Draft Day Discussion

[Cliff]

I know this is post-draft and not draft day, but since it's slow and this thread is active I thought I'd post this here:

https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgradesteam.php

Someone did NOT like the Vikings draft. Like, at all...

What I've found is the same people who are judging the Vikings harshly for giving up lower round picks projected them to move up farther and give up even more. Like Walterfootball. Here's their mock;

I don’t often predict trades in my mock draft, but I’m going to make an exception in this instance because we know Minnesota is aiming to move up after acquiring pick No. 23. The Vikings can trade Nos. 11 and 23, as well as a 2025 first-round pick to the Cardinals for No. 4.

The Vikings are obviously moving up for a quarterback. They have nothing at the position, so I understand their desperation to make a move. Ideally, they’d go to No. 3 and land one of the three studs, but they might be limited in what they can do.

J.J. McCarthy is an accurate quarterback with a solid arm and mobility.

They understood their need to get a QB with three 1st round picks, but trading lower round picks and only swapping 1sts and they did poorly? They beat the crap out of your prediction and got one of the higher rated players in the draft.

They predicted Dallas Turner would slide to 21 due to medical concerns but their original prediction was them not even having a pick to get ANY player there.

It seems like people are looking at that "value chart" and not using common sense. This person probably would have given them a higher grade for giving up three 1sts to move to 4 for the player they got at 10 and saving lower round picks.

[CharVike]

I know this is post-draft and not draft day, but since it's slow and this thread is active I thought I'd post this here:

https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgradesteam.php

Someone did NOT like the Vikings draft. Like, at all...

2024 NFL Draft Accomplishments: Minnesota did not manage its resources very well in the 2024 NFL Draft.

They were then unwilling to move up more than one selection for J.J. McCarthy. That was at least correct because McCarthy is the same sort of caliber of prospect as Mac Jones

Charlie Campbell reported that Turner would fall because some teams flagged him medically, so Turner being available at No. 17 wasn’t a surprise for most teams. The Vikings, apparently, didn’t get the memo. When the dust settled, Minnesota had no second-day selections and only three picks in the entire 2025 NFL Draft: a first-rounder and two fifths.

OK, I realize I come at this as a fan of the Vikings, but this seems overly harsh. IIRC, Mac Jones was not a highly rated QB prospect. The fact he went in the 1st round where he did and when he did (15th to the Pats I believe) reflects more on a confluence of events than anything Jones demonstrated on the field or during the pre-draft process. I think a lot of people were surprised that Jones went where he did. I know some on this board really liked him and thought the Vikings should have tried to draft him in the 1st, but I don't think Jones is the same caliber of prospect as, say, Daniel Jones was coming out. I'd compare McCarthy more to D. Jones than M. Jones. There are definitely question marks, but McCarthy strikes me as a prospect with a higher ceiling than Mac Jones. I guess we'll find out.

I also find the speculation on the medical issues with Turner to be puzzling. First of all, every single defensive player fell in this last draft. I think the first defensive player taken was Latu at 15, and he most definitely had some medical red flags associated with him. Turner played his entire last season in college and was a full participant at the Combine. I don't know about his pro day but I imagine he checked out fine. So where this rumor about a medical issue came from is beyond me because it strikes me as completely unsupported by any evidence. Maybe Turner does have a medical issue, but to say the Vikings didn't get that memo?

Again, we'll all see. About the only part of this review I can agree with is the number of mid-round picks that were invested to move up for these two players. It does shift the burden of hitting on the higher picks forward and does add some question marks to the 2025 draft, but at the same time, most drafts only produce 1 or 2 impact players even for teams that pick in every round. Also, we've seen what happens when the GM trades higher picks for more lower rounders. They pick more players, sure, but what does it net the team? I guess that also depends on who they pick and a little good luck, but it hasn't really helped the Vikings over the last few years, at least.

Post-draft grades are always interesting. This one in particular struck me as way too speculative and way too harsh.

