Next OC for the Vikings?

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Next OC for the Vikings? who do you want, not who do you think.

Klint Kubiak
10
71%
Anthony Lynn
0
No votes
Hue Jackson
1
7%
Rick Dennison
0
No votes
Other
3
21%
 
Total votes: 14

Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:42 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:52 am
Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:09 pm


VikingLord you are 150% correct on the action of betting ones house NOT being a good idea. I mean the Wilfs have done it with Cousins to take us to the promised land for the past 3 years now and we see how that worked out. A true cautionary tale!
I don't agree that the Wilfs bet the house with Cousins' contract.

There are two "controversial" things about Cousins and his Vikings contract(s) since he arrived:

- The amount he's getting paid. This is controversial primarily because not everyone agrees he's a franchise QB or consistently plays at a level that merits what he's being paid.
- The fact his contract is guaranteed. As far as I know, no other starting QB in the NFL has a fully guaranteed contract. For that matter, I'm not aware of any other player that has one either. However, it's important to note that Cousins is not the only player who has guaranteed money in his contract. There are plenty of other players with guarantees - it's just that most of them get those guarantees in the form of signing bonuses up-front.

On the first point, Cousin's contract is not out of line compared to other top QBs in the league. If you don't agree he's a top QB, then he's being paid too much. If you think he's a top QB, then this is pretty much par for the course around the league.

On the second point, this is only an issue because it makes Cousins harder to part with in the event the Vikings wanted to change direction at QB. With that said, it also makes it harder for Cousins to get out too. This is an overlooked part of the deal and likely was what differentiated the Vikings to Cousins when Cousins was in the FA market. You have to remember that prior to joining Minnesota Cousins' original team (formerly known as the Redskins) had him on perpetual franchise status. They wouldn't commit to him longer term, but at the same time they wouldn't let him test FA either. So the way I see it, when Cousins finally did hit FA he wanted more of a commitment from whatever team he signed with. As noted, this locks in *both* sides as almost no other team is going to take on more than the final year of a large guaranteed contract in a trade situation.

It's a commitment more than betting the house, and while the final years of the extension he signed are larger, it's reasonable to believe both sides indexed those amounts to what they expected the salary cap to be in those future years. Big numbers, yes, but in context, not as cap-killing or team flexibility killing as they would appear to be at first.

Now, for context, the trade for Herschel Walker was betting the house.

What it would cost Spielman to move on from Cousins and trade for Deshaun Watson would be betting the house as well.

The investment in Cousins is not close to either by comparison.
Excellent post VL!

Here is my thing too, everyone wants to complain about the contract and year after year I continue to say the same thing that this is the QB market. And so many complain about how he's the 5th, 6th, 7th or whatever he is, highest paid QB in the NFL. Here is my thing and it's a fairly easy question for anyone to answer.....

Name me 1-2 QBs (that are NOT on a rookie deal and not a 43 year old Tom Brady) that are making LESS than Kirk Cousins but deserve MORE than Cousins does? When you look into it, you'll be surprised. There are very little if any. The initial contract is always what's alarming because it resets the market. Look at guys like Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford and Derek Carr. All reset the market and I wouldnt say any of those 3 are better than Cousins is. And you cant even look at Cousins contract out of a possible 32 QBs because a good quarter to third of the leagues QBs are still on rookie contract.

Point is, I think it's always been overblown. It hasnt restricted this team in any way via draft or free agency wise.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Cousins will make 150 million from 2018-2022. During that time Aaron Rodgers will make 149 million and Russel Wilson will make 150 million and even the most ardent Cousins fan will not make the argument that Cousins adds close to the value Rodgers and Wilson do with a straight face.
In 2020, Russell Wilson threw 40 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.1.

In 2020, Kirk Cousins threw 35 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.0.

In addition to that, Wilson threw for fewer total yards with a lower YPA. He took 47 sacks as compared to Cousins 39.

Let's zoom back a bit and look at the total offense for the two teams for which these two QBs play.

Wilson's Seahawks finished 17th in total offense compared to Cousins' Vikings at 4th. Even if one looks only at passing yards per game, Cousins' Vikings finished 14th as compared to Wilson's Seahawks at 16th.

