Donatel needs the axe

[Pondering Her Percy]

Here's the thing I struggle with when it comes to Donatell....

Is this defense loaded in talent? No. But is it dead last in talent? Not even close. This defense has enough pieces on it to at least be middle of the pack somewhere. And if they were middle of the pack, we dont lose that Lions game.

We have two Edge defenders that teams would kill for, yet they are being drastically underutilized and mismanaged. Hunter has dropped into coverage way too much, he's standing, he's down and all over the place. Donatell is just not putting him in a position to succeed and not accommodating for what Hunter does best.

Smith caught fire early on because Donatell had him moving from outside to inside on rushes. That's great and all but when teams caught on, Smith completely disappeared. But what do we do? Keep sending him to the middle to rush and he constantly gets gobbled up by a double team.

Given it's pretty obvious you have nobody that can push the interior outside of Tomlinson (at times), you cant just rely on your two edge guys to get to the QB every time. Which means you need to dial up more blitzes and various looks to make it complicated for the offense. We just rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage. We are SOOOOO easy to scout on defense right now because we literally do the same thing all game, we dont blitz, we dont give any different looks and we constantly rush four. It's like a permanent prevent defense.

I do think Asamoah needs to be in more for Hicks and needs to be sent on blitzes with his speed. He makes someone like Matt Ryan who is a statue, extremely uncomfortable on a blitz. I will say, Hicks does have great instincts but he's just too slow.

As for our DBs, we have the 32nd ranked pass defense but nobody can get me to believe we have the 32nd group of DBs. Patrick Peterson is a shutdown corner without being a shutdown corner. He's susceptible to getting beat at times but he still puts an extremely high level of fear in QBs and they literally wont throw at him. Bynum had a bad game last week but I thought he's been solid on the year for the most part. Harry is Harry and will always be a stud on instincts and understanding alone. Sullivan has been mediocre in the slot but not nearly as bad as Mac last year. Granted, our #2 CB has been a question mark with Dantzler out and he didnt look like he was ready to come back last week but regardless, there are much worse defensive backfields in the NFL IMO.

Donatell is not putting these players in positions to succeed. They all just have to trust how the scheme is "suppose" to run. He's a Fangio wanna-be that has Fangio's "outline" of a playbook but doesnt really know how to use it or how to adjust in it.

[VikingLord]

The Lions might be 30th in run defense, but the Vikings cannot run the ball, if the last five weeks are any indication. Sunday's game in particular, they're playing a guy in Schlottmann who has like four games of experience, and Brandel to boot.

To be fair to all the teams involved, the four teams the Vikings played against prior to the Lions all were much better statistically than the Lions against the run. While that could be the result of personnel, I'm not so sure it can be chalked up to that alone. I mean, even against those earlier front 7's the Vikings managed a few explosive runs, or at least positive runs. Against the Lions, they couldn't even manage that, and, as I noted earlier, DBs were blitzing in unblocked and making most of the stops in the run game.

Anyway, there is still time to fix some things on both sides of the ball. This is where the coaches show they're worth the money. In failure there is opportunity and we'll see if KOC and Donatell can show they understand that.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The Lions might be 30th in run defense, but the Vikings cannot run the ball, if the last five weeks are any indication. Sunday's game in particular, they're playing a guy in Schlottmann who has like four games of experience, and Brandel to boot.

To be fair to all the teams involved, the four teams the Vikings played against prior to the Lions all were much better statistically than the Lions against the run. While that could be the result of personnel, I'm not so sure it can be chalked up to that alone. I mean, even against those earlier front 7's the Vikings managed a few explosive runs, or at least positive runs. Against the Lions, they couldn't even manage that, and, as I noted earlier, DBs were blitzing in unblocked and making most of the stops in the run game.

Anyway, there is still time to fix some things on both sides of the ball. This is where the coaches show they're worth the money. In failure there is opportunity and we'll see if KOC and Donatell can show they understand that.

I think one massive problem in the run game against the Lions was not having Bradbury. I know some can be hard on Bradbury but I thought he's been much better this year against the pass rush and has always been one of the best run blocking centers in the NFL. Pair that with still not having Darrisaw and you have a significant downgrade in run blocking offense.

[CharVike]

Here's the thing I struggle with when it comes to Donatell....

Is this defense loaded in talent? No. But is it dead last in talent? Not even close. This defense has enough pieces on it to at least be middle of the pack somewhere. And if they were middle of the pack, we dont lose that Lions game.

We have two Edge defenders that teams would kill for, yet they are being drastically underutilized and mismanaged. Hunter has dropped into coverage way too much, he's standing, he's down and all over the place. Donatell is just not putting him in a position to succeed and not accommodating for what Hunter does best.