Jones was never considered to have much of a ceiling which is why he was picked at 15 and if the Pats didn't jump who knows how far down he would have fallen. They rolled the dice. JJM is a much better prospect. Jones only had one season and JJM 2 in college. JJM can avoid pressure while Jones is a statue. Even the reviews for Pat fans after on SI were all over the board. PFF had him rated as elite and TD Wire gave a C grade. That's a huge swing. He wasn't some lock pick like this years Caleb. That's No 1 vs 15.
https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/nf ... -mac-jones
That entire class Jones came with wasn't very good at all. Here they are Lawerance, Wilson, Lance, Fields, Jones. Lawerance is the best. He was the one guy worth taking out of 5. Jones was 2nd to Jamar Chase in rookie of the year award and then everything fell apart. I don't know how JJM will do. He's a hard worker and has all the physical skills. He's got the receiving core but not much from the ground game. Our OL can't hold up against the better defensive fronts. Plus he's a lite player. His weight goes from 201 to 219 on these reviews. I know he's not 230 like Maye. So can a 200 ILB guy take the hits? Standing in the pocket and getting creamed is a hard hit to take. Cousins ribs were all banged up every year. That takes a toll.
Your right about the defensive players all dropping. Turner was No 2 edge player picked. Verse and Robinson came after. It was his choice out of the 3. He should be a good player. Of course there will be some learning and strength increase needed. But that's most every rookie. One other thing the Pack taking Pratt in the 7th round pisses me off. I liked him. Plus a 7th rounder is nothing. He certainly could have competed for a backup role. Mullens is worthless and Hall is Hall. If the guy shows anything you have a great guy to deal at a position of high need. That was a great value pick.

[psjordan]

I know this is post-draft and not draft day, but since it's slow and this thread is active I thought I'd post this here:

They were then unwilling to move up more than one selection for J.J. McCarthy. That was at least correct because McCarthy is the same sort of caliber of prospect as Mac Jones

Some of the "professional analysis" of our trade to #10 for JJM has bordered on the absolutely inept, IMO. I know I probably cogitate over the Vikes transactions more than most "national NFL analysts", but for goodness sake if you are a "national" presence in the NFL analysis game it's your JOB to at least get things right, or interpret them with the most probability.

Your quote from the article above is just another example. "They were then UNWILLING to move up more than one selection" - really? A) How in the world would YOU know, and B) by all accounts they WERE willing, and C) a trade requires TWO complicit parties. Good golly, wording makes a difference if you do it for a living. So instead of getting credit for reading the tea leaves, we get pounded for NOT giving up both #1's plus more? WTF?

Other random examples:

Sean Payton "tricked" the Vikings into moving up one spot!

What? Even if that were remotely true, uh, why? Self proclaimed "Mr. Crafty" didn't trick our FO into anything. In fact I could state "Payton really wanted JJM, but to save face for Nix he proclaimed he tricked the Vikes". Just as high a probability, if not more. It'd be hilarious if it leaks in the future that DEN talked to the JETS about trading that pick.

What was MIN thinking moving up one spot - they knew the Jets would not take a QB! What a waste of resources!

I've heard this from radio pundits all week (I have a long commute). Holy cow it's called an insurance policy. With us needing a QB, I would have made that trade 10 times out of 10.

More than any recent draft, I'm really anxious to see the signs if it all works out, or not.

[VikingLord]

One other thing the Pack taking Pratt in the 7th round pisses me off. I liked him. Plus a 7th rounder is nothing. He certainly could have competed for a backup role. Mullens is worthless and Hall is Hall. If the guy shows anything you have a great guy to deal at a position of high need. That was a great value pick.

Not sure on Pratt. I mean, he fell for a reason. I guess he could turn into the next Brock Purdy, and sometimes QBs that fall in a draft do turn into really good players, but it seems like an injury to the established starter is required for them to show what they can do. I'm thinking of Brady getting his shot when Bledsoe went out with an injury and Purdy got his shot when Garappolo went down. These later round guys who end up being good have a lot of convincing to do to win playing time and I think that is a really hard thing to accomplish when the coaches are focused on getting the established starter ready. So that window for a young QB drafted late really only seems to open when Fate decides it should open, and then when it does open that young QB has that moment to shine and show he can do it or it closes again.

Hall had that moment last year against the Falcons. He actually looked pretty good to start and then he also got injured. After that, the window closed for him and now appears permanently closed, at least with the Vikings. If any young QB is going to get a look on the Vikings it is McCarthy.

In short, if Pratt is going to make an impact for the Packers it's likely Love would have to go out with an injury. Otherwise, he'll sit behind him until his rookie deal expires.

