Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

[Pondering Her Percy]

Is this a trick question?

From the OP:

GM Rick Spielman- I'm know some of you like him and some of you dont. You all know that I've always been a fan of his. IMO, he is not the problem by any means. This team is still loaded with talent and Spielman is the person bringing that talent in. He's also given us 27+ draft picks between 2020 and 2021. That's what most teams get in 4 years, we're doing it in 2. Granted, Spielman has had his misses but tell me a GM that hasnt? No less he just nailed this past draft class IMO with another 11-12 picks coming up in the 2021 draft.

This guy certainly seems to defend every move Rick makes no matter the outcome, and there are others who think this team 7 win team that beat one team with record over .500 is "loaded with talent".

Ha...shocker. Answer me this, what did I say in my original post that would make what I said false in any way?

-I admitted I like Rick Spielman as our GM. Not trying to keep that secret but also entitled to my own opinion.

-This team is indeed still loaded with talent. Trying to judge Spielman off of this year when the best 4 players on this defense not named Harrison Smith were injured, saying it’s not “loaded with talent” is just plain ignorant. Are there holes? Sure. There’s teams currently in the playoffs with massive holes. Take the 4 best players off the saints defense, let me know how they do. Take the best 4 players off the packers defense, let me know how they do. I could go on. Then you top that with the aging veterans that were let go and the young inexperienced rookies came in. No less these 4 players aren’t just good players, they are very good to elite players. And to add onto that, the Vikings were 4th in total offense this year so clearly there is plenty of talent on that side of the ball.

I’ve said all along, Danielle Hunter isn’t only the best player on the defense, I think he’s the best player on the team. He’s an elite pass rusher and elite vs the run. Kendricks is as elite as they come at LB. Pierce has been arguably the best run stuffing NT in the league the last few years. And Barr is a massive part of this defense who is very underrated. The stats past the box score prove that. When Barr and Kendrick’s were both out, the blitzing literally seemed to stop. The double A gap Zim runs completely disappeared. Their run defense was horrendous. Regardless, this team has talent and plenty of it. And that talent was brought in by Rick Spielman whether you like it or not.

-has he not given us 27+ draft picks between this past draft and next?

-did I not mention that he’s had his misses?

-does it not look like he had a solid draft class this past year. Even with Jefferson aside?

I know that you just eat up the fact that the Vikings won just 7 games so you can rip the GM and act like this is some bone dry roster that doesn’t have any talent on it. But are you really going to sit there and tell me that if the Vikings had 4 of their 5 best players on defense playing all year they wouldn’t be in the playoffs? In the first 9 games, the Vikings lost 3 games by 5 total points (1, 1, 3). I’m not just trying to make an excuse and saying “well they were missing one player so that was the reason”. If I told you at the start of the season that the Vikings defense would be without Barr, Hunter, pierce and then Kendrick’s for the last 1/4 of the season, would you think they’d have any shot at the playoffs? Shockingly they were much closer than expected. Mainly due to the offense. But I guarantee you, you wouldnt think they’d be able to recover from that either.

So you can direct your comments at me all you want, but what I said in the original post is in no way, shape or form false

[YikesVikes]

Did I go over on my bid?????

You bid 40k for a Hyundai Elantra and a trip to Montana. You deserved to lose.

[YikesVikes]

Bro, Why would you look at those drafted before him as an assessment of Wayne's talent?
You have got to stop posting responses like this. It is getting hard to take them seriously. You are basically saying that because other teams drafted busts ahead of Waynes and Barr....that it makes our reach for them ok. WTF!?!

lol coming from the guy that was calling Waynes and Barr "busts". I've never in my life heard of a guy thats top 3 across the league in many major categories pertaining to his position somehow called a bust. VL hit it on the head with the whole optical illusion explanation. You have this imaginary draft guide that has zero validity to it. "If a guy isnt the __th best player in the draft or better, he's a bust". That's literally what you were saying. How is anyone suppose to take that seriously? Like that literally doesnt even make any sense. Then you change your tone and say "disappointment". If a guy is picked at 9 but is the 14th best player in the draft, that means he's a disappointment? Again, what?

