More New England Cheating?

[J. Kapp 11]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... footballs/

Oh my gosh, thank you for posting this.

At least one member of the media has a scintilla of integrity to actually ask the opinion of a scientist.

It's the same deal as in when you check pressure in your tires. You do it when the tires are cold, per manufacturer specs. When the tires heat up due to road friction, the pressure rises. Inflating your tires to sidewall specs when your tires are hot will result in under inflated tires. It's exactly the same here.

[The Breeze]

So what?

Don't want anyone to use the rule to their advantage? Write a better rule.

I don't think the rule is there just to have a rule. It was written in the spirit of keeping the playing field level so no one could have what would be considered an unfair advantage.

If they intentionally went around the rule to gain an unfair advantage then they cheated at worst and impinged upon their integrity at least, IMO.

I'm sure there are many takes on it.....that's mine.

Now they will rewrite the rule. The Pats played better with the legal balls in a game they didn't need any extra advantages in. All this thing did was cast them in a worse light as far as crossing the line goes.

[J. Kapp 11]

They wouldn't cop to intentionally skirting a rule to gain an advantage cause it's still cheating. If that's how it happened no one will ever admit to it.

They didn't skirt a rule!

My gosh, this is unbelievable. Read the rule. They are required to turn in 12 footballs to the refs 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time that are within specification. That is the only thing the rule requires. How is that cheating?

I get that a lot of you don't like New England. I get that they got caught cheating with Spygate. But unless there is video evidence of somebody on the New England sideline sticking a needle into a bunch of footballs after the refs approved them, there's no cheating here, no matter how much any of us hate the Patriots.

[J. Kapp 11]

I don't think the rule is there just to have a rule. It was written in the spirit of keeping the playing field level so no one could have what would be considered an unfair advantage.

If they intentionally went around the rule to gain an unfair advantage then they cheated at worst and impinged upon their integrity at least, IMO.

I'm sure there are many takes on it.....that's mine.

Now they will rewrite the rule. The Pats played better with the legal balls in a game they didn't need any extra advantages in. All this thing did was cast them in a worse light as far as crossing the line goes.

When I read the rule, I don't see anything that has anything to do with gaining an unfair advantage. The rule simply describes the football. YOU are reading "no unfair advantage" into the rule.

[The Breeze]

They didn't skirt a rule!

My gosh, this is unbelievable. Read the rule. They are required to turn in 12 footballs to the refs 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time that are within specification. That is the only thing the rule requires. How is that cheating?

I get that a lot of you don't like New England. I get that they got caught cheating with Spygate. But unless there is video evidence of somebody on the New England sideline sticking a needle into a bunch of footballs after the refs approved them, there's no cheating here, no matter how much any of us hate the Patriots.

I've read and understand the rule. I'm just talking about intending to give yourself an unfair advantage. If someone needs rules to keep them from doing that, I question their integrity.
If you know that the result of your actions will give you unfair advantage then you are cheating IMO. I like the Patriots.

[The Breeze]

When I read the rule, I don't see anything that has anything to do with gaining an unfair advantage. The rule simply describes the football. YOU are reading "no unfair advantage" into the rule.

That was the question I had when this all came up...whether or not it was an advantage to have the ball over or under inflated, or if it was just a uniformity thing.

All I've been hearing is that it's an advantage...so that's informed my opinion.

[Raptorman]

Maybe not just an opinion. Click on the link, and watch the video. Three people checking out the difference in ball psi and what it means. Then read the article on the Pats lack of fumbles since 2007. Very interesting.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... 3Fp%3D2932

[The Breeze]

I read somewhere that Brady says that a ball at 11.something lbs felt like magic in his hands.

According to the info on page 1 of this thread, the balls were a full 2llbs below minimum which would put them near 10.5. The balls were brought up to spec for the 2nd half and Brady went 9 for 9.

If you throw out the suggestion that they planned on the balls losing pressure with the weather and just assumed they had all the balls at 12.5(the legal min) when they filled them, it's perfectly possible that it was just a matter of circumstance with no real intent.

[J. Kapp 11]

I've read and understand the rule. I'm just talking about intending to give yourself an unfair advantage. If someone needs rules to keep them from doing that, I question their integrity.
If you know that the result of your actions will give you unfair advantage then you are cheating IMO. I like the Patriots.

So this is about the philosophy of cheating. Great.