Smith caught fire early on because Donatell had him moving from outside to inside on rushes. That's great and all but when teams caught on, Smith completely disappeared. But what do we do? Keep sending him to the middle to rush and he constantly gets gobbled up by a double team.

Given it's pretty obvious you have nobody that can push the interior outside of Tomlinson (at times), you cant just rely on your two edge guys to get to the QB every time. Which means you need to dial up more blitzes and various looks to make it complicated for the offense. We just rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage. We are SOOOOO easy to scout on defense right now because we literally do the same thing all game, we dont blitz, we dont give any different looks and we constantly rush four. It's like a permanent prevent defense.

I do think Asamoah needs to be in more for Hicks and needs to be sent on blitzes with his speed. He makes someone like Matt Ryan who is a statue, extremely uncomfortable on a blitz. I will say, Hicks does have great instincts but he's just too slow.

As for our DBs, we have the 32nd ranked pass defense but nobody can get me to believe we have the 32nd group of DBs. Patrick Peterson is a shutdown corner without being a shutdown corner. He's susceptible to getting beat at times but he still puts an extremely high level of fear in QBs and they literally wont throw at him. Bynum had a bad game last week but I thought he's been solid on the year for the most part. Harry is Harry and will always be a stud on instincts and understanding alone. Sullivan has been mediocre in the slot but not nearly as bad as Mac last year. Granted, our #2 CB has been a question mark with Dantzler out and he didnt look like he was ready to come back last week but regardless, there are much worse defensive backfields in the NFL IMO.

Donatell is not putting these players in positions to succeed. They all just have to trust how the scheme is "suppose" to run. He's a Fangio wanna-be that has Fangio's "outline" of a playbook but doesnt really know how to use it or how to adjust in it.

You hit it right on the head. We have 3 NTs as our starting DL. That's a joke. Hunter is a top flight 4-3 DE. He can rush the passer and stop the run. Those type of players are hard to find. You build your D with that as a starting point. Tomlinson is a load inside and can hold the point. Both are learning new positions. KOC is getting hammered in press conferences about the use of players and he only says he's not a defensive expert. Us fans aren't experts either and that is not needed to recognize that Hunter is a top flight DE. Bynum has been taking heat which is ok because he's had some bad games. The guy is in his 2nd year of playing S. I like that he has shown the ability to get TOs. That's key. He saved the Jet game. With zero pass rush every secondary sucks. It always starts at the LOS and works back. This is the latest from Donatel on Hunter. "I think he is getting more comfortable every week. It'll take the whole year. Standing up and playing in our base is a little new to him". That pisses me off. If I was the HC I would call him into my office and tell him pack your #### up and get the F out now. Promote a guy and tell him get back to a 4-3 and attack the QB. Help our secondary. Send Z also because that's his craft. We are at 10-3 but our D has fallen off the table. Do something. Don't throw in the towel.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Here's the thing I struggle with when it comes to Donatell....

Is this defense loaded in talent? No. But is it dead last in talent? Not even close. This defense has enough pieces on it to at least be middle of the pack somewhere. And if they were middle of the pack, we dont lose that Lions game.

We have two Edge defenders that teams would kill for, yet they are being drastically underutilized and mismanaged. Hunter has dropped into coverage way too much, he's standing, he's down and all over the place. Donatell is just not putting him in a position to succeed and not accommodating for what Hunter does best.

Smith caught fire early on because Donatell had him moving from outside to inside on rushes. That's great and all but when teams caught on, Smith completely disappeared. But what do we do? Keep sending him to the middle to rush and he constantly gets gobbled up by a double team.

Given it's pretty obvious you have nobody that can push the interior outside of Tomlinson (at times), you cant just rely on your two edge guys to get to the QB every time. Which means you need to dial up more blitzes and various looks to make it complicated for the offense. We just rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage, rush four, drop coverage. We are SOOOOO easy to scout on defense right now because we literally do the same thing all game, we dont blitz, we dont give any different looks and we constantly rush four. It's like a permanent prevent defense.

I do think Asamoah needs to be in more for Hicks and needs to be sent on blitzes with his speed. He makes someone like Matt Ryan who is a statue, extremely uncomfortable on a blitz. I will say, Hicks does have great instincts but he's just too slow.

As for our DBs, we have the 32nd ranked pass defense but nobody can get me to believe we have the 32nd group of DBs. Patrick Peterson is a shutdown corner without being a shutdown corner. He's susceptible to getting beat at times but he still puts an extremely high level of fear in QBs and they literally wont throw at him. Bynum had a bad game last week but I thought he's been solid on the year for the most part. Harry is Harry and will always be a stud on instincts and understanding alone. Sullivan has been mediocre in the slot but not nearly as bad as Mac last year. Granted, our #2 CB has been a question mark with Dantzler out and he didnt look like he was ready to come back last week but regardless, there are much worse defensive backfields in the NFL IMO.

