Vikings grades: Offensive Line
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER
Extracted OG and OT info
PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps
PFF GRADES FA TACKLES
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER
Extracted OG and OT info
PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps
Code: Select all
Kevin Zeitler 87.1 G 27 CIN 1087 UFA
T.J. Lang 85.7 G 29 GB 791 UFA
Larry Warford 82.0 G 26 DET 974 UFA
Austin Pasztor 77.3 G 26 CLV 1020 UFA
Patrick Omameh 77.1 G 27 JAX 454 UFA
Brian Winters 77.1 G 26 NYJ 806 UFA
Stefen Wisniewski 75.2 G 28 PHI 606 UFA
Evan Mathis 74.9 G 35 ARZ 199 UFA
Ryan Jensen 73.1 G 26 BLT 273 RFA
Ted Larsen 72.3 G 30 CHI 581 UFA
Oday Aboushi 71.9 G 26 HST 267 UFA
Tim Lelito 70.5 G 28 NO 405 UFA
T.J. Johnson 69.4 G 27 CIN 95 RFA
Brian Schwenke 67.0 G 26 TEN 248 UFA
Vladimir Ducasse 54.6 G 29 BLT 555 UFA
Chris Scott 51.5 G 30 CAR 295 UFA
Chris Chester 50.5 G 34 ATL 1041 UFA
Chance Warmack 46.6 G 25 TEN 134 UFA
Taylor Boggs 43.4 G 30 ARZ 99 UFA
Jonotthan Harrison 41.8 G 26 IND 453 RFA
Tyler Shatley 39.8 G 26 JAX 316 RFA
Hugh Thornton N/A G 26 IND 0 UFA
Code: Select all
Andrew Whitworth 91.3 T 35 CIN 1064 UFA
Ricky Wagner 84.5 T 27 BLT 926 UFA
Ty Nsekhe 75.4 T 31 WAS 386 RFA
Christopher Hubbard 72.8 T 26 PIT 326 RFA
Cameron Fleming 71.9 T 24 NE 284 RFA
Menelik Watson 70.0 T 28 OAK 255 UFA
Riley Reiff 67.5 T 28 DET 888 UFA
Marshall Newhouse 67.2 T 28 NYG 461 UFA
Cornelius Lucas 67.2 T 26 DET 41 RFA
Mike Remmers 66.1 T 28 CAR 1106 UFA
Jake Long 63.9 T 32 MIN 209 UFA
William Beatty 63.7 T 32 NYG 7 UFA
Eric Winston 59.5 T 33 CIN 279 UFA
Matt McCants 59.5 T 28 CHI 38 UFA
Sam Young 53.2 T 30 MIA 146 UFA
Tony Hills 50.5 T 32 NO 52 UFA
Josh Wells 50.1 T 26 JAX 11 RFA
James Hurst 49.0 T 25 BLT 305 RFA
Tom Compton 47.6 T 28 ATL 69 UFA
Ben Ijalana 47.6 T 28 NYJ 867 UFA
Jordan Mills 44.2 T 26 BUF 1033 UFA
Don Barclay 43.1 T 28 GB 144 UFA
Gosder Cherilus 42.2 T 33 TB 219 UFA
Mike Adams 40.8 T 27 CHI 93 UFA
Andre Smith Jr. 39.3 T 30 MIN 182 UFA
Garry Gilliam 38.1 T 26 SEA 812 RFA
Matt Kalil 36.9 T 28 MIN 121 UFA
Earl Watford 33.9 T 27 ARZ 788 UFA
Bradley Sowell 33.4 T 28 SEA 628 UFA
Sebastian Vollmer N/A T 33 NE 0 UFA
Byron Bell N/A T 28 TEN 0 UFA
Nick Becton N/A T 27 CHI 0 UFA
David Quessenberry N/A T 27 HST 0 UFA
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
I think at this point the only starters we see returning for sure is Boone and Berger.
We need a quality LT and also we could use a RT, then we need to pickup at least a couple offensive line picks in the draft. Could we see a center picked?
We need a quality LT and also we could use a RT, then we need to pickup at least a couple offensive line picks in the draft. Could we see a center picked?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.chicagopurple wrote:Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.
Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Great info there 808!!! I had us signing Wagner for OT and Omameh for guard in my mock. Both are towards the top of the lists808vikingsfan wrote:Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER
Extracted OG and OT info
PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snapsPFF GRADES FA TACKLESCode: Select all
Kevin Zeitler 87.1 G 27 CIN 1087 UFA T.J. Lang 85.7 G 29 GB 791 UFA Larry Warford 82.0 G 26 DET 974 UFA Austin Pasztor 77.3 G 26 CLV 1020 UFA Patrick Omameh 77.1 G 27 JAX 454 UFA Brian Winters 77.1 G 26 NYJ 806 UFA Stefen Wisniewski 75.2 G 28 PHI 606 UFA Evan Mathis 74.9 G 35 ARZ 199 UFA Ryan Jensen 73.1 G 26 BLT 273 RFA Ted Larsen 72.3 G 30 CHI 581 UFA Oday Aboushi 71.9 G 26 HST 267 UFA Tim Lelito 70.5 G 28 NO 405 UFA T.J. Johnson 69.4 G 27 CIN 95 RFA Brian Schwenke 67.0 G 26 TEN 248 UFA Vladimir Ducasse 54.6 G 29 BLT 555 UFA Chris Scott 51.5 G 30 CAR 295 UFA Chris Chester 50.5 G 34 ATL 1041 UFA Chance Warmack 46.6 G 25 TEN 134 UFA Taylor Boggs 43.4 G 30 ARZ 99 UFA Jonotthan Harrison 41.8 G 26 IND 453 RFA Tyler Shatley 39.8 G 26 JAX 316 RFA Hugh Thornton N/A G 26 IND 0 UFA
Code: Select all
Andrew Whitworth 91.3 T 35 CIN 1064 UFA Ricky Wagner 84.5 T 27 BLT 926 UFA Ty Nsekhe 75.4 T 31 WAS 386 RFA Christopher Hubbard 72.8 T 26 PIT 326 RFA Cameron Fleming 71.9 T 24 NE 284 RFA Menelik Watson 70.0 T 28 OAK 255 UFA Riley Reiff 67.5 T 28 DET 888 UFA Marshall Newhouse 67.2 T 28 NYG 461 UFA Cornelius Lucas 67.2 T 26 DET 41 RFA Mike Remmers 66.1 T 28 CAR 1106 UFA Jake Long 63.9 T 32 MIN 209 UFA William Beatty 63.7 T 32 NYG 7 UFA Eric Winston 59.5 T 33 CIN 279 UFA Matt McCants 59.5 T 28 CHI 38 UFA Sam Young 53.2 T 30 MIA 146 UFA Tony Hills 50.5 T 32 NO 52 UFA Josh Wells 50.1 T 26 JAX 11 RFA James Hurst 49.0 T 25 BLT 305 RFA Tom Compton 47.6 T 28 ATL 69 UFA Ben Ijalana 47.6 T 28 NYJ 867 UFA Jordan Mills 44.2 T 26 BUF 1033 UFA Don Barclay 43.1 T 28 GB 144 UFA Gosder Cherilus 42.2 T 33 TB 219 UFA Mike Adams 40.8 T 27 CHI 93 UFA Andre Smith Jr. 39.3 T 30 MIN 182 UFA Garry Gilliam 38.1 T 26 SEA 812 RFA Matt Kalil 36.9 T 28 MIN 121 UFA Earl Watford 33.9 T 27 ARZ 788 UFA Bradley Sowell 33.4 T 28 SEA 628 UFA Sebastian Vollmer N/A T 33 NE 0 UFA Byron Bell N/A T 28 TEN 0 UFA Nick Becton N/A T 27 CHI 0 UFA David Quessenberry N/A T 27 HST 0 UFA
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Kalil is a failure relative to his draft position. Even when healthy outside of his rookie campaign most of his career he has been average at best. He has had injury problems most seasons he has played. Hindsight is 20/20, when we took him, he was a consensus best Tackle in the draft. He had all the goods and was not considered a reach for a #4 pick.Pondering Her Percy wrote: Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.
Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T. Scheme is going to be very important in who they add. If they are set on Sparano's power technique then they need to find guys that do that well. If all the guys are zone oriented then we should ask if Sparano is still the right guy to lead the bunch?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.mansquatch wrote:The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T.
I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.
What a mess...
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.
I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.
What a mess...
I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
Yeah it ain't pretty.
Boon was $26MM contract or something like that, so while the hit isn't small, it isn't monstrous either. The tackle position is a disaster right now. Really it is a breakdown on multiple fronts.
Their high draft picks both ended up as injury riddled husks. Sullivan got cut for a similar reason. Is this bad eval, bad luck, or bad strength and conditioning?
They have failed to achieve any hits at Tackle with late round picks
The coaching staff across at past two HC has failed to do a good enough job developing the talent they do have
I sincerely hope that everything the organization is doing with regards to OL is under the microscope. They are literally failing everywhere with regards to this position group.
Boon was $26MM contract or something like that, so while the hit isn't small, it isn't monstrous either. The tackle position is a disaster right now. Really it is a breakdown on multiple fronts.
Their high draft picks both ended up as injury riddled husks. Sullivan got cut for a similar reason. Is this bad eval, bad luck, or bad strength and conditioning?
They have failed to achieve any hits at Tackle with late round picks
The coaching staff across at past two HC has failed to do a good enough job developing the talent they do have
I sincerely hope that everything the organization is doing with regards to OL is under the microscope. They are literally failing everywhere with regards to this position group.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
I think that's one of several indications that the window probably isn't actually open yet.fiestavike wrote:Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".
I'll certainly be surprised if one of those first 3 picks isn't a defensive player.I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
See I look at Floyd like I've always looked at Rudy. When healthy, they are above average. But the key is.....when healthy. I wouldnt say Floyd is a bust. The word "bust" is so broadly used. Christian Ponder is a bust. He was given plenty of chances and proved he was terrible. Shariff Floyd is a good DT. He's showed that when he's been in there. He just cant stay healthy. That doesnt scream the word "bust" to me. I dont know. I guess I just look at it differently than somemansquatch wrote:They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.
I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.
What a mess...
I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.
That would give us a starting OL of:
LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner
That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.
The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.
It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
It's hard to imagine both Zeitler and Whitworth hitting free agency without the Bengals re-signing at least one of them and I find it even more difficult to imagine the Vikings signing 3 of the top OL free agents in one offseason.Pondering Her Percy wrote:One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.
I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.
That would give us a starting OL of:
LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner
That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.
The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.
It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
The Steelers signed David DeCastro (who was drafted just a few picks above Zeitler in 2012) to a 5 year, $50 million contract in 2016 so I imagine Zeitler and his agent will look for a similar deal. Even if the Vikes got him at $40 million for 4-5 years, investing $8-10 million a year in the RG position after signing Boone to a $27 million, 4 year contract and then signing 3 free agent tackles (Kalil, Whitworth and Wagner) seems unlikely, not to mention potentially cost-prohibitive.
I think there's a good chance Wagner will never hit free agency either. It's not a deep market for tackles so if he does, there would probably be competition for him which could drive his price up.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line
This is where scenario analysis comes into play IMO. The Vikings have bigger needs at T than at G. But competition will be stiff.
Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of
The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)
Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.
Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.
Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of
The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)
Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.
Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi