Next OC for the Vikings?

[StumpHunter]

OH, BTW.....in making it sound that the influence of Brady in the game was not huge, given that what he did in that particular game was very much "game management", taking what they give you, not turning the ball over much.....
1, those things were exactly the key to victory so he did what he needed to do and didnt let his justifiably immense ego get in the way.
2. You ignore the fact that all the key players in the Super Bowl Victory came to the team purely because of Brady's presence and leadership....Gronk, Brown, Fournette...they all have publicly stated that the only reason they came was due to Brady's presence and request. These are huge factors entirely absent from the Vikings organization and its laughable to try and draw a parallel between the two clubs. Its like a sitcom to picture Kirk Cousins calling big name NFL stars and saying , "Hey man, I got things totally under control here and I can lead you to the promised land....come join me.....". Hell none of them would even pick up the phone if they saw him on caller ID.

Since when was Fournette an NFL star? He has 3.9 ypc for his career. The Buc HC talked with him and told him to do things this way and if that don't work for you I can cut you right now. What has Brown done in recent memory to be labeled a star. Fournette will go to any team that calls him. IMO that Buc D started playing great D during the finale stretch. Rodgers and Mahomes didn't look like there usual great self's because the heat was coming. Rodgers was at home playing a team on there 3rd straight road game. That's easy pickings for him. Couldn't deal with the heat. There sive D couldn't handle Brady. Brady has proven he can play anyway it needs to be done. When he had Moss he was the mad bomber. He can also be a dink and dunk guy. He can do everything but run for big yardage. He knows there's no longevity taking that road. Give him big time heat and it changes everything. It does for all QBs.

Rodgers had a 100+ passer rating and threw for 350+ yards and 3 TDs. None of that was garbage time inflated numbers.

Mahomes had 3 elite level throws where he was throwing off his back foot or falling down that were drops. 2 of those would have been TDs or gotten KC inside the 5 that hit his receiver in the facemask, and 1 was a 20+ yard easy catch to Kelce that resulted in a punt that gave the Bucs great field position.

This is also just one game we are talking about here. In one game the Miami Dolphins can beat the eventual SB champ NE Patriots or the 7-9 Vikings can beat the eventual #1 seeded Packers. Stuff happens.

In the playoffs as whole, the Bucs D was solid if not spectacular, and it needed its offense to produce a decent amount of scoring to win.

[VikingLord]

Rodgers had a 100+ passer rating and threw for 350+ yards and 3 TDs. None of that was garbage time inflated numbers.

And yet despite those numbers Rodgers couldn't get the Packers back into the game despite his defense gifting him 3 second half turnovers.

The reason is the Bucs defense.

In the playoffs as whole, the Bucs D was solid if not spectacular, and it needed its offense to produce a decent amount of scoring to win.

That's the nature of the game. It's a team game, and no team is going to win it on the performance of one player or even one unit alone.

The Bucs D was really good in the playoffs. They consistently shut down the opposing running game and consistently brought substantial pressure in the passing game. On the road. Against every offense they faced and three of the elite QBs in the NFL.

[VikingLord]

OH, BTW.....in making it sound that the influence of Brady in the game was not huge, given that what he did in that particular game was very much "game management", taking what they give you, not turning the ball over much.....
1, those things were exactly the key to victory so he did what he needed to do and didnt let his justifiably immense ego get in the way.
2. You ignore the fact that all the key players in the Super Bowl Victory came to the team purely because of Brady's presence and leadership....Gronk, Brown, Fournette...they all have publicly stated that the only reason they came was due to Brady's presence and request. These are huge factors entirely absent from the Vikings organization and its laughable to try and draw a parallel between the two clubs. Its like a sitcom to picture Kirk Cousins calling big name NFL stars and saying , "Hey man, I got things totally under control here and I can lead you to the promised land....come join me.....". Hell none of them would even pick up the phone if they saw him on caller ID.

Look, I get it. You don't like Cousins and probably don't like much about the current state of the Vikings.

While you're entitled to that opinion, the comparisons between the Bucs and the Vikings aren't laughable.

The players you listed stepped up in key situations and made a difference for their respective teams. But let's not "Larry Brown" them just yet. If given the choice between Fournette and Cook, are you willing to say literally any team in the league, including the Bucs, would prefer Fournette?

Let's just dial it back a bit. The Vikings, with Kirk Cousins, aren't *that* far away from being able to compete for a Superbowl. Thye have a lot of top flight talent on the team. They need better interior OL play and better DL play along with the maturation of their young DBs, they need to have a largely injury-free season and then they need to get hot late in the season and into the playoffs. All of that is possible.

