I still believe in Ponder as a starting QB

[Just Me]

Except statistically. Of course, going from a 54.3% completion percentage to 62% and 168 yards/game to 214 is still pretty poor.

To dissect it a little more: Ponder improved from his rookie year in year two. In year three, he has regressed to a "practically identical" passing performance (in terms of passer rating) as his rookie year. So in year 3 (when we would expect him to be establishing himself) he is basically playing like he was when he was a Rookie.

Code: Select all

YR           CMP          ATT          YDS          TD           INT          RAT
2011        158          291          1853         13           13            70.1
2012        300          483          2935         18           12            81.2
2013        98           158          1072         3            6             72.5

[majorm]

Ummm, go back up a few posts to the one from Reignman that dismantles your argument point by point.

And as has been said by many here, the fundamental problem with Ponder is HE CAN NOT THROW THE BALL!!! HE CAN NOT KEEP HIS FOCUS DOWNFIELD WHEN HE GETS A LITTLE PRESSURE!

Sure, he can run a little but that's not what he's there to do. And he should not be there.

[Funkytown]

Here are some of my thoughts on Ponder:

I think that, overall, he has enough tools to be our starter if the rest of the team is playing well around him. We've witnessed that. I know he's foolish at times and doesn't have a deep ball, but I think he has enough talent and intelligence to be a decent quarterback. My issue is: I think he needs to work harder. I question his dedication and work ethic. He knows he needs to improve by a lot, and he knows what his expectations are based on where we drafted him and the fact that he's the starting QB. He needs to get to work: study more film, come early and stay late, pick coaches' and veteran players' brains, etc. He needs to do whatever he can do to get better. I see Peyton Manning, who I happen to think is the best QB in the league, working his butt off after all of these years of being an elite quarterback. It's amazing to watch. I'm not suggesting Ponder could even be close to as good as Manning, but dang it, he could put in the same amount of work, couldn't he? Great athletes don't get great by accident. They work at it. Whether Manning and his team are down by a score or up by three, you see him over on the sidelines looking at crap to improve. He's such a special player. I think it was during the Colts/Broncos game the other week that they were talking about Reggie Wayne and how hard he works. They were telling a story about how he always came to work really early--and when he got there, Peyton was already there getting down to business. Again, two of the NFL's best players in the past decade didn't just wake up excellent. They had to work for it. So does Ponder. I don't think he'll ever be excellent, but he can put in the work towards being good or average, don't you think? Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never read that Ponder was the first guy there and the last to leave type of thing when it involved work ethic. I did, however, read that same thing about MBT. They said he was sticking around after practice, throwing balls to anyone willing to stick around and catch them. He did all that he could to improve. Why is MBT sticking around and putting in the work and Ponder is not? Maybe he has. Maybe I just didn't see it. If anyone has a link (or five) please share it. But, regardless, I think Ponder could do himself a favor by putting in the extra work like so many other NFL players do. And, until I see that kind of effort towards improvement, and ya know, actually bothering to improve on Sundays, I think it's time to move on.

[dkoby]

Another Ponder thread..........

[King James]

Here are some of my thoughts on Ponder:

I think that, overall, he has enough tools to be our starter if the rest of the team is playing well around him. We've witnessed that. I know he's foolish at times and doesn't have a deep ball, but I think he has enough talent and intelligence to be a decent quarterback. My issue is: I think he needs to work harder. I question his dedication and work ethic. He knows he needs to improve by a lot, and he knows what his expectations are based on where we drafted him and the fact that he's the starting QB. He needs to get to work: study more film, come early and stay late, pick coaches' and veteran players' brains, etc. He needs to do whatever he can do to get better. I see Peyton Manning, who I happen to think is the best QB in the league, working his butt off after all of these years of being an elite quarterback. It's amazing to watch. I'm not suggesting Ponder could even be close to as good as Manning, but dang it, he could put in the same amount of work, couldn't he? Great athletes don't get great by accident. They work at it. Whether Manning and his team are down by a score or up by three, you see him over on the sidelines looking at crap to improve. He's such a special player. I think it was during the Colts/Broncos game the other week that they were talking about Reggie Wayne and how hard he works. They were telling a story about how he always came to work really early--and when he got there, Peyton was already there getting down to business. Again, two of the NFL's best players in the past decade didn't just wake up excellent. They had to work for it. So does Ponder. I don't think he'll ever be excellent, but he can put in the work towards being good or average, don't you think? Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never read that Ponder was the first guy there and the last to leave type of thing when it involved work ethic. I did, however, read that same thing about MBT. They said he was sticking around after practice, throwing balls to anyone willing to stick around and catch them. He did all that he could to improve. Why is MBT sticking around and putting in the work and Ponder is not? Maybe he has. Maybe I just didn't see it. If anyone has a link (or five) please share it. But, regardless, I think Ponder could do himself a favor by putting in the extra work like so many other NFL players do. And, until I see that kind of effort towards improvement, and ya know, actually bothering to improve on Sundays, I think it's time to move on.