And now you're saying Barr and Waynes were reaches? Barr and Waynes were both projected early first rounders, not flash in the pan combine heroes. Waynes was consistently listed above Peters in just about any list you looked at. Barr was no different.

And go look at any draft do-over you can find....many analysts have the Vikings still picking Barr. Not one is calling him a bust or disappointment.

Like the Bucs, the Vikings are keeping their original pick. And why not? Anthony Barr has been an absolute stud for Mike Zimmer's defense. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better outside 'backer in a 4-3 system than this former UCLA standout.

Again, this is another pick I would not change. Anthony Barr has proven to be a perfect fit and invaluable asset for Mike Zimmer's defense. He's been to four straight Pro Bowls, so I don't think Minnesota would like a do-over here.

Original Pick: Anthony Barr

New Pick: Anthony Barr

The first pick on this NFL Draft list to go chalk, Barr was an excellent selection by the Vikings at No. 9. The former UCLA star has been an anchor for the Minnesota defense for the past half-decade

Barr has started 85 (regular-season) games for the Vikings over the past six seasons and has racked up 417 tackles, 36 tackles for a loss and four Pro Bowls.

^ that's the man you called a "bust"...... that's the top 3 draft do-overs on the search. I'm sure there are plenty more that show similar write ups.

He's not the 11th best player in the draft. That's what I asked you. Not only is he not worthy of the 11th pick... He was the 3rd best player we drafted that year. What are you really trying to stretch to here? Waynes is not a great player. He is solid. No team aims to draft a solid player with the 11th pick. He is a disappointment. If the Vikings could do it over again... they would not select him with the 11th pick. Case close.

lol the funny thing is....you have no case to close. You just went from saying he's a bust to saying he's solid. You literally dont have a clue what you're even saying right now.

As for Barr, the following guys have outplayed him consistently and were drafted after him.

CJ Mosley - At his position
Zack Martin - Yikes
ODJ -
Shazier - Huge miss. The injury might not happen in Min.
Donald - Hall of Famer
Cooks - Productive at his position no matter where he is.
Verrett - One of the best CBs in the league before the injury
Lawrence -
Adams - Top 5 WR
Robinson top 15 WR
Landry - Productive
Ford -

I stopped in the 2nd round to keep things reasonable. These guys were all available and we took Barr. The 2 LBs drafted after him are better than him and more impactful. Again. Based on play, he's at best a 2nd rounder. If the Vikings had the 9th pick and could do the draft all over, Barr doesn't get selected 9th. Disappointment.

Now this......this is quite comical. This is just such a "hindsight-y" argument by you and you're talking like you're an expert. My suggestion, be prepared to speak on these players before throwing names out there that you think (according to your draft scale) are better than Barr.

First of all, literally every analyst still picks Barr at 9th to the VIkings in any draft do over so you're wrong there.

Second, yeah good player but CJ Mosely is an inside LB, which is not at all the same position as Barr.

Third, Dee Ford is literally the complete opposite of consistent. And to add a cherry on top, the mental side of things arent quite there either. The guy literally lined up offside in the AFC championship game and single handedly cost his team a trip to the SB.

Fourth, Lawrence....ALSO the complete opposite of consistent. 2 years in a row of double digit sacks, the following two years he hasnt been able to surpass 6.5. Cowboys fans are not happy where I'm from.

Fifth, productive, sure but has been on 4 teams in that span....so what makes you think he'd still be on the Vikings roster?

Sixth, Shazier? Come on. Yeah the guy had a freak injury and is no longer playing football but you're trying to use him in this to somehow help your argument?