And you state with a straight face that only the most ardent Cousins fan could possibly argue that Cousins comes close to adding the value to his team that Wilson does?

I admire your certainty about the relative value of the two players to their respective organizations and in terms of their overall league-wide value. I'm sure there are multiple other stats and metrics that show Cousins isn't near Wilson. You can point to their respective careers as well.

But it's just not that clear-cut.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
If they had known they were going to get similar value out of their QB as the Vikings have gotten out of Kirk, they would have never inked the deal in the first place.
The Vikings knew what they were getting out of Cousins before they extended him, so what you're saying here is essentially that Zimmer and Spielman are either completely incompetent and extended Cousins despite him not providing value corresponding to his pay level, or the two guys who have the most riding on the outcome of the decision to extend Cousins did so despite knowing that he wouldn't provide it.

Neither makes a lot of sense to me. Spielman and Zimmer both have all the same data and metrics and eyeballs as you or any layman. How do you explain how those two arrive at a different conclusion than you when they have actual skin in the game?
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
What is this now? How does the fully guaranteed part of the contract make it harder for the player to hit FAs? It does in fact make it easier, since the contract is shorter and needs to be reupped more frequently.
Get out means demanding a trade or threatening a holdout ala what is happening down in Houston with Watson apparently. It doesn't affect Cousins ability to become a free agent when his contract ends.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Cousins contract is arguably the most player friendly contract in the history of the NFL, and it is exactly what he wants it to be. He didn't sign with Washington because they refused to give him the deal the Vikings' did. He wanted a shorter, fully guaranteed contract, so he could bend the team over the barrel yet again in 3 years, and Washington didn't think he was worth that. They were right.
Contracts involve two sides. You make it sound like Cousins got everything he wanted and the Vikings got nothing.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
It is betting the house in the same way Walker was betting the house. Unless Cousins takes a huge step forward, his contract will have the same impact that Walker trade did. Not keep the team out of the playoffs over the next few seasons necessarily, but keep them from truly competing for a SB.
The same impact that the Walker trade had?

The same impact losing multiple high draft round picks over multiple years did?
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Giving up 3 1st round picks for Watson is not betting the house. It is giving up a chance to draft the next Bradbury, Hughes, and Gladney for a clear upgrade at QB. How is that betting the house?
Yeah, it is giving up multiple best chances at finding impact players in the draft. That some of those swings in the draft pay off less than others, don't pay off immediately or don't pay off at all doesn't make the swings less important to the overall success of the team.

I think your real issue is with Spielman, not Cousins.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Cousins will make 150 million from 2018-2022. During that time Aaron Rodgers will make 149 million and Russel Wilson will make 150 million and even the most ardent Cousins fan will not make the argument that Cousins adds close to the value Rodgers and Wilson do with a straight face.
In 2020, Russell Wilson threw 40 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.1.

In 2020, Kirk Cousins threw 35 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.0.

In addition to that, Wilson threw for fewer total yards with a lower YPA. He took 47 sacks as compared to Cousins 39.

Let's zoom back a bit and look at the total offense for the two teams for which these two QBs play.

Wilson's Seahawks finished 17th in total offense compared to Cousins' Vikings at 4th. Even if one looks only at passing yards per game, Cousins' Vikings finished 14th as compared to Wilson's Seahawks at 16th.

And you state with a straight face that only the most ardent Cousins fan could possibly argue that Cousins comes close to adding the value to his team that Wilson does?

I admire your certainty about the relative value of the two players to their respective organizations and in terms of their overall league-wide value. I'm sure there are multiple other stats and metrics that show Cousins isn't near Wilson. You can point to their respective careers as well.

But it's just not that clear-cut.
:shock:
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
If they had known they were going to get similar value out of their QB as the Vikings have gotten out of Kirk, they would have never inked the deal in the first place.