[VikingLord]

More than any recent draft, I'm really anxious to see the signs if it all works out, or not.

Great points.

I think if there is an objective criticism of this year's draft it is the effect shifting mid-round picks from both 2024 and 2025 will have on the Vikings depth going forward. Taking fewer rookies at all positions in a draft increases the importance of finding guys who can not only make the team over the next few years, but contribute in meaningful ways, especially with how prevalent injuries are in pro football and how impactful special teams can be on the outcome of games.

On the flip side of this is what we've all seen happen with the Vikings during most of the Spielman years and even KAM's first draft with the team where trading down for more mid-round picks was common. That era of the team was marked by mediocrity more than anything. The team had some star power, but overall just tread water and had very little post-season success. So maybe it is time to try something a bit different. Trade those lower round picks and try to find star power near the top of the draft.

Hard to say if the outcome will be any better, but it does seem like a team needs real star power to compete for a Superbowl. And to some degree it also feels like Fate has forced the Vikings' hand a bit with Kirk deciding to move on and then the Patriots not being willing to trade out of the 3rd spot for Maye. And then the Falcons taking Penix off the board too. Just seems like the chips fell where they had to this year and almost forced KAM to make the move he ended up making to draft McCarthy. I could just be seeing things, but sometimes when these things happen the way they happen there seems to be a greater reason behind it. I hope that is the case here.

As far as Turner goes, I just don't see the medical issue that supposedly led to his fall. It must be one of the best-kept secrets out there and didn't seem to impact his on-field play. Other than him weighing in at around 250, there just are no knocks on him that I can see. It almost seems like someone managed to start a rumor that caught fire, and I wonder who that could be? I mean, if you're a team drafting in the bottom half of the first round and you want a premiere edge defender to fall, it wouldn't be beyond reason to try to scare other teams off from that player so you have a legit shot at him. Most players who have objective health or behavior issues can't hide what those are, and I have yet to read anything indicating what Turner's medical issue actually is. All I can find is that "some teams red flagged him" on that basis.

[psjordan]

Read a bunch of interesting stuff today. In order of "voracity":

After taking Penix, ATL contacted Jets and wanted to get back to the #10 pick and take Laiatu. Jets have it recorded actually, so it would appear legit. I don't know what the unwritten protocol is when calling a team for their pick - the Jets may have simply said to any caller "we are fielding calls for #10" and not given out the other team(s) - in which case KAM had to do what he did. That seems most likely, as opposed to "we are fielding calls from ATL". Who knows, but it bolsters my opinion that KAM did the right thing. No matter that ATL would not have taken a QB - I doubt we knew it was ATL calling to get back into the 1st.

KOC told Kirk (pre-Kirk-leaving-decision) that we were very very likely to draft a QB, and that was the final nail for Kirk to feel he was OUT.

One of the things that impressed the Vikes group that went and met with JJM is that they asked (each of) the recruits to set up a lunch for the entire group. JJM picked a popular, busy place in Ann Arbor and the way he handled it all when there REALLY made an impression on the Vikes staff. Sometimes you never know what your potential boss picks up on.

Supposedly the Vikes liked JJM just a hair above Penix, but would have been happy with either. Vikes "called the Giants bluff" about them wanting to take a QB at six and when the Giants went WR, KAM and crew were elated. Then NOBODY saw the Penix pick coming, which amped up the motivation to get JJM.

Sean Payton told some interviewer that he was "all over" Mahomes as a draft pick back in the day, and was ready to move up to pick him. Even told Brees that is what he was going to do. Not sure how Mr. Crafty lost out on that one, but he sure has a high opinion of himself.

There is talk (more like speculation) that some prelim talks have already been broached about Kirk being traded after the 2024 season (in theory he'd waive his no-trade with the threat of sitting behind Penix in 2025). I assume this is simply talk from analysts, and of course it all depends on what happens during the season. Popular destination was the Raiders.

The above is what I read today. Here is my opinion:
When the entire picture to date is taken into consideration, I think in the future we will all feel pretty lucky that Kirk moved on and we ended up where we ended up.

[VikingLord]

OK, I admit I haven't had a chance to read this article in its entirety as it is quite long and detailed, but this is a fantastic analysis of the value proposition of draft day trades:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/400 ... ers-losers

A few items of note from that article (emphasis mine):

When should teams trade up?

Let's try to come up with a few best practices for teams interested in trading up. When does making a move up the board make sense?

Trading up for a quarterback. In his draft value chart, Ben Baldwin notes there should be a different trade chart for quarterbacks than for all other positions, given the potential upside of landing a passer and how that value dwarfs virtually every other position.

Attempting to land a player at a premium position who can provide outsized value... best chance of landing a standout player who provides significant surplus value on a typical rookie deal is by attempting to acquire players who play the most valuable positions in football. Outside of quarterback, that includes wide receivers, offensive tackles and pass-rushers

The author analyzes the Vikings' trades in particular. While he has no issue with the trade up for McCarthy, he was less enthusiastic about the deal to land Turner, writing:

Although I'm sure Minnesota wasn't expecting the edge rusher to be available at No. 17, the price it had to pay to jump from No. 42 to No. 23 and then from No. 23 to No. 17 became extravagant .

In the end, the Vikings sent their second-, fifth- and sixth-round picks in 2024 and their second-, third- and fourth-round picks in 2025 to add Turner. By the Stuart chart, this deal is a nightmare. They paid more than double what the No. 17 pick typically returns. They gave up something close to the equivalent of the No. 1 pick in a typical draft to land Turner by the Stuart chart.

He finishes with this observation:

Even if McCarthy and Turner pan out, it's tough to believe Minnesota is going to build a great team around them

Like I said, there is a LOT more at the article link and it is a very thorough analysis of draft day trades in general, but after reading just the parts I did I have to admit I'm a little less enthused by the moves KAM made this year, especially that final observation. Taking from Peter to pay Paul has never really worked for this team, nor has it allowed the team to overcome the shortcomings that such deals inevitably leave Peter with the bill to pay. It might just be true that the moves up on draft day are just the move to extend Cousins for another two years in a different form - in effect, overpaying for something that underperforms on net.

As the author implies - KAM simply has to hit on these picks.

[psjordan]

In the end, the Vikings sent their second-, fifth- and sixth-round picks in 2024 and their second-, third- and fourth-round picks in 2025 to add Turner.

Every time I read one of these it seems these guys NEVER get the trades correct when analyzing. He missed the 7th rd pick we received from HOU and used on LDR, and also didn't mention the 5th we traded this year to JAX was our second 5th (not pick #11 in the round, but rather pick #32 in the round).

So in "acquiring" Turner, we received:
Dallas Turner
Levi Drake Rodriguez
For
Our #2 rd this year (Kamari Lassiter, CB to HOU)
Our second #5 rd this year (Keilan Robinson, RB to JAX)
Our #6 rd this year (Jamal Hill, LB to HOU)
Our #2 rd in 2025 (HOU)
Our #3 rd in 2025 (JAX)
Our #4 rd in 2025 (JAX)

When you "discount" the 2025 picks by one round, this year's value was 3/4/5 and not 2/3/4.

We can wax on all day long about the value of 5th and 6th rounders and also future picks, but RIGHT NOW the names listed above don't seem out of line. In fact right now I'd say we're killing it on this trade. Who knows what Turner and LDR bring to the table this year, making it well worth the future picks? Maybe my sunglasses are purple but I see this as a potential huge win for us.

As the author implies - KAM simply has to hit on these picks.

No doubt.

[VikingsVictorious]

I know this is post-draft and not draft day, but since it's slow and this thread is active I thought I'd post this here:

https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgradesteam.php

Someone did NOT like the Vikings draft. Like, at all...

What I've found is the same people who are judging the Vikings harshly for giving up lower round picks projected them to move up farther and give up even more. Like Walterfootball. Here's their mock;

I don’t often predict trades in my mock draft, but I’m going to make an exception in this instance because we know Minnesota is aiming to move up after acquiring pick No. 23. The Vikings can trade Nos. 11 and 23, as well as a 2025 first-round pick to the Cardinals for No. 4.

The Vikings are obviously moving up for a quarterback. They have nothing at the position, so I understand their desperation to make a move. Ideally, they’d go to No. 3 and land one of the three studs, but they might be limited in what they can do.

J.J. McCarthy is an accurate quarterback with a solid arm and mobility.

They understood their need to get a QB with three 1st round picks, but trading lower round picks and only swapping 1sts and they did poorly? They beat the crap out of your prediction and got one of the higher rated players in the draft.