And finally, the best of them all.... you're literally using a guy that has played double digit games just ONCE in his career and then follow it up by saying he's a guy that consistently outplayed Anthony Barr Dude Verrett's career games are as follows:

6
14
4
1
1
13

....and that 13 game season was just this season. That alone, not even addressing any of the other players you mentioned above, shows me that I'm doing nothing but wasting my time with you. For you to go to that length and basically try and "project" that he would've been a better overall player than Barr just makes for a tremendously weak argument.

And you stopped at the 2nd?!!! So the point of your whole argument is you questioning Spielmans judgement but you're talking about players you think are better than Anthony Barr that were taken in the 2nd round? Dude whattt? So you're faulting Rick Spielman for not taking a projected 2nd round pick at #9 overall??!! And you want to talk about value??!!

Dude I cant with you anymore smh....this entire argument is closed. I'm ticked at myself for wasting that much time responding to you. Good luck trying to get someone to agree with your ridiculous logic.

Lol. Your dismissal of all these players proves that you are drinking too much purple Kool aid and that you dont watch enough football. Two hall of famers were drafted after Barr at positions of need. He was a bad pick we have Donald getting tripped team and still making the sack while Barr is doing this ####

https://mobile.twitter.com/Luke_Spinman ... 0377171968

Shaizer was way better than Barr prior to the freak injury. I stopped at the 2nd round because those guys could have been 1st rounder on one teams draft board but the draft feel awkwardly.

My point has always been the same. Based on where he was drafted... He's a bust. One do not draft solid or average players with the 9th pick. You draft impactful, studs. Take off the pure shades.

[YikesVikes]

Is this a trick question?

From the OP:



This guy certainly seems to defend every move Rick makes no matter the outcome, and there are others who think this team 7 win team that beat one team with record over .500 is "loaded with talent".

Ha...shocker. Answer me this, what did I say in my original post that would make what I said false in any way?

-I admitted I like Rick Spielman as our GM. Not trying to keep that secret but also entitled to my own opinion.

-This team is indeed still loaded with talent. Trying to judge Spielman off of this year when the best 4 players on this defense not named Harrison Smith were injured, saying it’s not “loaded with talent” is just plain ignorant. Are there holes? Sure. There’s teams currently in the playoffs with massive holes. Take the 4 best players off the saints defense, let me know how they do. Take the best 4 players off the packers defense, let me know how they do. I could go on. Then you top that with the aging veterans that were let go and the young inexperienced rookies came in. No less these 4 players aren’t just good players, they are very good to elite players. And to add onto that, the Vikings were 4th in total offense this year so clearly there is plenty of talent on that side of the ball.

I’ve said all along, Danielle Hunter isn’t only the best player on the defense, I think he’s the best player on the team. He’s an elite pass rusher and elite vs the run. Kendricks is as elite as they come at LB. Pierce has been arguably the best run stuffing NT in the league the last few years. And Barr is a massive part of this defense who is very underrated. The stats past the box score prove that. When Barr and Kendrick’s were both out, the blitzing literally seemed to stop. The double A gap Zim runs completely disappeared. Their run defense was horrendous. Regardless, this team has talent and plenty of it. And that talent was brought in by Rick Spielman whether you like it or not.

-has he not given us 27+ draft picks between this past draft and next?

-did I not mention that he’s had his misses?

-does it not look like he had a solid draft class this past year. Even with Jefferson aside?

I know that you just eat up the fact that the Vikings won just 7 games so you can rip the GM and act like this is some bone dry roster that doesn’t have any talent on it. But are you really going to sit there and tell me that if the Vikings had 4 of their 5 best players on defense playing all year they wouldn’t be in the playoffs? In the first 9 games, the Vikings lost 3 games by 5 total points (1, 1, 3). I’m not just trying to make an excuse and saying “well they were missing one player so that was the reason”. If I told you at the start of the season that the Vikings defense would be without Barr, Hunter, pierce and then Kendrick’s for the last 1/4 of the season, would you think they’d have any shot at the playoffs? Shockingly they were much closer than expected. Mainly due to the offense. But I guarantee you, you wouldnt think they’d be able to recover from that either.