The Vikings knew what they were getting out of Cousins before they extended him, so what you're saying here is essentially that Zimmer and Spielman are either completely incompetent and extended Cousins despite him not providing value corresponding to his pay level, or the two guys who have the most riding on the outcome of the decision to extend Cousins did so despite knowing that he wouldn't provide it.
When your job is riding on a player working out, like Rick's and by extension Zimmer's was, you do everything you can to make that player work. That includes extending him to prove to ownership he was a good signing in the first place. That is why as long as Rick is here, Cousins will be here too.

Rick doesn't survive another QB flop, and he knows that.

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
Contracts involve two sides. You make it sound like Cousins got everything he wanted and the Vikings got nothing.
Because that is exactly what happened. How do you not see that?
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
It is betting the house in the same way Walker was betting the house. Unless Cousins takes a huge step forward, his contract will have the same impact that Walker trade did. Not keep the team out of the playoffs over the next few seasons necessarily, but keep them from truly competing for a SB.
The same impact that the Walker trade had?

The same impact losing multiple high draft round picks over multiple years did?

Well, let's look at the records after the trade and signing.

A ten win team won 25 games over the next 3 seasons versus a 13 win team winning 25 over the next 3. Cap can sign good players too you know, teams don't just add good players via the draft. They also can lose good players if they don't have enough cap to pay them.
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Giving up 3 1st round picks for Watson is not betting the house. It is giving up a chance to draft the next Bradbury, Hughes, and Gladney for a clear upgrade at QB. How is that betting the house?
Yeah, it is giving up multiple best chances at finding impact players in the draft. That some of those swings in the draft pay off less than others, don't pay off immediately or don't pay off at all doesn't make the swings less important to the overall success of the team.
Giving up swings at multiple homeruns versus a sure thing grand slam. I know which one I pick, every time.
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
I think your real issue is with Spielman, not Cousins.
My issue is with both. Spielman for stupidly signing a QB to the contract he did, and Cousins for not living up to it.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:46 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
I admire your certainty about the relative value of the two players to their respective organizations and in terms of their overall league-wide value. I'm sure there are multiple other stats and metrics that show Cousins isn't near Wilson. You can point to their respective careers as well.

But it's just not that clear-cut.
:shock:
This is what I've been talking about.

If Wilson is so much better than Cousins, why don't the stats bear that out?

Wrong stats?

On what do you base your shocked emoji?
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm
Rick doesn't survive another QB flop, and he knows that.
So Rick lives and dies with the success of one player?

What about the rest of the team?

Why not, if Cousins wasn't panning out, just let the original contract expire? Why not dip into the draft and try to find someone better there?

The answer is simple - Rick was pleased with Cousins' performance and (correctly) realizes that other areas of the team are a far higher priority. That's because while Cousins isn't the best QB in the league, Rick doesn't need him to be the best QB in the league. He needs him to be good enough and the rest of the team along with him and they're cooking.

Put another way, Case Keenum isn't a great QB by any means, but in 2017 he was nearly good enough. Why? It's not because he was as good as Aaron Rodgers. It was because A) he had a great team around him, B) that good team stayed largely injury-free at all positions other than QB that year and C) they got hot/lucky at the right time. Too bad they ran into a buzzsaw in Foles and Philly that year, but clearly, you don't need Tom Brady to get to and have a good chance to win a Superbowl.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm
Cap can sign good players too you know, teams don't just add good players via the draft. They also can lose good players if they don't have enough cap to pay them.
You brought up Rodgers and Wilson as contract comparisons. So are the Packers hampered by Rodgers' contract? Are the Seahawks by Wilson?

If Cousins is being paid like those players, and those teams can remain competitive in terms of cap and cap moves, it stands to reason so can the Vikings.

If the Vikings are in cap difficulty, it's because Spielman spent a lot on other players at other positions and those haven't produced as expected whether due to just poor performance or injury.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm
Giving up swings at multiple homeruns versus a sure thing grand slam. I know which one I pick, every time.
The only sure thing grand slam in the league today is probably Tom Brady.

DeShaun Watson isn't even close. He's done nothing other than run up stats and get a lot of Vikings fans excited apparently.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 pm
My issue is with both. Spielman for stupidly signing a QB to the contract he did, and Cousins for not living up to it.
Give the guy an effective and consistent interior offensive line and let's see if he can live up to it.

CharVike has (correctly) pointed out multiple times that pass rush pressure makes nearly every QB struggle. In the playoffs the Buc offensive line kept a fairly immobile Tom Brady very clean. Consistently. As a result, Brady was able to be Brady and play his game and that is a lethal situation for pretty much any defense. The Chiefs couldn't keep Mahomes clean and he tried the Deshaun Watson heroics scrambling and couldn't do much. The Packers couldn't keep Rodgers clean and he struggled as well.

My issue with Spielman is not signing Cousins - it's failing to fix the interior OL. The way I see it, Spielman has this offseason to fix that. It's a tall order. He needs Bradbury to play like the 1st round pick he was. He ideally needs to keep Reiff around and hope that Cleveland develops further so he only has to find a LG in the upcoming draft. Then he has to hope that Rashawn Slater falls to #14 and he can plug right in at LG. Something like that has the best chance of success at fixing the problem.

If the problem is fixed, let's judge Cousins then, because at that point it really will come down to him.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:04 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm
Cousins will make 150 million from 2018-2022. During that time Aaron Rodgers will make 149 million and Russel Wilson will make 150 million and even the most ardent Cousins fan will not make the argument that Cousins adds close to the value Rodgers and Wilson do with a straight face.
In 2020, Russell Wilson threw 40 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.1.

In 2020, Kirk Cousins threw 35 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.0.

In addition to that, Wilson threw for fewer total yards with a lower YPA. He took 47 sacks as compared to Cousins 39.

Let's zoom back a bit and look at the total offense for the two teams for which these two QBs play.

Wilson's Seahawks finished 17th in total offense compared to Cousins' Vikings at 4th. Even if one looks only at passing yards per game, Cousins' Vikings finished 14th as compared to Wilson's Seahawks at 16th.

And you state with a straight face that only the most ardent Cousins fan could possibly argue that Cousins comes close to adding the value to his team that Wilson does?
Russell Wilson has led his team to the playoffs 9 times in 9 years. He’s 9-7 in the playoffs with two Super Bowl appearances and one ring. Meanwhile, Cousins has bested Wilson’s worst W-L record only once in his 9 seasons, and never in the same season. Cousins has won 51 games to Wilson’s 98. Kirk Cousins has only bested Wilson’s LIFETIME passer rating twice in any given season.

And the one season you choose to compare stats, Wilson’s stats were every bit as good as Cousins with a worse O-line and a bad defense. His total QBR was significantly higher, and he led his team to a 12-4 record. And let’s not even talk about game winning drives and fourth quarter comebacks. Wilson is among the best in history, while Cousins is ... well, Cousins.

Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins aren’t in the same stratosphere. It’s utterly laughable to compare the two.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:02 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:46 pm

Give the guy an effective and consistent interior offensive line and let's see if he can live up to it.

CharVike has (correctly) pointed out multiple times that pass rush pressure makes nearly every QB struggle. In the playoffs the Buc offensive line kept a fairly immobile Tom Brady very clean. Consistently. As a result, Brady was able to be Brady and play his game and that is a lethal situation for pretty much any defense. The Chiefs couldn't keep Mahomes clean and he tried the Deshaun Watson heroics scrambling and couldn't do much. The Packers couldn't keep Rodgers clean and he struggled as well.

My issue with Spielman is not signing Cousins - it's failing to fix the interior OL. The way I see it, Spielman has this offseason to fix that. It's a tall order. He needs Bradbury to play like the 1st round pick he was. He ideally needs to keep Reiff around and hope that Cleveland develops further so he only has to find a LG in the upcoming draft. Then he has to hope that Rashawn Slater falls to #14 and he can plug right in at LG. Something like that has the best chance of success at fixing the problem.

If the problem is fixed, let's judge Cousins then, because at that point it really will come down to him.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:17 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:04 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:49 pm


In 2020, Russell Wilson threw 40 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.1.

In 2020, Kirk Cousins threw 35 TDs against 13 INTs and had a rating of 105.0.

In addition to that, Wilson threw for fewer total yards with a lower YPA. He took 47 sacks as compared to Cousins 39.

Let's zoom back a bit and look at the total offense for the two teams for which these two QBs play.

Wilson's Seahawks finished 17th in total offense compared to Cousins' Vikings at 4th. Even if one looks only at passing yards per game, Cousins' Vikings finished 14th as compared to Wilson's Seahawks at 16th.

And you state with a straight face that only the most ardent Cousins fan could possibly argue that Cousins comes close to adding the value to his team that Wilson does?
Russell Wilson has led his team to the playoffs 9 times in 9 years. He’s 9-7 in the playoffs with two Super Bowl appearances and one ring. Meanwhile, Cousins has bested Wilson’s worst W-L record only once in his 9 seasons, and never in the same season. Cousins has won 51 games to Wilson’s 98. Kirk Cousins has only bested Wilson’s LIFETIME passer rating twice in any given season.

And the one season you choose to compare stats, Wilson’s stats were every bit as good as Cousins with a worse O-line and a bad defense. His total QBR was significantly higher, and he led his team to a 12-4 record. And let’s not even talk about game winning drives and fourth quarter comebacks. Wilson is among the best in history, while Cousins is ... well, Cousins.

Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins aren’t in the same stratosphere. It’s utterly laughable to compare the two.
Passing DVOA 2020:
Russel 6th
Cousins 11th

Average Defensive DVOA faced:
Russel 5th
Cousins 25th

Wilson's total TDs 42
Cousins' 36

Wilson's total yards 4725
Cousins' 4421

Wins:
Wilson's 12
Cousins' 7

Offense's points scored per drive:
Wilson: 7th
Cousins: 10th

Every single metric has Wilson over Cousins by a significant margin and that is without the benefit of the most dynamic runner in football forcing defenses to try and stop him and not the QB. Oh, it is also against a top 5 defensive schedule versus the cream puffs the Vikings faced for the majority of the season.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by vikeinmontana » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:22 pm

So we've determined now that both DeShaun Watson and Russell Wilson both aren't any better than Cousins.

We should be ECSTATIC as Vikings fans!

:banana:
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:18 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:42 pm
Look at guys like Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford and Derek Carr. All reset the market and I wouldnt say any of those 3 are better than Cousins is.
But would you say the decision to give them massive contracts was a good one? Considering combined those 3 have 1 playoff win total on those large contracts...

If 3 other teams make bad choices, that doesn't make your bad choice a good one, it just means you did the same stupid thing they did.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:25 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:17 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:04 pm

Russell Wilson has led his team to the playoffs 9 times in 9 years. He’s 9-7 in the playoffs with two Super Bowl appearances and one ring. Meanwhile, Cousins has bested Wilson’s worst W-L record only once in his 9 seasons, and never in the same season. Cousins has won 51 games to Wilson’s 98. Kirk Cousins has only bested Wilson’s LIFETIME passer rating twice in any given season.

And the one season you choose to compare stats, Wilson’s stats were every bit as good as Cousins with a worse O-line and a bad defense. His total QBR was significantly higher, and he led his team to a 12-4 record. And let’s not even talk about game winning drives and fourth quarter comebacks. Wilson is among the best in history, while Cousins is ... well, Cousins.

Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins aren’t in the same stratosphere. It’s utterly laughable to compare the two.
Passing DVOA 2020:
Russel 6th
Cousins 11th

Average Defensive DVOA faced:
Russel 5th
Cousins 25th

Wilson's total TDs 42
Cousins' 36

Wilson's total yards 4725
Cousins' 4421

Wins:
Wilson's 12
Cousins' 7

Offense's points scored per drive:
Wilson: 7th
Cousins: 10th

Every single metric has Wilson over Cousins by a significant margin and that is without the benefit of the most dynamic runner in football forcing defenses to try and stop him and not the QB. Oh, it is also against a top 5 defensive schedule versus the cream puffs the Vikings faced for the majority of the season.
Sorry man ... just occurred to me that my reply to your post probably looked like I was arguing with what you said. Actually I was agreeing with you. I'm guessing you knew that, but just making sure.