Donatell is not putting these players in positions to succeed. They all just have to trust how the scheme is "suppose" to run. He's a Fangio wanna-be that has Fangio's "outline" of a playbook but doesnt really know how to use it or how to adjust in it.

You hit it right on the head. We have 3 NTs as our starting DL. That's a joke. Hunter is a top flight 4-3 DE. He can rush the passer and stop the run. Those type of players are hard to find. You build your D with that as a starting point. Tomlinson is a load inside and can hold the point. Both are learning new positions. KOC is getting hammered in press conferences about the use of players and he only says he's not a defensive expert. Us fans aren't experts either and that is not needed to recognize that Hunter is a top flight DE. Bynum has been taking heat which is ok because he's had some bad games. The guy is in his 2nd year of playing S. I like that he has shown the ability to get TOs. That's key. He saved the Jet game. With zero pass rush every secondary sucks. It always starts at the LOS and works back. This is the latest from Donatel on Hunter. "I think he is getting more comfortable every week. It'll take the whole year. Standing up and playing in our base is a little new to him". That pisses me off. If I was the HC I would call him into my office and tell him pack your #### up and get the F out now. Promote a guy and tell him get back to a 4-3 and attack the QB. Help our secondary. Send Z also because that's his craft. We are at 10-3 but our D has fallen off the table. Do something. Don't throw in the towel.

That's my worry too is if KOC lets this go on too long, he's going to ruin a great season. My hot take though, this defense will look different Saturday against the Colts. In the sense that we will be either playing more press coverage, blitzing more, sending different looks, a combination of both or all. Something. Because KOC is taking a lot of heat in pressers with what's going on in this defense. And he isnt stupid, he's noticing it too. I have a really hard time believing with as much heat as the defensive play calling has taken this week, that KOC goes into the Indy game and says, "yup Ed, keep doing what you're doing".

To be honest, what could Donatell's response to not blitzing even be? "Well we have to be careful we dont get burned"? Guess what, you already are!! You're dead last in the league already in pass defense. Try something new because it's clearly not working. If you continue to get burned then I guess we'll stay 32nd but at least give it a damn shot!

[CharVike]

You hit it right on the head. We have 3 NTs as our starting DL. That's a joke. Hunter is a top flight 4-3 DE. He can rush the passer and stop the run. Those type of players are hard to find. You build your D with that as a starting point. Tomlinson is a load inside and can hold the point. Both are learning new positions. KOC is getting hammered in press conferences about the use of players and he only says he's not a defensive expert. Us fans aren't experts either and that is not needed to recognize that Hunter is a top flight DE. Bynum has been taking heat which is ok because he's had some bad games. The guy is in his 2nd year of playing S. I like that he has shown the ability to get TOs. That's key. He saved the Jet game. With zero pass rush every secondary sucks. It always starts at the LOS and works back. This is the latest from Donatel on Hunter. "I think he is getting more comfortable every week. It'll take the whole year. Standing up and playing in our base is a little new to him". That pisses me off. If I was the HC I would call him into my office and tell him pack your #### up and get the F out now. Promote a guy and tell him get back to a 4-3 and attack the QB. Help our secondary. Send Z also because that's his craft. We are at 10-3 but our D has fallen off the table. Do something. Don't throw in the towel.

That's my worry too is if KOC lets this go on too long, he's going to ruin a great season. My hot take though, this defense will look different Saturday against the Colts. In the sense that we will be either playing more press coverage, blitzing more, sending different looks, a combination of both or all. Something. Because KOC is taking a lot of heat in pressers with what's going on in this defense. And he isnt stupid, he's noticing it too. I have a really hard time believing with as much heat as the defensive play calling has taken this week, that KOC goes into the Indy game and says, "yup Ed, keep doing what you're doing".

To be honest, what could Donatell's response to not blitzing even be? "Well we have to be careful we dont get burned"? Guess what, you already are!! You're dead last in the league already in pass defense. Try something new because it's clearly not working. If you continue to get burned then I guess we'll stay 32nd but at least give it a damn shot!

KOC will do something. He has no choice at this point. Our D is spinning out of control with no end in sight. We don't have the bodies to be top 10 but we certainly have the bodies to get middle of the pack. We are a long way from that and not much time is left. He even said he will get more involved.