The federal tax code allows students to deduct up to $2,500 in student-loan interest from their individual tax returns. Sounds OK, right? Kids need help. But the student can make the deduction EVEN IF THE PARENTS ARE ACTUALLY WRITING THE CHECKS. As long as the student is the one obligated to pay back the loan, he or she can take the deduction.

In your mind, is the student cheating on his/her taxes? Displaying a lack of integrity?

The Supreme Court says the student is NOT cheating ... because they've ruled that it's perfectly legal to legally use the tax code to your advantage.

Here's another example. A number of years ago, Tiger Woods hit an errant tee shot that wound up directly behind a huge boulder. No possible way to hit the ball without moving the boulder ... which is exactly what about 10 spectators did for him. How could Tiger do such a thing? Because by the rules of golf, the boulder was a "loose impediment" that he was entitled to move. Tiger simply used that rule to his advantage.

Using a rule to your advantage is not cheating.

[The Breeze]

The rule is plain and simple: footballs under or over a certain pressure are not considered legal for play. Knowingly finding a loophole in the way the rule is enforced(which is what you are claiming they did) amounts to skirting the rule and cheating.

They are not cheating the system or the league...they are cheating the other team and the fans who believe that everyone has the same advantage when it comes to uniforms and standard equipment.

If player A takes steroids and is able to mask them while being tested and doesn't get busted he is a cheater. If player B unknowingly takes a sports drink or supplement that contains a substance which creates a positive test result, he gets punished even though he wasn't cheating. In the same way the Patriots are responsible for having under inflated footballs for the championship game.

If they were just "the innocent victims of physics", so be it.

If they endeavored to create a situation where they would knowingly wind up on the field with balls under the legal limit then they cheated. How do I know they cheated? Not because of some technicality of physics involved with enforcing that rule....but because I feel cheated as a fan if that is truly the case.

And I'm not disagreeing to be disagreeable, nor am I trying to change your point of view... that's just how I feel about it.

[J. Kapp 11]

The rule is plain and simple: footballs under or over a certain pressure are not considered legal for play. Knowingly finding a loophole in the way the rule is enforced(which is what you are claiming they did) amounts to skirting the rule and cheating.

They are not cheating the system or the league...they are cheating the other team and the fans who believe that everyone has the same advantage when it comes to uniforms and standard equipment.

If player A takes steroids and is able to mask them while being tested and doesn't get busted but he is a cheater. If player B unknowingly takes a sports drink or supplement that contains a substance which creates a positive test result, he gets punished even though he wasn't cheating. In the same way the Patriots are responsible for having under inflated footballs for the championship game. If they endeavored to create a situation where they would knowingly wind up on the field with balls under the legal limit then they cheated. How do I know they cheated? Not because of some technicality of physics involved in enforcing that rule....but because I feel cheated as a fan if that is truly the case.

No offense, but the "I feel cheated" argument is a very sanctimonious point of view that is also completely irrelevant. How you feel has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual rule. And it's not a technicality of physics. It's a scientific fact. The air pressure in a football will drop if the temperature drops.

For the record, your example is way, way off base. In your scenario, both players broke the rules. One player happened to not realize it, while the other didn't get caught. My whole point is that no one has proven the Patriots broke any rule here. Simply turning in footballs that are inflated to 12.5 psi is not a rules violation. In fact, by the rule's very definition, it's the opposite.

And by the way, why are you letting the refs off the hook? It's their job to ensure the balls are legal. That's why teams are required to turn them in 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time. If the balls were under inflated, the officials should have taken them back to the Patriots and made them fix them.

There's a simple fix to this. Write the rule to include a temperature requirement.

[J. Kapp 11]

And Breeze, you didn't answer my question. Did Tiger Woods cheat by moving the boulder?

He certainly gained a competitive advantage.

[Mothman]

There's a simple fix to this. Write the rule to include a temperature requirement.

... or test the balls 10 minutes before game time.

I haven't been thorough in keeping up with this over the past day or two: were the balls the Colts were using ever tested after the initial test 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time?

You've made some excellent points here. However, the game time temperature was about 50 degrees. Unless they inflated those footballs in a very warm place, doesn't that temperature make it unlikely that the ideal gas law can account for the entire 2 pound drop in psi?

[Mothman]

Weren't both teams heating (defrosting would be a better term) the footballs?

I don't know. If they were, then they were both cheating, right?

Maybe we should be questioning the Colts (or any other team that played the Patriots in recent years) for not doing the same?

Perhaps...

[Mothman]

Here's a good read for anyone interested in the physics of this mess:

Football physics and the science of Deflategate