Interesting. I wonder how does Ponder fare in practice. Better yet how did he fare in training camp? I know the online reports only give a brief update on what the team is doing. Im sure fans who attended them have a better view on how Ponder this offseason leading to the game. No one has really said if Ponder performed badly during training camp or not. I know the couple of preseason games he was in spoke for itself though.. Idk maybe Ponder performs better than practice than he does during the game? I am curious to see how the coaches prepare Ponder during practices. I mean what are they seeing him that the rest of us are not seeing. And Im not buying the "tanking the season" excuse either. It has to be something.

[maembe]

Interesting. I wonder how does Ponder fare in practice. Better yet how did he fare in training camp? I know the online reports only give a brief update on what the team is doing. Im sure fans who attended them have a better view on how Ponder this offseason leading to the game. No one has really said if Ponder performed badly during training camp or not. I know the couple of preseason games he was in spoke for itself though.. Idk maybe Ponder performs better than practice than he does during the game? I am curious to see how the coaches prepare Ponder during practices. I mean what are they seeing him that the rest of us are not seeing. And Im not buying the "tanking the season" excuse either. It has to be something.

From the couple practices + scrimmage that I watched Ponder was the best QB on the roster and it wasn't close. Small sample size, but it was pretty obvious in those few. Ponder has still been better in games than Cassel anyway though, albeit by a much smaller margin.

[mosscarter]

cassell threw for over 200 yards in both his starts and also threw the only two td's jennings has caught all year. oh, and he has our only win. so how can you justify ponder has done better? in my opinion ponder is the worst starting qb in the nfl.

[Orion]

It appears as though my humor is too dry for your taste. As an apology, I offer the following information which may save you from future embarassments. When criticizing another's argument, it's the validity of their logic you should dispute, not whether the logic is smart.

Anyway, Ponder has more bad days than good and is not the answer if any vikings fan and/or anyone in the organization wants this team to win a super bowl.

[majorm]

cassell threw for over 200 yards in both his starts and also threw the only two td's jennings has caught all year. oh, and he has our only win. so how can you justify ponder has done better? in my opinion ponder is the worst starting qb in the nfl.

THIS!

[King James]

cassell threw for over 200 yards in both his starts and also threw the only two td's jennings has caught all year. oh, and he has our only win.

That's only one game though.

[J. Kapp 11]

I could be wrong but he looks much more comfortable throwing outside of the pocket than in. I know the problem of running outside of the pocket eliminates throwing to the WR on the opposite side. Im sure something can be done though. I don't think Ponder can mentally function in the pocket. He seems more accurate when running.
I don't know how reliable sport science is but this video also suggest that Ponder was more accurate on the run than any QB in that class he was drafted with.

Interesting.

You've responded to everybody who mocked you or flamed you, but not to the logical, fact-based argument you said you wanted.

Not to go all psychological here ... oh, hell. Why not? Nobody comes to a message board like this, writes something provocative, then says with any honesty, "I don't care what you think." If you didn't care what we think, you wouldn't have posted it. So here's your chance to prove your football acumen. Counter my argument. I don't think you can. Prove me wrong.

[majorm]

Rofl!

Now he DOES have THAT going for him doesn't he.