Having Deshaun Watson at QB instead of Kirk Cousins or even Tom Brady wouldn't alter any of those core requirements for a shot at the Superbowl next year. If they don't get those things addressed and things don't break their way they won't get near the Superbowl regardless of who plays QB.

[Texas Vike]

VL, What do you think our record is likely to be next season?

How do you see the next three years progressing for our team?

Hunter's willingness and ability to play for us is key, IMO. I keep hearing that he wants a big payday and may not be willing to play on his current contract. It is also not clear whether he's recovering well and will regain his pre-injury form. Without a good DL, Zimmer's D is soft and inefficient. I'm most interested in seeing if Zimmer can turn this D around quickly. If he can't, I suspect we'll be sub .500.

[StumpHunter]

Let's just dial it back a bit. The Vikings, with Kirk Cousins, aren't *that* far away from being able to compete for a Superbowl. Thye have a lot of top flight talent on the team. They need better interior OL play and better DL play along with the maturation of their young DBs, they need to have a largely injury-free season and then they need to get hot late in the season and into the playoffs. All of that is possible.

I think you are confusing being a good team and being good enough to win it all. We aren't that far away from being a 10 win team, we are really far away from being a SB contender.

You compare this Vikings' position groups to the Bucs, and outside of RB, where are they as good or better? What about KC, GB or Buffalo? Getting Hunter back and adding a rookie DT or DE with our first pick isn't going to get us to that level. Adding Thuney isn't going to get us there. When you go into almost every playoff game with worst QB on the field that day, you need to be that much better everywhere else, and the Vikings are a long way away from getting to that point, and do not have the assets to get there.

[StumpHunter]

The Bucs D was really good in the playoffs. They consistently shut down the opposing running game

The D shut down their run game or their offense did? When you are down multiple scores how much are you going to be running the football?

Helaire's YPA 7.1
Jones': 4.5
Kamar:4.7
Gibson:2.2

I would say they shutdown Washington's run game, most likely because they were selling out to stop the run knowing that the QB wasn't likely to beat them (even though he almost did), but the rest of the starting RBs who faced them had decent success on the few carries they had.

and consistently brought substantial pressure in the passing game.

Nope, outside of KC the most pressure they got on the QB was 30.2% of the drop backs against Rodgers who absolutely did keep his team in that game,btw. That 30.2 would have been good for the 12th lowest pressure rate for QBs in 2020. After that Brees was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks, Heinike 28.2%. There wasn't consistent pressure, there was below average pressure outside of the SB.

On the road. Against every offense they faced and three of the elite QBs in the NFL.

This is true except for the SB. This was also the year where home field advantage mattered the least.

[chicagopurple]

there is also a major "it" factor....
every point the Bucs scored in the SB was by 3 free agents that came to the team this year only because Brady contacted them and asked them to come.....every point!
The man is a leader, someone that makes other players better, someone who takes a situation, under fire and behind points and rallies the troops and wins the damn game.... Cousins has none of that character, has never ever performed in that way. They also have coaches who innovate and adapt, our coaches are pretty much out dated and believe in nepotism. Sorry but the Vikes are worlds behind the Bucs.

[VikingLord]

VL, What do you think our record is likely to be next season?

How do you see the next three years progressing for our team?

Hunter's willingness and ability to play for us is key, IMO. I keep hearing that he wants a big payday and may not be willing to play on his current contract. It is also not clear whether he's recovering well and will regain his pre-injury form. Without a good DL, Zimmer's D is soft and inefficient. I'm most interested in seeing if Zimmer can turn this D around quickly. If he can't, I suspect we'll be sub .500.

I can't answer your first question because I don't know what will happen during the offseason and whether the major weak spots on the team will be addressed and to what degree they are addressed if Spielman makes moves to address them.

I can say in regards to your first question, though, that if the only offseason move the Vikings were to make would be to trade for Watson, I doubt they would finish better than 8 wins next year. If only the play at QB is incrementally improved, but the play at the other areas of obvious weakness isn't, they're a game better at most and easily could finish with less than 7 wins.

As far as the next three years go, I think the Spielman-Zimmer-Cousins era has one more full season to run its course. I think all of them have had enough time to produce a Superbowl-competing team and so this next offseason and season are going to render a verdict on all of them. But I can't predict what that verdict will be given where things stand today. I just know that if Watson were the only change to the equation, that won't be enough in the short term to get them over the hump.

