now isn't close. Much better at QB but nothing on D. I mean nothing. It will take a long time to restock for a new scheme. Years like this with no great lbers from the draft we won't get much there. Talk about an uphill battle. We make it harder on ourselves.

[CharVike]

Vikings Conclude Initial Interview with Mike Pettine for Defensive Coordinator Job. What a shock. Being buddies with KOC certainly can't hurt his chances. The guy was interviewed the entire season. This is all part of the standard for excellence process. Hope they changed that process since it has some flaws that need to be ironed out. His defense gave up 285 yards rushing to the 49ers in a playoff game. How is that even possible?

[StumpHunter]

When have we ever been a Super Bowl contender since our last super bowl. Yes that 15 1 season was our best but the D wasn't good and our QB was bad.

In terms of consistent contender as measured on a multi-year ability to compete for a berth in the Superbowl, not since the first half of the 70's.

In terms of a team that was capable of making it to a Superbowl, the 1987 team could have done it, as could the 1998 and 2009 teams. None of those teams were sustainable models, but each had pieces that, when the stars aligned, were capable of getting to and possibly winning their respective Superbowl. Unfortunately, the stars didn't align fully for any of them.

I think the 2001 and 2017 teams were pretenders who lucked into some fortunate post-season outcomes that enabled them to go farther than they otherwise would have. The 2001 team benefited from the Saints knocking the Rams out early, while the 2017 team benefited from the Saints having a safety who was so keen to avoid a PI call that he also avoided preventing a walk-off TD.

Post 2017, I'd say the Vikings have been almost as consistently far from being a Superbowl contender as any period in their history. They've had much worse teams some of those years, but in terms of ceiling they're not close, and there is almost no evidence they are improving year-over-year in that regard, either. They're a lot like the early 90's versions of the Vikings under Denny Green - competitive for the playoffs and perennially searching to plug what seem like intractable holes in the roster, but not much more. Green's early 90's teams had the excuse of the draft fallout from the Walker trade, however, as an explanation for his inability to plug those holes. The Vikings of these last several years don't have that excuse - they've just largely been bad at finding talent in the latter rounds of recent drafts, especially on the defensive side of the football.

Not only do they not have that excuse, they also don't have near the regular season success. Denny made the playoffs 8 out of his 10 seasons as a head coach and one of those years had the best Vikings team I have seen in my lifetime. They had a 260 point differential, and won by an average of 16.3 points. Only the 1969 SB losing Vikings were better in the regular season.

Since 2017, the Vikings have made the playoffs twice and are going on 3 straight seasons of a negative point differential. They gave up one more point over last season, and scored 1 fewer despite moving on from a head coach who was supposedly holding both the offense and defense. They are not headed in the right direction and I hope the Wilfs realize, after watching 4 really good teams make it to the conference championship, just how far away the Vikings are and allow Kwesi to actually do his job and build a championship.