I'm wondering. Has any NFL quarterback besides Wilson ever led his team to the playoffs in each of his first nine seasons?

I can't find the answer, but if so, the list can't be long.

That, more than anything, is why I'd choose Russell Wilson over Kirk Cousins at twice the price (not literally ... figure of speech). But don't be offended, Cousins fans. I'd choose Russell Wilson over all but maybe two QBs in the NFL right now, and even those would be touch choices. The guy flat-out wins. We're talking 98 regular-season wins in 9 seasons, the most by any QB in NFL history. He's added 9 playoff wins, which means he's averaged just shy of 12 total wins per season since he entered the league. I've been at this Vikings fan thing for 52 years. I'd like to see us win the trophy ONCE in my freaking lifetime.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:10 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:25 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:17 am


Passing DVOA 2020:
Russel 6th
Cousins 11th

Average Defensive DVOA faced:
Russel 5th
Cousins 25th

Wilson's total TDs 42
Cousins' 36

Wilson's total yards 4725
Cousins' 4421

Wins:
Wilson's 12
Cousins' 7

Offense's points scored per drive:
Wilson: 7th
Cousins: 10th

Every single metric has Wilson over Cousins by a significant margin and that is without the benefit of the most dynamic runner in football forcing defenses to try and stop him and not the QB. Oh, it is also against a top 5 defensive schedule versus the cream puffs the Vikings faced for the majority of the season.
Sorry man ... just occurred to me that my reply to your post probably looked like I was arguing with what you said. Actually I was agreeing with you. I'm guessing you knew that, but just making sure.

I'm wondering. Has any NFL quarterback besides Wilson ever led his team to the playoffs in each of his first nine seasons?

I can't find the answer, but if so, the list can't be long.

That, more than anything, is why I'd choose Russell Wilson over Kirk Cousins at twice the price (not literally ... figure of speech). But don't be offended, Cousins fans. I'd choose Russell Wilson over all but maybe two QBs in the NFL right now, and even those would be touch choices. The guy flat-out wins. We're talking 98 regular-season wins in 9 seasons, the most by any QB in NFL history. He's added 9 playoff wins, which means he's averaged just shy of 12 total wins per season since he entered the league. I've been at this Vikings fan thing for 52 years. I'd like to see us win the trophy ONCE in my freaking lifetime.
Sorry, I did get that you were agreeing with me and I was just expanding on your stats.

It is crazy what Wilson has done right from the start and he might be the most underrated QB in football considering what he means for his team. You plug him into any team in the NFL and he has the worst in the NFL competing for the playoffs, and he makes an average team a SB contender.

Outside of WR and QB, that Seattle team was pretty mediocre, and they won 12 games. That is the difference an elite QB makes.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:18 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:42 pm
Look at guys like Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford and Derek Carr. All reset the market and I wouldnt say any of those 3 are better than Cousins is.
But would you say the decision to give them massive contracts was a good one? Considering combined those 3 have 1 playoff win total on those large contracts...

If 3 other teams make bad choices, that doesn't make your bad choice a good one, it just means you did the same stupid thing they did.
Never said it did? Those QBs were already rostered by their teams. Cousins was not rostered by the Vikings. But I mean would you really no pay Joe Flacco after he throws 11 tds 0 ints and wins a SB? I feel like you'd be obligated to. And in turn, you get screwed. We needed a QB. If you want to take a chance on a solid QB (veteran or rookie), you have to pay up, whether it be draft picks or salary cap. Everyone knew Cousins was going to get a big contract whether it was the Vikings or not. Hell he passed up even more money with the Jets. Like I dont get what you think his market should have been? He was a top 12 QB, in his prime and hit free agency. Like what do you think Matt Stafford would've pulled in his prime if he hit FA? Or Matt Ryan? And so on....? Hell, Matt Stafford is in the back end of his prime and hasnt done a damn thing in this league and the Rams just ponied up half their organization for him. Are these guys any better than Cousins? No. Are they going to get paid similar to how Cousins did? Yeah. And become one of the highest paid QBs in the league? Yeah. That's the QB MARKET! Every big name out there wants to be paid more than the next guy. It's all leverage based. I say this every year when you continue to have the same argument over and over again.