They predicted Dallas Turner would slide to 21 due to medical concerns but their original prediction was them not even having a pick to get ANY player there.

It seems like people are looking at that "value chart" and not using common sense. This person probably would have given them a higher grade for giving up three 1sts to move to 4 for the player they got at 10 and saving lower round picks.

Absolutely. They said giving up 3 FRPs to get McCarthy was cool, but giving up a 4 and a 5th for 6 swap was horrible. You can't make this stuff up. Walter Football has lost all credibility.

[VikingsVictorious]

I know this is post-draft and not draft day, but since it's slow and this thread is active I thought I'd post this here:

https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgradesteam.php

Someone did NOT like the Vikings draft. Like, at all...







OK, I realize I come at this as a fan of the Vikings, but this seems overly harsh. IIRC, Mac Jones was not a highly rated QB prospect. The fact he went in the 1st round where he did and when he did (15th to the Pats I believe) reflects more on a confluence of events than anything Jones demonstrated on the field or during the pre-draft process. I think a lot of people were surprised that Jones went where he did. I know some on this board really liked him and thought the Vikings should have tried to draft him in the 1st, but I don't think Jones is the same caliber of prospect as, say, Daniel Jones was coming out. I'd compare McCarthy more to D. Jones than M. Jones. There are definitely question marks, but McCarthy strikes me as a prospect with a higher ceiling than Mac Jones. I guess we'll find out.

I also find the speculation on the medical issues with Turner to be puzzling. First of all, every single defensive player fell in this last draft. I think the first defensive player taken was Latu at 15, and he most definitely had some medical red flags associated with him. Turner played his entire last season in college and was a full participant at the Combine. I don't know about his pro day but I imagine he checked out fine. So where this rumor about a medical issue came from is beyond me because it strikes me as completely unsupported by any evidence. Maybe Turner does have a medical issue, but to say the Vikings didn't get that memo?

Again, we'll all see. About the only part of this review I can agree with is the number of mid-round picks that were invested to move up for these two players. It does shift the burden of hitting on the higher picks forward and does add some question marks to the 2025 draft, but at the same time, most drafts only produce 1 or 2 impact players even for teams that pick in every round. Also, we've seen what happens when the GM trades higher picks for more lower rounders. They pick more players, sure, but what does it net the team? I guess that also depends on who they pick and a little good luck, but it hasn't really helped the Vikings over the last few years, at least.

Post-draft grades are always interesting. This one in particular struck me as way too speculative and way too harsh.

Jones was never considered to have much of a ceiling which is why he was picked at 15 and if the Pats didn't jump who knows how far down he would have fallen. They rolled the dice. JJM is a much better prospect. Jones only had one season and JJM 2 in college. JJM can avoid pressure while Jones is a statue. Even the reviews for Pat fans after on SI were all over the board. PFF had him rated as elite and TD Wire gave a C grade. That's a huge swing. He wasn't some lock pick like this years Caleb. That's No 1 vs 15.
https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/nf ... -mac-jones
That entire class Jones came with wasn't very good at all. Here they are Lawerance, Wilson, Lance, Fields, Jones. Lawerance is the best. He was the one guy worth taking out of 5. Jones was 2nd to Jamar Chase in rookie of the year award and then everything fell apart. I don't know how JJM will do. He's a hard worker and has all the physical skills. He's got the receiving core but not much from the ground game. Our OL can't hold up against the better defensive fronts. Plus he's a lite player. His weight goes from 201 to 219 on these reviews. I know he's not 230 like Maye. So can a 200 ILB guy take the hits? Standing in the pocket and getting creamed is a hard hit to take. Cousins ribs were all banged up every year. That takes a toll.
Your right about the defensive players all dropping. Turner was No 2 edge player picked. Verse and Robinson came after. It was his choice out of the 3. He should be a good player. Of course there will be some learning and strength increase needed. But that's most every rookie. One other thing the Pack taking Pratt in the 7th round pisses me off. I liked him. Plus a 7th rounder is nothing. He certainly could have competed for a backup role. Mullens is worthless and Hall is Hall. If the guy shows anything you have a great guy to deal at a position of high need. That was a great value pick.

I can't believe Pratt went to the Puke in the 7th round. It pisses me off also.

