Cook or Mattison?

[Husker Vike]

Great posts Kapp, the new administration pretty much had to play with the hand that was dealt to them in year one. Changing to a 3-4 defense takes personnel changes that will take the off season to address, in my opinion we need to improve speed at the inside linebackers, we suffer in coverage and that also impacts the safety play.

[VikingsVictorious]

I disagree with you right from your first stance. Cook does not pitter patter his feet at the line. He's an excellent short yardage runner. If we can get good value for Cook sure trade him.

I guess we're watching two different Dalvin Cook's then

I guess we are. How many of Cooks was it 20 TDs a couple of season's ago from short yardage. He has no problem with short yardage plays.

[VikingsVictorious]

I feel that there is a common feeling among most. It is hard to say 2% when someone else feels 4% should be designated to RB room. In the scheme of $200million, 4-8 million is not a lot, but it can be very significant. If allowing up to $8 mil, you can have a #1 type RB with rookie contract players. If working with the $4m number, then you will have a committee type of backfield.
For example, CJ Ham does well for us, but his salary is $3mil. Is he overpaid? Probably.
I understand the idea of only committing specific % of salary cap to positions, but I do feel it depends on the makeup of your team and what type of offense you are trying to run

That's my point. Kapp is one of my fave posters here and a real smart guy, but this standing firm on 2% no matter what is just IMO way off base.

[VikingsVictorious]

I feel that there is a common feeling among most. It is hard to say 2% when someone else feels 4% should be designated to RB room. In the scheme of $200million, 4-8 million is not a lot, but it can be very significant. If allowing up to $8 mil, you can have a #1 type RB with rookie contract players. If working with the $4m number, then you will have a committee type of backfield.
For example, CJ Ham does well for us, but his salary is $3mil. Is he overpaid? Probably.
I understand the idea of only committing specific % of salary cap to positions, but I do feel it depends on the makeup of your team and what type of offense you are trying to run

Just to be clear, I didn't say 2% for the running back room. I said 2% for any one running back.

That said, the The Minnesota Vikings have the 6th-highest RB payroll in the NFL at more than $16 million. That's 8% of the total cap. Yet they run the ball on just 35.9% of their plays, third-lowest rate in the NFL. It makes no sense. Do we honestly believe Kevin O'Connell will suddenly become a coach with a run-heavy offense?

As for Ham, I'd say he is unfortunately overpaid. Once again, I base that on KOC's offense. The Vikings run 11 personnel more than any team in the league. Ham finished with 169 total snaps, less than 10 per game.

Your point is a good one. The Vikings should pay the running back room relative to the importance of running backs in the total scheme of things.

Cook at 8 Million and Ham at 2 Million would be about right.

[VikingsVictorious]

I will once again go on record that I think your 4M max for Cook is every bit as out of whack as his $14.1 Million contract for next year. I can leave the names out and I still don't see that your right. I see that you're wrong. If you would place a more reasonable number like $8M I wouldn't find your stance laughable, but at $4M that's how I see it.

I figured you'd come out of the woodwork on this sooner or later.

Not that I feel I have to prove anything to you, since I've proven this point over and over with stats and numbers. But I'm a decent guy, so I'll go ahead and share some info from another post, even though I'm fairly certain you'll ignore it. Don't care. You're just as wrong now as you were earlier. Here are even more reasons why.

The Minnesota Vikings run the ball 35.9% of the time, third lowest-rate in the NFL. Yet they have the 6th-highest running back payroll in the NFL at $16 million, which is TWICE the league average. Dalvin Cook collects by far the biggest share of that $16 million, and you think he's worth it because he's a threat to take it to the house. But the fact is that he has three of those explosive plays ALL SEASON. Yes, they were key to victories, but even if you take away those three plays and turn those wins into losses, the Vikings still win the division and get the #3 seed. If the Vikings are going to be a passing team under KOC, then why in the world should they allocate so much money to running backs?

But wait. It gets better.

They're also paying CJ Ham $3 million — and he's been on the field for all of 169 snaps, less than 10 per game. I love the Hammer, but that's nonsense.

Again, the league average for a running back room is $8 million. So my figure of $4 million to a single running back is anything but laughable. In fact, it's perfectly in line.

Finally, do you know who the 4 teams who pay the most in RB salary are? Green Bay, Tennessee, New Orleans and Cleveland. Four teams watching the playoffs on TV. Other teams who pay RBs more than league average include Denver, Arizona, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay (in the playoffs with an 8-9 record). I rest my case.