So you can direct your comments at me all you want, but what I said in the original post is in no way, shape or form false

Talks about us almost making the playoffs, neglects to mention we missed it despite the playoffs being extended. If it was back to the 6 it usually was... We weren't close to sniffing them. We missed the regular playoffs by 4 games. 3 of we had the tie breaker. And if the Saints lost 4 players they would still make the playoffs. They lost their HOFer Qb and made it 2 years in a row. Again this is the difference in a good GM and a regular one. As much as I hate the Saints they had good depth at almost all their positions. Losing Cam Jordon will hurt but not kill them. They would still find a way to win more than 8 games. Same with the Packers. They could lose anyone not name Rogers and still make the playoffs. We can't lose Anthony Barr. It shows how bad your depth is. Special teams tends to be made up of your best depth players. We were near the bottom in almost every category. We have no depth despite the 27 picks you love to have about in the draft

[StumpHunter]

-This team is indeed still loaded with talent. Trying to judge Spielman off of this year when the best 4 players on this defense not named Harrison Smith were injured, saying it’s not “loaded with talent” is just plain ignorant. Are there holes? Sure. There’s teams currently in the playoffs with massive holes. Take the 4 best players off the saints defense, let me know how they do. Take the best 4 players off the packers defense, let me know how they do. I could go on. Then you top that with the aging veterans that were let go and the young inexperienced rookies came in. No less these 4 players aren’t just good players, they are very good to elite players. And to add onto that, the Vikings were 4th in total offense this year so clearly there is plenty of talent on that side of the ball.

Lots of teams had injuries this season. The actual teams loaded with talent got by with the other pieces they had in place, the Vikings went 7-9 despite only playing 7 games against teams with a winning record.

I’ve said all along, Danielle Hunter isn’t only the best player on the defense, I think he’s the best player on the team. He’s an elite pass rusher and elite vs the run. Kendricks is as elite as they come at LB. Pierce has been arguably the best run stuffing NT in the league the last few years. And Barr is a massive part of this defense who is very underrated. The stats past the box score prove that. When Barr and Kendrick’s were both out, the blitzing literally seemed to stop. The double A gap Zim runs completely disappeared. Their run defense was horrendous. Regardless, this team has talent and plenty of it. And that talent was brought in by Rick Spielman whether you like it or not.

I can go back to prior to 2019 and point to multiple threads where you were 100% on board with letting Barr walk in FAs. Now he is a massive part of this defense? Hunter being out was indeed a HUGE part of our defense struggling and it is almost like this team isn't so loaded with talent that we can afford to miss him. We had pretty much everyone for game 1 but Hunter, and the D looked then like it did in week 17.

-has he not given us 27+ draft picks between this past draft and next?

Do you think some of the 6th and 7th rounders will actually make the team at the start of the season this year? Any GM can say yes when another team wants to trade up with them and accumulate picks. Any team can trade a 5th this year for a 4th next. It isn't a unique skill Spielman has acquired. Whether or not it is a good thing to do is determined by whether or not we get players that make us a SB contender with the picks picked up. Success in the draft is not how many picks are acquired. Never has been.

-does it not look like he had a solid draft class this past year. Even with Jefferson aside?

No?

Putting aside JJ, what rookie was not a liability on the field this year? The oft injured Dantzler I guess, who benefitted greatly from our first round pick leaving his guy open all game, and QBs never needing to even look his way. Cleveland was one of the worst pass blocking guards in the NFL, Gladney was one of the worst cover corners and Wonnum sucked against the run late, and was a very inconsistent pass rush to top it off.