[CharVike]

Jones was never considered to have much of a ceiling which is why he was picked at 15 and if the Pats didn't jump who knows how far down he would have fallen. They rolled the dice. JJM is a much better prospect. Jones only had one season and JJM 2 in college. JJM can avoid pressure while Jones is a statue. Even the reviews for Pat fans after on SI were all over the board. PFF had him rated as elite and TD Wire gave a C grade. That's a huge swing. He wasn't some lock pick like this years Caleb. That's No 1 vs 15.
https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/nf ... -mac-jones
That entire class Jones came with wasn't very good at all. Here they are Lawerance, Wilson, Lance, Fields, Jones. Lawerance is the best. He was the one guy worth taking out of 5. Jones was 2nd to Jamar Chase in rookie of the year award and then everything fell apart. I don't know how JJM will do. He's a hard worker and has all the physical skills. He's got the receiving core but not much from the ground game. Our OL can't hold up against the better defensive fronts. Plus he's a lite player. His weight goes from 201 to 219 on these reviews. I know he's not 230 like Maye. So can a 200 ILB guy take the hits? Standing in the pocket and getting creamed is a hard hit to take. Cousins ribs were all banged up every year. That takes a toll.
Your right about the defensive players all dropping. Turner was No 2 edge player picked. Verse and Robinson came after. It was his choice out of the 3. He should be a good player. Of course there will be some learning and strength increase needed. But that's most every rookie. One other thing the Pack taking Pratt in the 7th round pisses me off. I liked him. Plus a 7th rounder is nothing. He certainly could have competed for a backup role. Mullens is worthless and Hall is Hall. If the guy shows anything you have a great guy to deal at a position of high need. That was a great value pick.

I can't believe Pratt went to the Puke in the 7th round. It pisses me off also.

More than likely he won't amount to anything. But there is always an outside chance that he can become a backup and eventual trade bait. We did it with Brad Johnson. Late pick who eventually became a starter and then was dealt for a 1st rounder. Pratt started for 4 years and threw alot of passes which is a nice run. The Packer HC said he was surprised he was still on the board. It's not like we have a stacked QB room. We have one hopeful who hasn't taken a snap yet and then an empty hole. The hole needs to be filled.

[VikingLord]

I can't believe Pratt went to the Puke in the 7th round. It pisses me off also.

Odds of Pratt ever seeing the field in a Packer jersey are very poor. It would only happen if Love gets hurt.

Odds of Pratt turning into a competent QB if he does see the field are also very poor. 7th round QBs pan out very rarely. In a league desperate for QBs there is a good reason a guy like Pratt dropped.

[cogitator]

Absolutely. They said giving up 3 FRPs to get McCarthy was cool, but giving up a 4 and a 5th for 6 swap was horrible. You can't make this stuff up. Walter Football has lost all credibility.

I think that's based on the importance of the qb position, you can trade off more picks to get the right qb, but not so much for a position player. Barnwell said about the same thing in that long column someone posted here (thanks for that btw).

[VikingsVictorious]

I can't believe Pratt went to the Puke in the 7th round. It pisses me off also.

Odds of Pratt ever seeing the field in a Packer jersey are very poor. It would only happen if Love gets hurt.

Odds of Pratt turning into a competent QB if he does see the field are also very poor. 7th round QBs pan out very rarely. In a league desperate for QBs there is a good reason a guy like Pratt dropped.

Of course odds are that nothing ever comes of him, but he's too good a QB prospect to go in the 7th round and of course it's the Puke that get him.

[CharVike]

I can't believe Pratt went to the Puke in the 7th round. It pisses me off also.

Odds of Pratt ever seeing the field in a Packer jersey are very poor. It would only happen if Love gets hurt.

Odds of Pratt turning into a competent QB if he does see the field are also very poor. 7th round QBs pan out very rarely. In a league desperate for QBs there is a good reason a guy like Pratt dropped.

Your correct he will never see the field for the Pack unless something happens. He might not even make the team. There's nothing special about his arm. Most of his projections were 5th round which means forget it. His pro comparison I saw is Copper Rush. Rush has won some games and even beat us. Without seeing the guy play I'd take him over duck throwing Mullens. The big 6 from round 1 I think if 2 of them get a second contract with the team that drafted them will be about right. The odds aren't good for them either. Especially if a team is looking for an immediate savior and the team sucks. See Carolina from last year.