[TheCoolerOne]

You hit it right on the head. We have 3 NTs as our starting DL. That's a joke. Hunter is a top flight 4-3 DE. He can rush the passer and stop the run. Those type of players are hard to find. You build your D with that as a starting point. Tomlinson is a load inside and can hold the point. Both are learning new positions. KOC is getting hammered in press conferences about the use of players and he only says he's not a defensive expert. Us fans aren't experts either and that is not needed to recognize that Hunter is a top flight DE. Bynum has been taking heat which is ok because he's had some bad games. The guy is in his 2nd year of playing S. I like that he has shown the ability to get TOs. That's key. He saved the Jet game. With zero pass rush every secondary sucks. It always starts at the LOS and works back. This is the latest from Donatel on Hunter. "I think he is getting more comfortable every week. It'll take the whole year. Standing up and playing in our base is a little new to him". That pisses me off. If I was the HC I would call him into my office and tell him pack your #### up and get the F out now. Promote a guy and tell him get back to a 4-3 and attack the QB. Help our secondary. Send Z also because that's his craft. We are at 10-3 but our D has fallen off the table. Do something. Don't throw in the towel.

That's my worry too is if KOC lets this go on too long, he's going to ruin a great season. My hot take though, this defense will look different Saturday against the Colts. In the sense that we will be either playing more press coverage, blitzing more, sending different looks, a combination of both or all. Something. Because KOC is taking a lot of heat in pressers with what's going on in this defense. And he isnt stupid, he's noticing it too. I have a really hard time believing with as much heat as the defensive play calling has taken this week, that KOC goes into the Indy game and says, "yup Ed, keep doing what you're doing".

To be honest, what could Donatell's response to not blitzing even be? "Well we have to be careful we dont get burned"? Guess what, you already are!! You're dead last in the league already in pass defense. Try something new because it's clearly not working. If you continue to get burned then I guess we'll stay 32nd but at least give it a damn shot!

I think we should try to blitz more, but I don't think the problem is the whether or not we have three or four down lineman. The pass rushers are winning their reps, but QBs can get the ball out so quickly it doesn't matter.

The secondary is filled with bad players. Peterson and Smith are real savvy, and have ironically excelled either because of or in spite of this scheme, but the rest..heh.

-Dantzler is not good, and almost certainly won't be resigned, not to mention can't stay on the field

-Sullivan was already the weak link heading into the season, and that was thought of as reasonable if everyone else was above average.

-Shelley is a crucial late-game PI waiting to happen (has it already?)

-Booth has been hurt since high school, and while he may have potential, he's a ways away.

-Evans talks the talk, but has only flashed walking the walk.

-Bynum was a CB drafted at Safety, still learning, and a ton of busted plays have been the result of him.

None of this is news to anyone, surely, but what can we really expect to accomplish rushing the passer when as soon as the ball is snapped there is an open receiver?

There may be some scheme issue, but I don't think we'll really know until we have players in the secondary that can operate in it at a high level. You can't just throw out the playbook and install a new scheme. The players are all already thinking too much, and now the solution is to tell them not to think about any of that, start thinking about this?

Maybe it just takes time, and we've exceeded expectations, so that makes it tough to reconcile.

I hope they can figure it out at least to improve passably, but it was always going to come down to trading TDs in the playoffs anyway.

[Pondering Her Percy]

That's my worry too is if KOC lets this go on too long, he's going to ruin a great season. My hot take though, this defense will look different Saturday against the Colts. In the sense that we will be either playing more press coverage, blitzing more, sending different looks, a combination of both or all. Something. Because KOC is taking a lot of heat in pressers with what's going on in this defense. And he isnt stupid, he's noticing it too. I have a really hard time believing with as much heat as the defensive play calling has taken this week, that KOC goes into the Indy game and says, "yup Ed, keep doing what you're doing".

To be honest, what could Donatell's response to not blitzing even be? "Well we have to be careful we dont get burned"? Guess what, you already are!! You're dead last in the league already in pass defense. Try something new because it's clearly not working. If you continue to get burned then I guess we'll stay 32nd but at least give it a damn shot!

I think we should try to blitz more, but I don't think the problem is the whether or not we have three or four down lineman. The pass rushers are winning their reps, but QBs can get the ball out so quickly it doesn't matter.

The secondary is filled with bad players. Peterson and Smith are real savvy, and have ironically excelled either because of or in spite of this scheme, but the rest..heh.

-Dantzler is not good, and almost certainly won't be resigned, not to mention can't stay on the field

-Sullivan was already the weak link heading into the season, and that was thought of as reasonable if everyone else was above average.

-Shelley is a crucial late-game PI waiting to happen (has it already?)

-Booth has been hurt since high school, and while he may have potential, he's a ways away.