I know that you just eat up the fact that the Vikings won just 7 games so you can rip the GM and act like this is some bone dry roster that doesn’t have any talent on it. But are you really going to sit there and tell me that if the Vikings had 4 of their 5 best players on defense playing all year they wouldn’t be in the playoffs? In the first 9 games, the Vikings lost 3 games by 5 total points (1, 1, 3). I’m not just trying to make an excuse and saying “well they were missing one player so that was the reason”. If I told you at the start of the season that the Vikings defense would be without Barr, Hunter, pierce and then Kendrick’s for the last 1/4 of the season, would you think they’d have any shot at the playoffs? Shockingly they were much closer than expected. Mainly due to the offense. But I guarantee you, you wouldnt think they’d be able to recover from that either.

I am not happy the team won 7 games, which is why I want the GM and HC gone. If I were happy with this season, I would be defending the GM.

This excuse that the Vikings were THIS close to winning 10 games ignores the fact the Vikings where THIS close to winning 1 game this season. Against Houston Watson hit his guy in the hands in the end zone for what could have been a game tying TD. Against GB a missed PI was key in ending a GB drive that could have put GB ahead to win the game. Against Chicago Foles had a guy wide open on an easy pass to put the Bears ahead and he overthrew him. Carolina was a missed FG gave us a win and we had to go to OT to beat the Jaguars. Even week 17 it took a phantom roughing the passer call to ensure a win against Detroit. The fact is, we were closer to drafting in the top 10 than we were to making the playoffs if we play the "what if" game.

So you can direct your comments at me all you want, but what I said in the original post is in no way, shape or form false

It wasn't directed at you, I was responding to someone else, but your post is just an opinion that you are free to have.

[Pondering Her Percy]

lol coming from the guy that was calling Waynes and Barr "busts". I've never in my life heard of a guy thats top 3 across the league in many major categories pertaining to his position somehow called a bust. VL hit it on the head with the whole optical illusion explanation. You have this imaginary draft guide that has zero validity to it. "If a guy isnt the __th best player in the draft or better, he's a bust". That's literally what you were saying. How is anyone suppose to take that seriously? Like that literally doesnt even make any sense. Then you change your tone and say "disappointment". If a guy is picked at 9 but is the 14th best player in the draft, that means he's a disappointment? Again, what?

And now you're saying Barr and Waynes were reaches? Barr and Waynes were both projected early first rounders, not flash in the pan combine heroes. Waynes was consistently listed above Peters in just about any list you looked at. Barr was no different.

And go look at any draft do-over you can find....many analysts have the Vikings still picking Barr. Not one is calling him a bust or disappointment.







^ that's the man you called a "bust"...... that's the top 3 draft do-overs on the search. I'm sure there are plenty more that show similar write ups.



lol the funny thing is....you have no case to close. You just went from saying he's a bust to saying he's solid. You literally dont have a clue what you're even saying right now.



Now this......this is quite comical. This is just such a "hindsight-y" argument by you and you're talking like you're an expert. My suggestion, be prepared to speak on these players before throwing names out there that you think (according to your draft scale) are better than Barr.

First of all, literally every analyst still picks Barr at 9th to the VIkings in any draft do over so you're wrong there.

Second, yeah good player but CJ Mosely is an inside LB, which is not at all the same position as Barr.

Third, Dee Ford is literally the complete opposite of consistent. And to add a cherry on top, the mental side of things arent quite there either. The guy literally lined up offside in the AFC championship game and single handedly cost his team a trip to the SB.

Fourth, Lawrence....ALSO the complete opposite of consistent. 2 years in a row of double digit sacks, the following two years he hasnt been able to surpass 6.5. Cowboys fans are not happy where I'm from.

Fifth, productive, sure but has been on 4 teams in that span....so what makes you think he'd still be on the Vikings roster?

Sixth, Shazier? Come on. Yeah the guy had a freak injury and is no longer playing football but you're trying to use him in this to somehow help your argument?