As you observed, the defensive performance needs to improve and there are lots of question marks, and not just with Hunter. He's definitely a factor, but equally significant is the development of the young CBs, what's going to happen at safety with Harris, and can the Vikings stay healthy at LB. There isn't a lot of depth there. The defensive line play not only needs pass rushing improvement, but the run defense and consistency have to markedly improve as well. On the bright side, if some assumptions can be made about the effective return of guys like Hunter and Pierce, the talent is there for the defense to return to more of what we've come to expect under Zimmer.

Let's revisit these questions around the time training camp starts and I'll be able to give you better answers.

[VikingLord]

Let's just dial it back a bit. The Vikings, with Kirk Cousins, aren't *that* far away from being able to compete for a Superbowl. Thye have a lot of top flight talent on the team. They need better interior OL play and better DL play along with the maturation of their young DBs, they need to have a largely injury-free season and then they need to get hot late in the season and into the playoffs. All of that is possible.

I think you are confusing being a good team and being good enough to win it all. We aren't that far away from being a 10 win team, we are really far away from being a SB contender.

You compare this Vikings' position groups to the Bucs, and outside of RB, where are they as good or better? What about KC, GB or Buffalo? Getting Hunter back and adding a rookie DT or DE with our first pick isn't going to get us to that level. Adding Thuney isn't going to get us there. When you go into almost every playoff game with worst QB on the field that day, you need to be that much better everywhere else, and the Vikings are a long way away from getting to that point, and do not have the assets to get there.

So if the only thing you go into the game with is the better QB that doesn't necessarily alter your calculus.

I just want to stress that my point isn't that Cousins is the best QB the Vikings could possibly have - just that with a solid team around him he's good enough. Teams have, and can, win the Superbowl without having the objectively better QB that day.

[VikingLord]

The Bucs D was really good in the playoffs. They consistently shut down the opposing running game

The D shut down their run game or their offense did? When you are down multiple scores how much are you going to be running the football?

Helaire's YPA 7.1
Jones': 4.5
Kamar:4.7
Gibson:2.2

I would say they shutdown Washington's run game, most likely because they were selling out to stop the run knowing that the QB wasn't likely to beat them (even though he almost did), but the rest of the starting RBs who faced them had decent success on the few carries they had.

and consistently brought substantial pressure in the passing game.

Nope, outside of KC the most pressure they got on the QB was 30.2% of the drop backs against Rodgers who absolutely did keep his team in that game,btw. That 30.2 would have been good for the 12th lowest pressure rate for QBs in 2020. After that Brees was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks, Heinike 28.2%. There wasn't consistent pressure, there was below average pressure outside of the SB.

On the road. Against every offense they faced and three of the elite QBs in the NFL.

This is true except for the SB. This was also the year where home field advantage mattered the least.

You seem intent on minimizing every aspect of the Bucs that doesn't wear a jersey with "Brady" on the back. Like all the Bucs needed this past season to get to and win the Superbowl was Tom Brady.

The fact is that neither the Saints nor the Packers nor the Chiefs could score enough against the Bucs to beat them. All Brady and the Buc offense can do to influence that is change field position and possibly modify how the opposing offense has to play to get back in the game. But the Buc defense is the unit that has to stop whatever that is.

They deserve credit for doing it, and their ability to do it, whether against the run or the pass, is a big reason why they won the Superbowl.

Brady is of course a big part of it too, and I'm not minimizing that, but he's far from the only reason.

[StumpHunter]

The D shut down their run game or their offense did? When you are down multiple scores how much are you going to be running the football?

Helaire's YPA 7.1
Jones': 4.5
Kamar:4.7
Gibson:2.2

I would say they shutdown Washington's run game, most likely because they were selling out to stop the run knowing that the QB wasn't likely to beat them (even though he almost did), but the rest of the starting RBs who faced them had decent success on the few carries they had.


Nope, outside of KC the most pressure they got on the QB was 30.2% of the drop backs against Rodgers who absolutely did keep his team in that game,btw. That 30.2 would have been good for the 12th lowest pressure rate for QBs in 2020. After that Brees was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks, Heinike 28.2%. There wasn't consistent pressure, there was below average pressure outside of the SB.

This is true except for the SB. This was also the year where home field advantage mattered the least.

You seem intent on minimizing every aspect of the Bucs that doesn't wear a jersey with "Brady" on the back. Like all the Bucs needed this past season to get to and win the Superbowl was Tom Brady.

The fact is that neither the Saints nor the Packers nor the Chiefs could score enough against the Bucs to beat them. All Brady and the Buc offense can do to influence that is change field position and possibly modify how the opposing offense has to play to get back in the game. But the Buc defense is the unit that has to stop whatever that is.