-Evans talks the talk, but has only flashed walking the walk.

-Bynum was a CB drafted at Safety, still learning, and a ton of busted plays have been the result of him.

None of this is news to anyone, surely, but what can we really expect to accomplish rushing the passer when as soon as the ball is snapped there is an open receiver?

There may be some scheme issue, but I don't think we'll really know until we have players in the secondary that can operate in it at a high level. You can't just throw out the playbook and install a new scheme. The players are all already thinking too much, and now the solution is to tell them not to think about any of that, start thinking about this?

Maybe it just takes time, and we've exceeded expectations, so that makes it tough to reconcile.

I hope they can figure it out at least to improve passably, but it was always going to come down to trading TDs in the playoffs anyway.

I disagree on Dantzler. He wasnt good against Detroit but also didnt look like himself or look like he was back in game shape. All I know is, he was the highest graded rookie corner in 2020, last year he was the 19th highest graded corner and #1 in run defense. His first two years, he was quietly a top 20-25 corner in the NFL.

This is exactly what people did with Dantzler when Detroit won their first game against us last year and Dantzler gave up that TD. Everyone hopped on the "Dantzler sucks" train over one bad play. Now people are hopping on the "Dantzler sucks" train again because he didnt play good in his first game back from injury. Anyone that watched the game saw that he looked slow. That's not the normal Dantzler. Either he was ready to come back and rushed it or he just wasnt in game shape. Also, Dantzler always strived in press coverage in college and in Zim's scheme. But when you have Donatell and he's having his corners line up in the grandstands when it's 2nd and 2, that's a Donatell problem, not a Dantzler problem.

Dantzler is a good corner. But another one that's being mismanaged by Donatell. If he excels in press coverage, get him in fricken press coverage. No different with Danielle, if he's better with his hand in the dirt, put his damn hand in the dirt. Donatell is too much "by the book" right now and in the mindset of "trust the scheme" that he's completely clueless to the talent he has on his defense and has no idea how to maximize their talents.

[TheCoolerOne]

I think we should try to blitz more, but I don't think the problem is the whether or not we have three or four down lineman. The pass rushers are winning their reps, but QBs can get the ball out so quickly it doesn't matter.

The secondary is filled with bad players. Peterson and Smith are real savvy, and have ironically excelled either because of or in spite of this scheme, but the rest..heh.

-Dantzler is not good, and almost certainly won't be resigned, not to mention can't stay on the field

-Sullivan was already the weak link heading into the season, and that was thought of as reasonable if everyone else was above average.

-Shelley is a crucial late-game PI waiting to happen (has it already?)

-Booth has been hurt since high school, and while he may have potential, he's a ways away.

-Evans talks the talk, but has only flashed walking the walk.

-Bynum was a CB drafted at Safety, still learning, and a ton of busted plays have been the result of him.

None of this is news to anyone, surely, but what can we really expect to accomplish rushing the passer when as soon as the ball is snapped there is an open receiver?

There may be some scheme issue, but I don't think we'll really know until we have players in the secondary that can operate in it at a high level. You can't just throw out the playbook and install a new scheme. The players are all already thinking too much, and now the solution is to tell them not to think about any of that, start thinking about this?

Maybe it just takes time, and we've exceeded expectations, so that makes it tough to reconcile.

I hope they can figure it out at least to improve passably, but it was always going to come down to trading TDs in the playoffs anyway.

I disagree on Dantzler. He wasnt good against Detroit but also didnt look like himself or look like he was back in game shape. All I know is, he was the highest graded rookie corner in 2020, last year he was the 19th highest graded corner and #1 in run defense. His first two years, he was quietly a top 20-25 corner in the NFL.

This is exactly what people did with Dantzler when Detroit won their first game against us last year and Dantzler gave up that TD. Everyone hopped on the "Dantzler sucks" train over one bad play. Now people are hopping on the "Dantzler sucks" train again because he didnt play good in his first game back from injury. Anyone that watched the game saw that he looked slow. That's not the normal Dantzler. Either he was ready to come back and rushed it or he just wasnt in game shape. Also, Dantzler always strived in press coverage in college and in Zim's scheme. But when you have Donatell and he's having his corners line up in the grandstands when it's 2nd and 2, that's a Donatell problem, not a Dantzler problem.

Dantzler is a good corner. But another one that's being mismanaged by Donatell. If he excels in press coverage, get him in fricken press coverage. No different with Danielle, if he's better with his hand in the dirt, put his damn hand in the dirt. Donatell is too much "by the book" right now and in the mindset of "trust the scheme" that he's completely clueless to the talent he has on his defense and has no idea how to maximize their talents.