I'm sorry but you lost any sort of credibility you had when you did a mock offseason showing us keeping Keenum as our starter for going on FOUR years now and just "solving" the QB dilemma this past draft with Jordan Love who is far from a sure thing and IMO, a project QB at best that wont pan out. And then on top of that, overpaying a boat load of free agents we could never even afford even with Keenums contract and not Kirks. And then on top of that, thinking we'd somehow still have Diggs (who would've also costed us much more than Jefferson) because you have this laughable belief that he left because of Kirk Cousins. Ha, yeah Diggs left because of Kirk Cousins (who gave him the best years of his career) but would've stuck around for 4 years and be best pals with Case Keenum (who is right back to where I always said he'd be....the bench).

But you're going to try and say Spielman's move for Cousins was stupid....when THAT ^ was your genius plan??!! Ooof....
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:22 pm

https://purpleptsd.com/kirkcousinswasclutch/

This article just came out. Just throwing this out there.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by vikeinmontana » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:02 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm
Ha, yeah Diggs left because of Kirk Cousins (who gave him the best years of his career)
I get the overall sentiment of what you're saying. But who knows why Diggs left? Could have been many things. Though I'll counter that players rarely ask to leave teams with elite QB play, and in fact do just the opposite and TRY to go to teams with QB's they think give them the best shot to win.

Without knowing why Diggs wanted out, simply in terms of QB play his move to Buffalo was genius. His last season with the Vikes he had 63 catches for 1130 yards and 6tds. He was targeted 94 times.

In his FIRST year with Buffalo he had 127 catches for 1535 and 8td. He was targeted 127 times, more than double his last season in Minnesota.

I won't pretend to know why Diggs wanted to leave or suggest it was only because he didn't want to play with Kirk. But wide receivers more than anyone love to play with great QB's, and after his first season in Buffalo it sure appears like he moved on to a better quarterback.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:48 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:02 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm
Ha, yeah Diggs left because of Kirk Cousins (who gave him the best years of his career)
I get the overall sentiment of what you're saying. But who knows why Diggs left? Could have been many things. Though I'll counter that players rarely ask to leave teams with elite QB play, and in fact do just the opposite and TRY to go to teams with QB's they think give them the best shot to win.

Without knowing why Diggs wanted out, simply in terms of QB play his move to Buffalo was genius. His last season with the Vikes he had 63 catches for 1130 yards and 6tds. He was targeted 94 times.

In his FIRST year with Buffalo he had 127 catches for 1535 and 8td. He was targeted 127 times, more than double his last season in Minnesota.

I won't pretend to know why Diggs wanted to leave or suggest it was only because he didn't want to play with Kirk. But wide receivers more than anyone love to play with great QB's, and after his first season in Buffalo it sure appears like he moved on to a better quarterback.
The deal worked out for both teams. In the end, it could work out better for Minnesota, depending on who they get with the other three draft picks they got in the deal (or who they trade them for). Also, Justin Jefferson is more than 5 years younger than Diggs, and every bit as productive.

Here's the thing, though. In 2018, Diggs was targeted 149 times and had 102 receptions with 9 TDs. So it's not like he wasn't used here in Minnesota. Also, I have a hard time believing it had much to do with the quarterbacks. Remember, the 2019 version of Josh Allen, while sort of improved over his rookie year, was nowhere near the version he was in 2020. In 2019, Allen was a 58-percent passer with an 85 rating. Heck, he wasn't anywhere near Kirk Cousins' level in 2019.

Diggs wanted out for multiple reasons.

1) He wasn't getting the ball as much as he did when John DeFilippo was OC. Dude had 58 catches in the first half of 2018, then his targets took a dive in '19.
2) Adam Thielen got an extension that paid more than Diggs, which Diggs didn't like.
3) He didn't like the direction the Vikings were going offensively ... from tons of shotgun and spread formations under JDF to heavy sets and the running game under Stefanski.

If Stefon Diggs left because of Josh Allen, then he's freaking Nostradamus. I'm not sure anybody could have known that Allen would have the kind of breakout he had.
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