And finally, the best of them all.... you're literally using a guy that has played double digit games just ONCE in his career and then follow it up by saying he's a guy that consistently outplayed Anthony Barr Dude Verrett's career games are as follows:

6
14
4
1
1
13

....and that 13 game season was just this season. That alone, not even addressing any of the other players you mentioned above, shows me that I'm doing nothing but wasting my time with you. For you to go to that length and basically try and "project" that he would've been a better overall player than Barr just makes for a tremendously weak argument.

And you stopped at the 2nd?!!! So the point of your whole argument is you questioning Spielmans judgement but you're talking about players you think are better than Anthony Barr that were taken in the 2nd round? Dude whattt? So you're faulting Rick Spielman for not taking a projected 2nd round pick at #9 overall??!! And you want to talk about value??!!

Dude I cant with you anymore smh....this entire argument is closed. I'm ticked at myself for wasting that much time responding to you. Good luck trying to get someone to agree with your ridiculous logic.

Lol. Your dismissal of all these players proves that you are drinking too much purple Kool aid and that you dont watch enough football. Two hall of famers were drafted after Barr at positions of need. He was a bad pick we have Donald getting tripped team and still making the sack while Barr is doing this ####

https://mobile.twitter.com/Luke_Spinman ... 0377171968

Shaizer was way better than Barr prior to the freak injury. I stopped at the 2nd round because those guys could have been 1st rounder on one teams draft board but the draft feel awkwardly.

My point has always been the same. Based on where he was drafted... He's a bust. One do not draft solid or average players with the 9th pick. You draft impactful, studs. Take off the pure shades.

Is it just me or did you really like your own post to make it look like someone actually agrees with your logic?

Anyways, now you're just adding speculation to players that are injured and also to players that havent even hit age 30 yet and you're calling them hall of famers. This is just getting downright silly now. And it's exactly why I said the argument is closed. There is zero reasoning with you.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Ha...shocker. Answer me this, what did I say in my original post that would make what I said false in any way?

-I admitted I like Rick Spielman as our GM. Not trying to keep that secret but also entitled to my own opinion.

-This team is indeed still loaded with talent. Trying to judge Spielman off of this year when the best 4 players on this defense not named Harrison Smith were injured, saying it’s not “loaded with talent” is just plain ignorant. Are there holes? Sure. There’s teams currently in the playoffs with massive holes. Take the 4 best players off the saints defense, let me know how they do. Take the best 4 players off the packers defense, let me know how they do. I could go on. Then you top that with the aging veterans that were let go and the young inexperienced rookies came in. No less these 4 players aren’t just good players, they are very good to elite players. And to add onto that, the Vikings were 4th in total offense this year so clearly there is plenty of talent on that side of the ball.

I’ve said all along, Danielle Hunter isn’t only the best player on the defense, I think he’s the best player on the team. He’s an elite pass rusher and elite vs the run. Kendricks is as elite as they come at LB. Pierce has been arguably the best run stuffing NT in the league the last few years. And Barr is a massive part of this defense who is very underrated. The stats past the box score prove that. When Barr and Kendrick’s were both out, the blitzing literally seemed to stop. The double A gap Zim runs completely disappeared. Their run defense was horrendous. Regardless, this team has talent and plenty of it. And that talent was brought in by Rick Spielman whether you like it or not.

-has he not given us 27+ draft picks between this past draft and next?

-did I not mention that he’s had his misses?

-does it not look like he had a solid draft class this past year. Even with Jefferson aside?

I know that you just eat up the fact that the Vikings won just 7 games so you can rip the GM and act like this is some bone dry roster that doesn’t have any talent on it. But are you really going to sit there and tell me that if the Vikings had 4 of their 5 best players on defense playing all year they wouldn’t be in the playoffs? In the first 9 games, the Vikings lost 3 games by 5 total points (1, 1, 3). I’m not just trying to make an excuse and saying “well they were missing one player so that was the reason”. If I told you at the start of the season that the Vikings defense would be without Barr, Hunter, pierce and then Kendrick’s for the last 1/4 of the season, would you think they’d have any shot at the playoffs? Shockingly they were much closer than expected. Mainly due to the offense. But I guarantee you, you wouldnt think they’d be able to recover from that either.