All this points back to the Zimmer/Spielman era. Zimmer emphasized defense and the running game, even though his defense stunk and the Vikings found themselves passing more than he ever wanted. He hung on to aging veterans on defense and paid his running backs a mint. Kwesi and KOC inherited a mess, but they're smart guys. So you can count on them getting rid of most or all of the bad contracts. Mark it down ... Dalvin Cook will be one of them.

I'll be sure to bring this post up when it happens.

You have proven NOTHING. Cook is Cook. What is paid to other RBs has nothing to do with what should be paid to him. 4M for a back of his talent is laughable. Did I ever remark about what Ham was getting paid before today. I think 2M isn't out of line, but I would be OK if they just cut him. 14.1 Million for Cook next year is a bad contract. Did I ever say it wasn't? Search the entire history of this thread for where I said 14.1 Million for Cook in 23 was a good contract. We will continue to have a huge disagreement as long as you take your FIRM Stance that Cook should not be paid 1 penny more than 4Million.

[VikingsVictorious]

After careful consideration, I have amended my “most I’d pay a running back” position.

Here’s where I’ve landed. I would not allocate more than 4% of the salary cap to my RUNNING BACK ROOM. With a $200 million cap, that’s $8 million total.

Now, that necessarily places limitations on how much you pay one guy. If you keep 4 running backs, and each of them must make at least the league minimum of $720,000, then that means the most you can pay one guy is $5.8 million. If you keep 3 running backs (I wouldn’t) then you could pay $6.5 million to a single guy.

But … if you roster a guy like CJ Ham at $3 million, then only about $3.6 million would be available to the highest-paid guy.

Why do I fall on 4%? Because that is league average. The point being, I would not allocate more than league average to a non-premium position like running back.

That’s my position. Obviously if you take over a franchise that is already committed to $11 million for its top running back, than it doesn’t work. But it’s what I would work toward if I were a GM.

Anyone agree?

You're still wrong for having the Firm Stance of no more than 8Million total. What if you have the best RB in the history of the NFL? Somebody who's twice as good as anybody who has ever played before? However, I give you credit for finally getting off your nonsensical 4Million max Firm Stance. Ham is clearly overpaid this year for what he brings to the table.

[VikingsVictorious]

Yep Kapp, you are spot on.
Kwesi has to make the tough and probably unpopular decisions on Thielen, Harrison, and Smith. I am expecting an extension with Cousins which also saves $23 mil.
Just needs to happen. I can see them also giving Cook an extension and lowering his cap number significantly. He still has some gas in the tank.

We are not going to get Cook at Kapp's 4M per year #. That I can guarantee you.

[VikingsVictorious]

I like Cook's 6-31 first quarter. I hope he ends up with 24 for 124 and a TD or 2.

[J. Kapp 11]

After careful consideration, I have amended my “most I’d pay a running back” position.

Here’s where I’ve landed. I would not allocate more than 4% of the salary cap to my RUNNING BACK ROOM. With a $200 million cap, that’s $8 million total.

Now, that necessarily places limitations on how much you pay one guy. If you keep 4 running backs, and each of them must make at least the league minimum of $720,000, then that means the most you can pay one guy is $5.8 million. If you keep 3 running backs (I wouldn’t) then you could pay $6.5 million to a single guy.

But … if you roster a guy like CJ Ham at $3 million, then only about $3.6 million would be available to the highest-paid guy.

Why do I fall on 4%? Because that is league average. The point being, I would not allocate more than league average to a non-premium position like running back.

That’s my position. Obviously if you take over a franchise that is already committed to $11 million for its top running back, than it doesn’t work. But it’s what I would work toward if I were a GM.

Anyone agree?

You're still wrong for having the Firm Stance of no more than 8Million total. What if you have the best RB in the history of the NFL? Somebody who's twice as good as anybody who has ever played before? However, I give you credit for finally getting off your nonsensical 4Million max Firm Stance. Ham is clearly overpaid this year for what he brings to the table.

Would you PLEASE stop being such a dick?

I'm giving you a basis for my belief. That's not nonsensical. You've given nothing but your opinion.

And again, mark my words ... things are about to change. Kwesi and KOC gave the Wilfs their "run it back" year. Now it's time to build something the right way. And paying a damn running back huge bank is NOT the way to do it. I don't care if he's a cross between Derrick Henry, Tony Dorsett and Marshall Faulk. The modern NFL is not set up for dominant running backs. The fact that you can't see that is an indictment of YOU, not me. The Vikings paid $15 million to Dalvin Cook and CJ Ham. THAT. IS. INSANE.

