Re: DL. I would say just about every single one. We got almost zero pressure on Jones last night. Hunter and Phillips are the two I might build around, but in general DL is such an important position and we just haven't devoted enough resources to it. Instead, we invest heavily in RB, LB, and S, and the returns we've been getting at those positions are not good.
Jones was getting rid of the ball very quickly or running before pressure could get to him. Still, he was pressured more than Burrow was last night and that was enough to hold a top 3 offense to just 17 points.
Tomlinson, Phillips, Hunter and Z are a top 5 defensive line. The Viking could look to add a pass rushing tackle to come in on obvious passing situations, but there isn't a lot of room for improvement here.
Jones had all day to sit back and let his plays develop. He was not getting the ball out quickly by my eye test. I'd love to see objective numbers on that since our impressions are so different. I'll look into it.
Top 5 D line is horribly inaccurate, IMO. In the regular season, we generated 38 sacks, which is 22nd in the league. We were 30th in points given up (25.1). We were 22nd vs. the run and 31st vs. the pass. If we had a top 5 DL, none of these rankings would be in the lower third of the league.
I would agree, however, that we are EVEN WORSE at LB and the secondary than DL. It's just that DL is so crucial in today's game. Maybe the way forward is a combo of a change in scheme and improved talent at ILB and secondary?
looking at the season as a whole, The DL never had a stretch where you saw THEM control the line and consistently surge forward. We are undersized and not particularly excellent in technique. Our LBs looked like fools yesterday, constantly getting fooled by simple jukes, falling over, missing tackles, or just getting over powered, getting to the ball late. The Veterans are just too old and very few young guys look to be potential studs. When you combine a weak front line that allows the offense a ton of time to run their plays with a mediocre backfield, it just multiplies your short coming. Everything starts at he front line
"According to the good folks over at NFL Research, Jones became the first player in league history with 300-plus passing yards, two-plus passing touchdowns and 75-plus rushing yards in the same postseason game." Thanks, Ed.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:15 pm
Jones was getting rid of the ball very quickly or running before pressure could get to him. Still, he was pressured more than Burrow was last night and that was enough to hold a top 3 offense to just 17 points.
Tomlinson, Phillips, Hunter and Z are a top 5 defensive line. The Viking could look to add a pass rushing tackle to come in on obvious passing situations, but there isn't a lot of room for improvement here.
Jones had all day to sit back and let his plays develop. He was not getting the ball out quickly by my eye test. I'd love to see objective numbers on that since our impressions are so different. I'll look into it.
Top 5 D line is horribly inaccurate, IMO. In the regular season, we generated 38 sacks, which is 22nd in the league. We were 30th in points given up (25.1). We were 22nd vs. the run and 31st vs. the pass. If we had a top 5 DL, none of these rankings would be in the lower third of the league.
I would agree, however, that we are EVEN WORSE at LB and the secondary than DL. It's just that DL is so crucial in today's game. Maybe the way forward is a combo of a change in scheme and improved talent at ILB and secondary?
Agreed on just about all counts. This isn’t a top 5 DL. I would say the Hunter/Smith combo flirts with top 5 but not our interior. Tomlinson is good and Phillips seems like just a guy to me. Problem with them, they are all known run stuffing guys. Same with Tonga who is in there often.
So let’s put it this way, so many pointed out the fact that we aren’t getting pressure. That was true but can anyone possibly blame hunter or smith?
Think about it, we were one of the lowest blitzing teams in the nfl, which is a disadvantage to hunter and smith. We have two run stuffing DTs that don’t generate any sort of pass rush, which is a disadvantage to hunter and smith. We show the same look snap after snap, which is a disadvantage to smith and hunter. And in the end both of those guys had double digit sacks and were top 10 in the nfl in pressures.
This is why I think they are a top 5 duo but Ed Donatell gave these guys absolutely zero help. They were our only source of getting pressure. Sprinkle in Wonnum and Jones but smith and hunter were absolutely left on an island and were expected to light the world on fire.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
This defense and salaries were left behind by Spielman and co.
My biggest issue is with Spielman. All of those years of trading away from the talent to accumulate later round picks shows us a very average roster at best.
The new players that Kwesi put in the locker room were significantly better. Look at the FA players, they all started. The draft picks contributed, unless injured.
With that being said,. we only have 4 draft picks this year. I hope to trade down and accumulate additional picks for this year and next. I really liked Kwesi's first draft. The trade for TJ.
Btw, Onatell (No D) sucks !!!