They deserve credit for doing it, and their ability to do it, whether against the run or the pass, is a big reason why they won the Superbowl.

Brady is of course a big part of it too, and I'm not minimizing that, but he's far from the only reason.

It isn't as simple as Brady won the SB or the defense won it. In the end the best overall team won this past SB, just like every other SB winner has been the best overall team. The defense, offense and STs all contributed to the win, but the single biggest factor in taking an all around great team in 2019 outside of the QB that missed the playoffs, to one that dominated the playoffs and won the SB, was Brady.

[J. Kapp 11]

OH, BTW.....in making it sound that the influence of Brady in the game was not huge, given that what he did in that particular game was very much "game management", taking what they give you, not turning the ball over much.....
1, those things were exactly the key to victory so he did what he needed to do and didnt let his justifiably immense ego get in the way.
2. You ignore the fact that all the key players in the Super Bowl Victory came to the team purely because of Brady's presence and leadership....Gronk, Brown, Fournette...they all have publicly stated that the only reason they came was due to Brady's presence and request. These are huge factors entirely absent from the Vikings organization and its laughable to try and draw a parallel between the two clubs. Its like a sitcom to picture Kirk Cousins calling big name NFL stars and saying , "Hey man, I got things totally under control here and I can lead you to the promised land....come join me.....". Hell none of them would even pick up the phone if they saw him on caller ID.

Look, I get it. You don't like Cousins and probably don't like much about the current state of the Vikings.

While you're entitled to that opinion, the comparisons between the Bucs and the Vikings aren't laughable.

The players you listed stepped up in key situations and made a difference for their respective teams. But let's not "Larry Brown" them just yet. If given the choice between Fournette and Cook, are you willing to say literally any team in the league, including the Bucs, would prefer Fournette?

Let's just dial it back a bit. The Vikings, with Kirk Cousins, aren't *that* far away from being able to compete for a Superbowl. Thye have a lot of top flight talent on the team. They need better interior OL play and better DL play along with the maturation of their young DBs, they need to have a largely injury-free season and then they need to get hot late in the season and into the playoffs. All of that is possible.

Having Deshaun Watson at QB instead of Kirk Cousins or even Tom Brady wouldn't alter any of those core requirements for a shot at the Superbowl next year. If they don't get those things addressed and things don't break their way they won't get near the Superbowl regardless of who plays QB.

Let’s be clear here.

Tampa Bay’s talent level up and down the roster is so far and away better than Minnesota’s that it’s laughable to compare. There’s not an NFL scout or executive who would disagree that they have top-2 or -3 talent in the NFL. How else could they have won 8 games in ‘19 with a QB who turned the ball over 36 times? Every position group on the field is better than ours, with wide receiver being the only one that’s close.

And with our cap situation, it’s likely that gap widens in 2021.

As for running back, right now I’d take Cook. But a team with Fournette at $2.5 million playing the way he did in the postseason could do a lot worse. And in a couple years, when Cook is pulling $13+ million in cap space, my answer might be different.

Here’s the thing about Tom Brady that we need to account for (and it applies to Deshaun Watson, as well). Every Tampa Bay player who scored a TD in the Super Bowl came to the Bucs AFTER Brady did. Let’s understand the significance of this. Brady is a DRAW to other players. Guys who are veterans take less money to play with Brady because they want a ring. They know he’s a leader who creates a winning culture around him, and they take less money than they might get somewhere else. Bill Belichick rode that pony for years in New England. Watson is reputed to be the same type of leader, although obviously without the NFL hardware.

What free agent says, “Man, I’d give up money to play with Kirk Cousins?”

The difference is gravity, not stats.

[YikesVikes]

I just wanted to add that QBs can make their OLs better. We have seen player after play leave the Pats from the OL and crash and burn in their new offense. Sometimes, having a smart QB, with a lighten release will erase those mistakes by the OL. Our QB has neither elite smarts or the ability to moves very well in the pocket.

[VikingLord]

Tampa Bay’s talent level up and down the roster is so far and away better than Minnesota’s that it’s laughable to compare. There’s not an NFL scout or executive who would disagree that they have top-2 or -3 talent in the NFL. How else could they have won 8 games in ‘19 with a QB who turned the ball over 36 times? Every position group on the field is better than ours, with wide receiver being the only one that’s close.

If they are so great, why didn't they win their division? Why were they a wildcard team?