You think you win the argument because you name call and insult? Come up with a stat or a basis for your opinion, or don't talk to me. I'm sick of your sh*t.

[J. Kapp 11]

I guess we're watching two different Dalvin Cook's then

I guess we are. How many of Cooks was it 20 TDs a couple of season's ago from short yardage. He has no problem with short yardage plays.

A couple of seasons ago, Dalvin Cook had a $4.6 million cap hit. He was actually worth what they paid him. He's not now. At a $12 million cap hit, Dalvin Cook had his lowest production since his second year, when he was coming off the ACL. He was LAST IN THE NFL — out of all running backs with at least 130 touches — in total yards above expected at MINUS 200. Last. Did you get that? Last.

The guy you think is Superman has pretty much turned back into Clark Kent. And at 28 years old, he ain't gonna be wearing the cape anymore.

[VikingsVictorious]

You're still wrong for having the Firm Stance of no more than 8Million total. What if you have the best RB in the history of the NFL? Somebody who's twice as good as anybody who has ever played before? However, I give you credit for finally getting off your nonsensical 4Million max Firm Stance. Ham is clearly overpaid this year for what he brings to the table.

Would you PLEASE stop being such a dick?

I'm giving you a basis for my belief. That's not nonsensical. You've given nothing but your opinion.

And again, mark my words ... things are about to change. Kwesi and KOC gave the Wilfs their "run it back" year. Now it's time to build something the right way. And paying a damn running back huge bank is NOT the way to do it. I don't care if he's a cross between Derrick Henry, Tony Dorsett and Marshall Faulk. The modern NFL is not set up for dominant running backs. The fact that you can't see that is an indictment of YOU, not me. The Vikings paid $15 million to Dalvin Cook and CJ Ham. THAT. IS. INSANE.

You think you win the argument because you name call and insult? Come up with a stat or a basis for your opinion, or don't talk to me. I'm sick of your sh*t.

Sorry Kapp it's your sh*t I'm sick of. I'm not name calling or insulting at all. I think there are about 25 teams in the NFL who would be happy to pay Cook 8 million a year. I only win an argument when I learn something new in the argument. I'm not going to learn something new in this argument. I think your stance that he should get no more than 4 is laughable and I won't let those statements go unchallenged. I grant you that 15 Million to Cook and Ham was too much, but I NEVER made an argument that it wasn't. You keep trying to Straw Man me and present me as making arguments I never have.

By the way if the Vikings end up moving on from Cook next season it will not be because he's not a good RB, but it will be cap considerations. I'd miss him, but I'd have no problem with us moving on if he's going to cost us too much. If we can keep him for 2 or 3 more years at 4Million and 1 dollars a year I'm good with that also.

[VikingsVictorious]

I guess we are. How many of Cooks was it 20 TDs a couple of season's ago from short yardage. He has no problem with short yardage plays.

A couple of seasons ago, Dalvin Cook had a $4.6 million cap hit. He was actually worth what they paid him. He's not now. At a $12 million cap hit, Dalvin Cook had his lowest production since his second year, when he was coming off the ACL. He was LAST IN THE NFL — out of all running backs with at least 130 touches — in total yards above expected at MINUS 200. Last. Did you get that? Last.

The guy you think is Superman has pretty much turned back into Clark Kent. And at 28 years old, he ain't gonna be wearing the cape anymore.

I watched Dalvin play this year and I was very glad we had him (while acknowledging he was a bit overpaid) despite you finding a stat he was last in. Dalvin Cook is a very good RB.

[Maelstrom88]

Can I go with neither? Give me a 3rd or 4th rounder.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I guess we're watching two different Dalvin Cook's then

I guess we are. How many of Cooks was it 20 TDs a couple of season's ago from short yardage. He has no problem with short yardage plays.

The problem is, this isn’t “a couple of seasons ago” anymore

[JJBreaksRecords]

Cook isnt that good anymore. He is weak, easy to take down. And he has lost a step (or 2). I dont know what the Vikings could even do with him, and his existing contract. I dont like the idea of Mattison either. Our Oline is so weak. I really hope this time they blow everything up. Im done with competitive rebuilds and our RBs. Hoping Chandler can pick up the offense cause we will need him if they do get rid of Cook somehow.