Okay, I'm not sure I am on any train, but through three seasons and 26 games played of a possible 46 for various reasons, some coaching, some injury, I'm not inclined to believe he's going to be the guy.

But, regardless, I'm here to discuss--not argue.

Let's say meet in the middle of your cited stat and call him the 22nd best corner this season. He hasn't played in five weeks (really six, I think he was KOed early at Washington,) and that leaves the other guys listed playing major snaps, with no business doing so.

It took about three years to get the right guys for Zimmer's scheme, and it all came together in 2017. Why are we not allowing for Donatell to have any time? If we were 5-8, I bet we'd be discussing what we need to add to get this defense up off the ground in the coming draft(s). We're not, so I understand the desperation to resolve this and shoot our shot this year, I'm on board with that too, but just like you're not writing off Dantzler because of his track record, I'm not willing to write off Donatell with his.

[YikesVikes]

I disagree on Dantzler. He wasnt good against Detroit but also didnt look like himself or look like he was back in game shape. All I know is, he was the highest graded rookie corner in 2020, last year he was the 19th highest graded corner and #1 in run defense. His first two years, he was quietly a top 20-25 corner in the NFL.

This is exactly what people did with Dantzler when Detroit won their first game against us last year and Dantzler gave up that TD. Everyone hopped on the "Dantzler sucks" train over one bad play. Now people are hopping on the "Dantzler sucks" train again because he didnt play good in his first game back from injury. Anyone that watched the game saw that he looked slow. That's not the normal Dantzler. Either he was ready to come back and rushed it or he just wasnt in game shape. Also, Dantzler always strived in press coverage in college and in Zim's scheme. But when you have Donatell and he's having his corners line up in the grandstands when it's 2nd and 2, that's a Donatell problem, not a Dantzler problem.

Dantzler is a good corner. But another one that's being mismanaged by Donatell. If he excels in press coverage, get him in fricken press coverage. No different with Danielle, if he's better with his hand in the dirt, put his damn hand in the dirt. Donatell is too much "by the book" right now and in the mindset of "trust the scheme" that he's completely clueless to the talent he has on his defense and has no idea how to maximize their talents.

Okay, I'm not sure I am on any train, but through three seasons and 26 games played of a possible 46 for various reasons, some coaching, some injury, I'm not inclined to believe he's going to be the guy.

But, regardless, I'm here to discuss--not argue.

Let's say meet in the middle of your cited stat and call him the 22nd best corner this season. He hasn't played in five weeks (really six, I think he was KOed early at Washington,) and that leaves the other guys listed playing major snaps, with no business doing so.

It took about three years to get the right guys for Zimmer's scheme, and it all came together in 2017. Why are we not allowing for Donatell to have any time? If we were 5-8, I bet we'd be discussing what we need to add to get this defense up off the ground in the coming draft(s). We're not, so I understand the desperation to resolve this and shoot our shot this year, I'm on board with that too, but just like you're not writing off Dantzler because of his track record, I'm not willing to write off Donatell with his.

It didn't take 3 years for Zimmer's scheme to come together. We had a paltry offense and that hurt the defense as well. When our offense took off in 2017, the defense was allowed to shine.

As to you other question as to why we should wait. Zimmer was known to be a defensive guru. Donatell is not. He has never had a top 10 defense. He is famous for being the DC that allowed 4 and 26. Zimmer showed improvements from year 1 on defense. I wager our defense is worst today than it was last year. Last year's defense played very well for most of the game but lost it in the 2 mins ( on coach and time management). This defense is getting beat all 4 quarters.

[TheCoolerOne]

Okay, I'm not sure I am on any train, but through three seasons and 26 games played of a possible 46 for various reasons, some coaching, some injury, I'm not inclined to believe he's going to be the guy.

But, regardless, I'm here to discuss--not argue.

Let's say meet in the middle of your cited stat and call him the 22nd best corner this season. He hasn't played in five weeks (really six, I think he was KOed early at Washington,) and that leaves the other guys listed playing major snaps, with no business doing so.

It took about three years to get the right guys for Zimmer's scheme, and it all came together in 2017. Why are we not allowing for Donatell to have any time? If we were 5-8, I bet we'd be discussing what we need to add to get this defense up off the ground in the coming draft(s). We're not, so I understand the desperation to resolve this and shoot our shot this year, I'm on board with that too, but just like you're not writing off Dantzler because of his track record, I'm not willing to write off Donatell with his.

It didn't take 3 years for Zimmer's scheme to come together. We had a paltry offense and that hurt the defense as well. When our offense took off in 2017, the defense was allowed to shine.