Here’s the thing about Tom Brady that we need to account for (and it applies to Deshaun Watson, as well). Every Tampa Bay player who scored a TD in the Super Bowl came to the Bucs AFTER Brady did. Let’s understand the significance of this. Brady is a DRAW to other players. Guys who are veterans take less money to play with Brady because they want a ring. They know he’s a leader who creates a winning culture around him, and they take less money than they might get somewhere else. Bill Belichick rode that pony for years in New England. Watson is reputed to be the same type of leader, although obviously without the NFL hardware.

What free agent says, “Man, I’d give up money to play with Kirk Cousins?”

The difference is gravity, not stats.

Maybe, but I think you might be overplaying things a bit by looking at just one game to arrive at that conclusion.

I just don't agree that Watson would make that much of a difference overall. He certainly didn't for his current team, and there are plenty of other great QBs this year who didn't win the Superbowl.

The problems the Vikings have are not caused by Kirk Cousins. Replacing Cousins with a better QB by itself isn't going to get the Vikings anywhere near the Superbowl.

[J. Kapp 11]

Tampa Bay’s talent level up and down the roster is so far and away better than Minnesota’s that it’s laughable to compare. There’s not an NFL scout or executive who would disagree that they have top-2 or -3 talent in the NFL. How else could they have won 8 games in ‘19 with a QB who turned the ball over 36 times? Every position group on the field is better than ours, with wide receiver being the only one that’s close.

If they are so great, why didn't they win their division? Why were they a wildcard team?

Easy. They needed time to become acclimated to each other. No OTAs, abbreviated training camp, no preseason. In the beginning, Arians was trying to shoehorn Brady into his "no risk it, no biscuit" form of throw-it-long offense. But as they got past their bye in Week 11, they began to mix it up. They ran the ball. They threw short and to the backs. And when they did throw long, their efficiency went way up. It took time for Arians and Brady to get on the same page. Once they did, it was lights out. That roster was too talented across all positions to lose with an offense that was as efficient as theirs became.

By the last six weeks of the season, they were easily the best team in that division. In fact, it's not a stretch to say they were the best team in the NFL, since they did, in fact, hoist the trophy.

Here’s the thing about Tom Brady that we need to account for (and it applies to Deshaun Watson, as well). Every Tampa Bay player who scored a TD in the Super Bowl came to the Bucs AFTER Brady did. Let’s understand the significance of this. Brady is a DRAW to other players. Guys who are veterans take less money to play with Brady because they want a ring. They know he’s a leader who creates a winning culture around him, and they take less money than they might get somewhere else. Bill Belichick rode that pony for years in New England. Watson is reputed to be the same type of leader, although obviously without the NFL hardware.

What free agent says, “Man, I’d give up money to play with Kirk Cousins?”

The difference is gravity, not stats.

Maybe, but I think you might be overplaying things a bit by looking at just one game to arrive at that conclusion.

I just don't agree that Watson would make that much of a difference overall. He certainly didn't for his current team, and there are plenty of other great QBs this year who didn't win the Superbowl.

The problems the Vikings have are not caused by Kirk Cousins. Replacing Cousins with a better QB by itself isn't going to get the Vikings anywhere near the Superbowl.

You didn't answer my question. Name a player who's gonna say, "Wow. I have a chance to play with Kirk Cousins? Sign me up!" You can't.

Substitute the name Deshaun Watson, and I guarantee you'll get a different answer, if for no other reason than his reputation as a leader and his pedigree from Clemson.

And sorry, but I am definitely NOT using one game to arrive at that conclusion. If you haven't learned by now that I don't post ANYTHING without doing my homework, then you haven't been paying attention. I saw Arians interviewed about this just a couple days ago. Leonard Fournette was coming on like gangbusters at the end of the season and the playoffs. But months before, Arians had sold him on Tampa Bay because he'd have a chance to play with Tom Brady and win a championship. When Fournette was frustrated in the beginning at his low usage (19 touches in his first five games), Arians told him to be patient, that his time was coming. Arians also said that players definitely took into account the fact that Tom Brady was the Bucs quarterback. When you've got veterans — especially those classified as "ring chasers," who have played well but haven't been on a contender — wanting to sign with you, even willing to take less money than they could get elsewhere, that puts you at a tremendous competitive advantage.

So there's little doubt that a guy like Tom Brady has tremendous gravity. The Super Bowl was just a stark illustration of it, not the sole basis for my comment.

And yeah, we can disagree about whether Deshaun Watson has any such pull. You say no. I say yes. But there's one thing for sure.

Nobody dreams of playing with Kirk Cousins.