I guess the reason this loss bugs me so much is because I honestly believe that this team had enough talent on field to at least make a better run at the Super Bowl. That's not to say that they didn't have weaknesses. Of course they did. Are some of players older and slower than you might like. Of course. All teams do. But, I'll say it again..they were GOOD ENOUGH. The coaching was bad and it's the reason why the players bailed them out all year and pulled out wins. To me, the two BIGGEST problems were 1) the obvious...the defensive schemes, and Donetell's unwillingness to change. (KOC has to take responsibility in that too) 2) too many offensive drives cut short because of horrific 3rd and short play calls. You always hear how you don't want to be in 3rd and long situations. Heck, it actually got to the point where I preferred 3rd and long over 3rd and short. They probably converted more of those.
I'm converted Cousins fan. I think he had a great year and a great game. It's a shame that he didn't have enough Keenum in him to throw the ball to Jefferson in that situation. Look, when I coached Little League, you always tell your kids that when they are in the field that they need to ask themselves "What do I do if the ball is hit to me". You have to know ahead of time. Cousins should have told himself, pre-snap, that if Jefferson and other receivers are covered on first look, he's throwing to Jefferson. Doesn't matter if he's double covered.
Let's hope KOC learns from this, and also that Donatell is gone.
KOC will get better. This was his 1st year as Head Coach and play caller. I guarantee that he evaluates himself also. His strengths and weaknesses. Why do I say this? It's what the best ones do. He cares a ton, you can see it, and he has that fire. I really do agree that Donatell needs to be replaced. Even with a 3-4 defense that we obviously cannot excel at with this personnel, he continues to stick to it. Eventually that square peg will get in the round hole.
….just imagine if we had just a middle of the road defense. The offense carried this team to 13 wins no doubt about it. And I honestly think that the turnover this defense had, which ranked fairly high was simply playmakers making plays but were put in bad positions the entire year with this scheme or lack there of.
———————————————————
Stat #2
The Vikings are the only team in the SB era to complete 80% of their passes with no turnovers and no sacks allowed and still lose (regular season or postseason). NFL teams are 47-0 in the SB era with doing all of that in a game until yesterday
….goes to show how much our defense killed us yesterday. When you give up 31 points to a team that’s put up 30+ once all year, a QB that’s thrown 15 tds all season and a QB that has zero receiving options, that’s as bad as it gets for your defense
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
This team couldn't be counted on to get the crucial 3 yards or stop the opposition from getting the crucial three yards. That kind of team usually doesn't do much better than .500
By the end of the regular season, pretty clear that records aside the vikings were the third best team in the NFC north and weren't going anywhere this year.
fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:15 am
Paper tigers.
This team couldn't be counted on to get the crucial 3 yards or stop the opposition from getting the crucial three yards. That kind of team usually doesn't do much better than .500
By the end of the regular season, pretty clear that records aside the vikings were the third best team in the NFC north and weren't going anywhere this year.
Media called us out and we proved them right, I dunno if I want to hang my hat on a fluke 13-4 season. If anything this fluke season hurt us IMO, just the kind of season where management thinks this team is close when they really aren’t. There are two teams in our division trending upwards, and our future especially next year looks like crap. After looking at the teams we play next year I’ll guarantee we don’t produce the same record, I doubt we even get 10.
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson
Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:20 pm
Couple alarming stats that I saw and I think it goes to show how much this offense carried us and how much this defense hurt us.
Stat #1:
Records of teams with the last ranked defense in the nfl (yards and ppg combined)
….just imagine if we had just a middle of the road defense. The offense carried this team to 13 wins no doubt about it. And I honestly think that the turnover this defense had, which ranked fairly high was simply playmakers making plays but were put in bad positions the entire year with this scheme or lack there of.
———————————————————
Stat #2
The Vikings are the only team in the SB era to complete 80% of their passes with no turnovers and no sacks allowed and still lose (regular season or postseason). NFL teams are 47-0 in the SB era with doing all of that in a game until yesterday
….goes to show how much our defense killed us yesterday. When you give up 31 points to a team that’s put up 30+ once all year, a QB that’s thrown 15 tds all season and a QB that has zero receiving options, that’s as bad as it gets for your defense
I hadn't seen that first stat. That's why the media discourse was calling us fraudulent (or a mirage). We seem to have worked some kind of alchemy or magic this year in order to win those close games. I enjoyed this season precisely because of that "magic," but I was always hesitant to really buy in that we had a legitimate shot. We just didn't have the talent or coaching on D to make noise in the playoffs. I do think that KOC is a heck of a coach and motivator of men. I look forward to this off season to see what he and Kwesi decide to do.