So you can direct your comments at me all you want, but what I said in the original post is in no way, shape or form false

Talks about us almost making the playoffs, neglects to mention we missed it despite the playoffs being extended. If it was back to the 6 it usually was... We weren't close to sniffing them. We missed the regular playoffs by 4 games. 3 of we had the tie breaker. And if the Saints lost 4 players they would still make the playoffs. They lost their HOFer Qb and made it 2 years in a row. Again this is the difference in a good GM and a regular one. As much as I hate the Saints they had good depth at almost all their positions. Losing Cam Jordon will hurt but not kill them. They would still find a way to win more than 8 games. Same with the Packers. They could lose anyone not name Rogers and still make the playoffs. We can't lose Anthony Barr. It shows how bad your depth is. Special teams tends to be made up of your best depth players. We were near the bottom in almost every category. We have no depth despite the 27 picks you love to have about in the draft

The classic reading what you want to read comment.

Yeah I neglected to mention we missed the playoffs despite an extension?

1.) Not sure why I had to mention that the playoffs were extended when clearly everyone knows that.
2.) You failed to read the part where I said we lost 3 games by a total of 5 points in those first 9 games WITH a depleted defense. Not a defense that just wasnt good, a defense that was drastically effected by injuries to top players and inexperienced rookies. If they close those 3 games, the Vikings are sitting at 7-2 after 9 games.
3.) So now that the playoffs are changed, next time the Vikings get in as the 7th seed are you not going to count it because in the old playoffs they would've missed it? The fact that it's no longer a 6 team playoff is irrelevant. The NFL changed the rule and that's how it's going to be for the foreseeable future.

As for the Saints....they also had a Hall of Fame QB and went 7-9 and missed the playoffs 3 years in a row ('14-'16). So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there. No less it shows me how little you pay attention to the rest of the league. The Saints offense was pretty terrible while Brees was out. Their defense was keeping them in games. They were up in the high 300 to mid-400 range of total yards per game. When Hill took over and Brees was out, they dropped into high 200-300 range. So like I said, if you remove those players from those top players from their defense, there isnt a shot in hell they make playoffs. Literally no chance. Their defense is what got them as far as they did. They are one of the best defenses in football right now.

Look at the 49ers as an example. A team that was decimated by injuries and missed the playoffs just one year after they made the SB. The hell with the saints, this was literally the best team in the NFC heading into this season. Is anyone criticizing John Lynch and Shanahan for not providing enough depth? Or drafting a bunch of busts? No.

As for the Barr comment, it screams desperation with your argument. Talk about someone neglecting to mention something. You are saying in your comment above that we couldnt make the playoffs because we lost Anthony Barr. Umm....no. This defense couldnt stop anyone because they lost Barr, Hunter, Pierce opted out, Kendricks was out the last 1/4 of the season and the CB room was filled with young inexperienced rookies. We didnt just "lose Barr"

And then you follow it up with, we have "no depth". Your spectrum is so far out of whack right now it's not even funny.

All I'm hearing and what is being implied is the Vikings practically wouldnt have made the playoffs anyways with all those guys on defense, our team just sucks, we have no depth, we drafted a bunch of busts, Kirk Cousins sucks, Zimmer cant get it done, Spielman cant get it done...the Vikings are an absolute mess.

.....wow, does that put it into perspective anymore about how ridiculous you sound?

[YikesVikes]

Lol. Your dismissal of all these players proves that you are drinking too much purple Kool aid and that you dont watch enough football. Two hall of famers were drafted after Barr at positions of need. He was a bad pick we have Donald getting tripped team and still making the sack while Barr is doing this ####

https://mobile.twitter.com/Luke_Spinman ... 0377171968

Shaizer was way better than Barr prior to the freak injury. I stopped at the 2nd round because those guys could have been 1st rounder on one teams draft board but the draft feel awkwardly.