As to you other question as to why we should wait. Zimmer was known to be a defensive guru. Donatell is not. He has never had a top 10 defense. He is famous for being the DC that allowed 4 and 26. Zimmer showed improvements from year 1 on defense. I wager our defense is worst today than it was last year. Last year's defense played very well for most of the game but lost it in the 2 mins ( on coach and time management). This defense is getting beat all 4 quarters.

4th & 26 was, what, 20 years ago?

Feels a little silly to let that be his defining moment.

He may not be on the same tier as Zimmer, but he's certainly made his career as a defensive backs guy. Peterson was not at a Pro-Bowl level last year, most of us weren't even concerned whether or not he was re-signed. He was convinced to come back based on the changes Donatell would make, and apparently it suits him--he's been relatively awesome.

Just like Dantzler, I'm not convinced he's the answer, but based the majority of the personnel we've got behind the defensive line, I'm not inclined to send him packing in the middle of the season.

If these same players get another training camp of this system and are giving up the same type of plays and yardage, I'll be in the front of the line to see him off.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Okay, I'm not sure I am on any train, but through three seasons and 26 games played of a possible 46 for various reasons, some coaching, some injury, I'm not inclined to believe he's going to be the guy.

I'm not sure where you're getting 26/46 from. He's played in 33 of 46 in 3 seasons. The beef Zimmer had with him is old news at this point and shouldnt be held against him, that staff is no longer here. I'm also not saying he's going to be "the guy" either but there's no doubt Dantzler is an above average corner at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's Xavier Rhodes in his prime, but you're acting like the guy cant walk and chew gum. An above average corner has a place on this team.

But, regardless, I'm here to discuss--not argue.

Who said anything about arguing? I disagreed with your take on Cam and explained why.

Let's say meet in the middle of your cited stat and call him the 22nd best corner this season. He hasn't played in five weeks (really six, I think he was KOed early at Washington,) and that leaves the other guys listed playing major snaps, with no business doing so.

Ok? I mean injuries are part of the game? I'm not following. Like it would be great to have players never miss games but unfortunately that happens and it's the next man up.

It took about three years to get the right guys for Zimmer's scheme, and it all came together in 2017. Why are we not allowing for Donatell to have any time? If we were 5-8, I bet we'd be discussing what we need to add to get this defense up off the ground in the coming draft(s). We're not, so I understand the desperation to resolve this and shoot our shot this year, I'm on board with that too, but just like you're not writing off Dantzler because of his track record, I'm not willing to write off Donatell with his.

I disagree. Zimmer took a team that had the 31st ranked defense in the NFL in 2013 under Leslie Frazier and brought them up to 14th in his FIRST season. Zimmer improved this defense in the snap of a finger when he took over this team. Now at the end of Zims tenure, injuries took a toll on the defense and it became really bad again. They were 30th in the NFL in total defense in Zims final year. NOW under Donatell, they are 32nd and this defense has next to no injuries.

2021 under Zim: 383 total yards
2022 under Donatell: 403

2021 under Zim: 253 passing yards
2022 under Donatell: 287 passing yards

These are MASSIVE differences and the defense last year was injured and bad. This year, we are healthy and somehow got drastically worse. That points directly to coach and scheme.

And what track record for Donatell? He was the Broncos DC the last two years UNDER Vic Fangio, a defensive guru. That's all Fangio running that defense, not Donatell. That was like George Edwards under Mike Zimmer. Zim ran that defense, not Edwards.

[TheCoolerOne]

Ok? I mean injuries are part of the game? I'm not following. Like it would be great to have players never miss games but unfortunately that happens and it's the next man up.

My point is we have no depth. If one of our starters is down behind the defensive line, we are playing raw rookies and practice squad fodder, why is that a scheme thing? That sounds like a cap thing, or a GM thing, or a scouting thing.

**And let me add as I did before, Bynum has not been great. Last week we roll out with a rusty Dantzler, a coverage bust-prone Bynum, Metellus (who's weirdly been okay when in), a below average Sullivan, and a below average Shelley.

The few games before that, it was the same thing, sans Dantzler, plus Smith.

After about 5-6 weeks there was a thread started on here about giving the defense it's due. Five or six weeks after that, here we are.

And what track record for Donatell? He was the Broncos DC the last two years UNDER Vic Fangio, a defensive guru. That's all Fangio running that defense, not Donatell. That was like George Edwards under Mike Zimmer. Zim ran that defense, not Edwards.

By that same logic, and it's not bad logic, Kevin O'Connell should have no business being the head coach, as it wasn't his offense, it was McVay's. O'Connell brings it with him, as did Donatell with Fangio's.

[YikesVikes]

It didn't take 3 years for Zimmer's scheme to come together. We had a paltry offense and that hurt the defense as well. When our offense took off in 2017, the defense was allowed to shine.