[Funkytown]

Interesting. I wonder how does Ponder fare in practice. Better yet how did he fare in training camp? I know the online reports only give a brief update on what the team is doing. Im sure fans who attended them have a better view on how Ponder this offseason leading to the game. No one has really said if Ponder performed badly during training camp or not. I know the couple of preseason games he was in spoke for itself though.. Idk maybe Ponder performs better than practice than he does during the game? I am curious to see how the coaches prepare Ponder during practices. I mean what are they seeing him that the rest of us are not seeing. And Im not buying the "tanking the season" excuse either. It has to be something.

I am pretty interesting, thank you. Nah, kidding. Anyways, from what I gathered, Ponder does, indeed, do better in practice than during the games, but that doesn't matter to me. Good in practice or not, he needs to work harder. He needs to step up and be the leader we expect/need. He needs to be doing all of the things that I shared previously. It probably wouldn't result in greatness, but it couldn't hurt either. As I said, I could be wrong, but I've never read or heard anything about Ponder being that guy. If MBT was the last one to leave, then by default, it wasn't Ponder. I don't understand that. In hindsight, Ponder should have probably had to compete for the starting spot this year. Not saying it would have had a different result, but it would have shown him that he needs to work harder; his work is never done; and nothing is guaranteed. I don't get that from him. He needs to work a lot harder than most to even be average, but he should be willing to do that. As I said, being good/great doesn't happen by accident. People work their tails off to be good in this league. As we know, something might come fairly easily to one person, and the next has to work twice as hard just to achieve the same results. That's with a lot of things. There's no shame in that. I'd like to see that from him...if he's not doing it already. I just want to see more.

P.S. Can you do me a favor and name this thread "Not Another Ponder Sucks Entry Part 5" I think we're at 5!

[maembe]

cassell threw for over 200 yards in both his starts and also threw the only two td's jennings has caught all year. oh, and he has our only win. so how can you justify ponder has done better? in my opinion ponder is the worst starting qb in the nfl.

-The team has scored more points with Ponder in
-Ponder has a higher QBR
-Cassel's stats make him look better than he actually played, and they don't look that good to begin with
-You might be right him being the worst starting QB in the NFL, but only because Cassel isn't starting. Actually, you definitely are not right. Weeden, Whoever is playing for the Jags, Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Shaub, Carson Palmer, Prior, Eli, have been pretty objectively worse than Ponder this season, and there are several more who you can make an argument for.

[Just Me]

-The team has scored more points with Ponder in

This is true. Removing all the Punt/Kick Returns from the scores reveals:

Ponder's Offense - 24.5 ppg
Cassel's Offense - 22.0 ppg

(Less than a FG difference between the two)

-Ponder has a higher QBR

That may be true of the QBR but it is not true of the Passer Rating (still the most widely accepted stat). The QBR has several flaws, not the least od which is ESPNs "close hold" on exactly how it is calculated (which means others cannot check it's accuracy, we just have to take "ESPN's word" for it. The Total QBR system gave the Denver Broncos' Tim Tebow a higher rating than the Green Bay Packers' Aaron Rodgers in their respective Week 5 contests in 2011. Noting that Rodgers completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns in a win over the Atlanta Falcons, while Tebow completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown, and six rushes for 38 yards and a touchdown, in a loss to the San Diego Chargers, Mike Florio of Profootballtalk.com wrote that he'll "continue to ignore ESPN’s Total QBR stat."

As far as Passer Ratings go:

Ponder
Career - 76.3
This Season - 72.5

Cassel
Career - 80.8
This Season - 92.0

-Cassel's stats make him look better than he actually played, and they don't look that good to begin with

This is exactly the same critique that Is given to Ponder. That is also a subjective evaluation. When measuring objectively (forgetting whether or not Ponder is "padding his stats in garbage time" or Cassel "stats look better than he actually played"), Cassel gets the nod.

-You might be right him being the worst starting QB in the NFL, but only because Cassel isn't starting.

We'll have to disagree on this point. I don't think Cassel is a significant upgrade over Ponder, but in terms of what I want a QB to do (pass the ball), he is more decisive, has better pocket awareness, and throws the ball more accurately on 10+ routes. Ponder can run better, but that's not what I really want the strong point of my QB to be.