I was looking at defensive stats for 2021 and saw that Zimmer's D wasn't much better than this year's iteration. To me, that indicates a lack of talent, which isn't surprising since we really haven't invested sufficiently (or intelligently) in the D for some years.
Last edited by Texas Vike on Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:20 pm
Couple alarming stats that I saw and I think it goes to show how much this offense carried us and how much this defense hurt us.
Stat #1:
Records of teams with the last ranked defense in the nfl (yards and ppg combined)
….just imagine if we had just a middle of the road defense. The offense carried this team to 13 wins no doubt about it. And I honestly think that the turnover this defense had, which ranked fairly high was simply playmakers making plays but were put in bad positions the entire year with this scheme or lack there of.
———————————————————
Stat #2
The Vikings are the only team in the SB era to complete 80% of their passes with no turnovers and no sacks allowed and still lose (regular season or postseason). NFL teams are 47-0 in the SB era with doing all of that in a game until yesterday
….goes to show how much our defense killed us yesterday. When you give up 31 points to a team that’s put up 30+ once all year, a QB that’s thrown 15 tds all season and a QB that has zero receiving options, that’s as bad as it gets for your defense
I hadn't seen that first stat. That's why the media discourse was calling us fraudulent (or a mirage). We seem to have worked some kind of alchemy or magic this year in order to win those close games. I enjoyed this season precisely because of that "magic," but I was always hesitant to really buy in that we had a legitimate shot. We just didn't have the talent or coaching on D to make noise in the playoffs. I do think that KOC is a heck of a coach and motivator of men. I look forward to this off season to see what he and Kwesi decide to do.
I was looking at defensive stats for 2021 and saw that Zimmer's D wasn't much better than this year's iteration. To me, that indicates a lack of talent, which isn't surprising since we really haven't invested sufficiently (or intelligently) in the D for some years.
Something I have been saying for three seasons now. Last year the Vikings lost their only two viable pass rushers halfway through the season, this year there is no such excuse and the D managed to actually be worse.
fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:15 am
Paper tigers.
This team couldn't be counted on to get the crucial 3 yards or stop the opposition from getting the crucial three yards. That kind of team usually doesn't do much better than .500
By the end of the regular season, pretty clear that records aside the vikings were the third best team in the NFC north and weren't going anywhere this year.
Media called us out and we proved them right, I dunno if I want to hang my hat on a fluke 13-4 season. If anything this fluke season hurt us IMO, just the kind of season where management thinks this team is close when they really aren’t. There are two teams in our division trending upwards, and our future especially next year looks like crap. After looking at the teams we play next year I’ll guarantee we don’t produce the same record, I doubt we even get 10.
I wouldn't call any season a fluke. They played the games and that was the record. It's almost impossible to fluke your way through an entire season. Last year the Packers won 13 and that looked like a fluke because they got beat in round 1 at home. They couldn't score with a future HOF QB and some great offensive weapons.The media also said the Packers were coming on and would be in the playoffs. They missed that one. Every team has holes. I give our team credit they played very hard for our new HC. Did things break our way? Yes they did. But to win that many games you need some breaks. The year before Peg missed an easy FG to beat the Cards. This year he hit a 61 yarder for a win. Was that a fluke? I guess. Maybe he will never make one that long again. No sense in even trying again. Our OL was devastated with injuries. We played a D scheme that was a complete joke. Our players didn't fit it. That hurt our team and it showed in the playoffs. Jones looked liked the best QB to play the game. The Giants aren't sold on him and declined the 5th year. We had a bunch of NT/DT on our D line. Who ever thought that would work? Hunter is out in coverage. He can't cover. I don't expect 13 wins next year. Very few teams in today's NFL have duplicate seasons. You don't see teams rip off SB wins in a row. I thought the Chiefs would be there every year. They should make it this year because they are at home again just like last year. If they don't again are they a fluke? The fluke Bills get in every year and get beat. Are they a SB team now? Or was it another fluke season. We beat them in their backyard. I'd call them a fluke also. Your record is what it is. Call it luck a fluke whatever you want. We have talent and we play hard. Donatell took all hope away with his stupid scheme and plugging players into roles that don't fit there skill set. The Giants made him pay the price. They fooled that idiot by putting the ball up and down field.