As to you other question as to why we should wait. Zimmer was known to be a defensive guru. Donatell is not. He has never had a top 10 defense. He is famous for being the DC that allowed 4 and 26. Zimmer showed improvements from year 1 on defense. I wager our defense is worst today than it was last year. Last year's defense played very well for most of the game but lost it in the 2 mins ( on coach and time management). This defense is getting beat all 4 quarters.

4th & 26 was, what, 20 years ago?

Feels a little silly to let that be his defining moment.

He may not be on the same tier as Zimmer, but he's certainly made his career as a defensive backs guy. Peterson was not at a Pro-Bowl level last year, most of us weren't even concerned whether or not he was re-signed. He was convinced to come back based on the changes Donatell would make, and apparently it suits him--he's been relatively awesome.

Just like Dantzler, I'm not convinced he's the answer, but based the majority of the personnel we've got behind the defensive line, I'm not inclined to send him packing in the middle of the season.

If these same players get another training camp of this system and are giving up the same type of plays and yardage, I'll be in the front of the line to see him off.

Pat P is playing at the same level as he did last year. He was good/ had some lapses in coverage and got beat sometimes. What has changed is that the middle of the defense is wide open and there is no reason to challenge Pat P when
1. You can get 9 yards a completion anywhere you want on the field.
2. The turnstile at the other CB position makes for an easy play

You might not have wanted Pat back but I was begging for him to come back.
Not sure how you can defend this scheme when we are giving up 9+ yards a catch. That's almost a 1st down a completion. Do you understand how obscene that number is. Most QBs average 7 yards a completing. Anyone that plays us bumps their average 2+ yards. All this with a defense that has HS, EK, PP, DH, ZS and a couple other capable players. You can't tell me that collection of players should be DEAD LAST in the league and setting FRANCHISE RECORDS in defensive ineptitude. Why do we continue to play offman and not blitz. Fire the idiot.

[CharVike]

That's my worry too is if KOC lets this go on too long, he's going to ruin a great season. My hot take though, this defense will look different Saturday against the Colts. In the sense that we will be either playing more press coverage, blitzing more, sending different looks, a combination of both or all. Something. Because KOC is taking a lot of heat in pressers with what's going on in this defense. And he isnt stupid, he's noticing it too. I have a really hard time believing with as much heat as the defensive play calling has taken this week, that KOC goes into the Indy game and says, "yup Ed, keep doing what you're doing".

To be honest, what could Donatell's response to not blitzing even be? "Well we have to be careful we dont get burned"? Guess what, you already are!! You're dead last in the league already in pass defense. Try something new because it's clearly not working. If you continue to get burned then I guess we'll stay 32nd but at least give it a damn shot!

I think we should try to blitz more, but I don't think the problem is the whether or not we have three or four down lineman. The pass rushers are winning their reps, but QBs can get the ball out so quickly it doesn't matter.

The secondary is filled with bad players. Peterson and Smith are real savvy, and have ironically excelled either because of or in spite of this scheme, but the rest..heh.

-Dantzler is not good, and almost certainly won't be resigned, not to mention can't stay on the field

-Sullivan was already the weak link heading into the season, and that was thought of as reasonable if everyone else was above average.

-Shelley is a crucial late-game PI waiting to happen (has it already?)

-Booth has been hurt since high school, and while he may have potential, he's a ways away.

-Evans talks the talk, but has only flashed walking the walk.

-Bynum was a CB drafted at Safety, still learning, and a ton of busted plays have been the result of him.

None of this is news to anyone, surely, but what can we really expect to accomplish rushing the passer when as soon as the ball is snapped there is an open receiver?

There may be some scheme issue, but I don't think we'll really know until we have players in the secondary that can operate in it at a high level. You can't just throw out the playbook and install a new scheme. The players are all already thinking too much, and now the solution is to tell them not to think about any of that, start thinking about this?

Maybe it just takes time, and we've exceeded expectations, so that makes it tough to reconcile.

I hope they can figure it out at least to improve passably, but it was always going to come down to trading TDs in the playoffs anyway.

That stiff for the Jets can't get the ball out quickly. We had zero pressure on him and he stood there and tore this junk scheme up. The following week he played like the bum he is. They pressured and sacked him 4 times. Our best front line D players Hunter and Tomlinson are 4-3 guys and played good in that scheme. Tomlinson can play NT also. At 324 he can't play DE in any scheme so why put him there? That's why based on the people we have 4-3 fits best. We have that kid Jones to put in at DE. That's what he was in college. In the playoffs it isn't always trading TDs. But I do know this you better play some D. You need to pressure the QB.