My point has always been the same. Based on where he was drafted... He's a bust. One do not draft solid or average players with the 9th pick. You draft impactful, studs. Take off the pure shades.

Is it just me or did you really like your own post to make it look like someone actually agrees with your logic?

Anyways, now you're just adding speculation to players that are injured and also to players that havent even hit age 30 yet and you're calling them hall of famers. This is just getting downright silly now. And it's exactly why I said the argument is closed. There is zero reasoning with you.

You think Aaron Donald and Zack Martin aren't locks for the Hall of Fame? Lol. Our GM passed on 2 HOFers in the 1st round to draft Barr. No matter what you say, it was a mistake. I don't care if 20 other GMs made the same mistake. You seem incapable of saying Drafting Barr was a mistake. You seem incapable of saying this GM makes any mistakes. You should look deep inside and ask yourself why?

Also, I probably clicked the like button by mistake. I don't care if someone agrees with me or not on any subject.

[VikingLord]

Did I go over on my bid?????

You bid 40k for a Hyundai Elantra and a trip to Montana. You deserved to lose.

Audience pressure...

[VikingLord]

What are we risking by moving on?

Other than the possibility it gets worse, not a lot.

Along those lines (and maybe you threw out some names before), but who would you be excited about if Spielman and/or Zimmer was replaced this offseason?

[Pondering Her Percy]

Lots of teams had injuries this season. The actual teams loaded with talent got by with the other pieces they had in place, the Vikings went 7-9 despite only playing 7 games against teams with a winning record.

Ehhh, let not act like these injuries were no big deal. Name me one team in the NFL that lost FOUR out of the five best players on their defense. And that also had inexperienced rookies starting all year at corner. You can't, dont even bother trying. And dont bother going there with the whole "winning record" garbage. It's your favorite argument. The 0-13 Jets beat two teams that are currently still in the playoffs. That alone shows your winning record argument doesnt mean shi* in the end. Anybody can beat anybody on any given day.

I can go back to prior to 2019 and point to multiple threads where you were 100% on board with letting Barr walk in FAs. Now he is a massive part of this defense? Hunter being out was indeed a HUGE part of our defense struggling and it is almost like this team isn't so loaded with talent that we can afford to miss him. We had pretty much everyone for game 1 but Hunter, and the D looked then like it did in week 17.

I was 100% on board for letting Barr walk due to price tag and I also wanted to draft Vosean Joseph who ended up flopping anyways. However, this season not having Barr showed me how vital he is to this defense. Barr has missed games before, Wilson has filled in, played decent and then Barr is eventually back. I wasnt opposed to letting him walk and drafting one to save some money. However, this was the first time he's been out for an entire season practically. Pair that with seeing how pathetic Wilson is all year against the run and then Kendricks being out, it showed just how important those two are to our defense

Do you think some of the 6th and 7th rounders will actually make the team at the start of the season this year? Any GM can say yes when another team wants to trade up with them and accumulate picks. Any team can trade a 5th this year for a 4th next. It isn't a unique skill Spielman has acquired. Whether or not it is a good thing to do is determined by whether or not we get players that make us a SB contender with the picks picked up. Success in the draft is not how many picks are acquired. Never has been.

I never said it was? That was YV trying to blow what I said out of proportion. But the reason behind mentioning the 27 picks, which I thought I made quite obvious but clearly not, was that it is basic math and this is exactly what I like about Spielman in terms of drafting.

Being the teacher I am and the fact I love teaching math, I'll even turn it into a percentage word problem for you....

Over the next 2 years, if the Chicago Bears have 14 draft picks (which is your basic, average amount of draft picks over a 2 year span) and the Minnesota Vikings have 27 draft picks (nearly double), which team has the better chance of acquiring more draft "hits" in that 2 year time span?

Answer: The Minnesota Vikings by about 48%

THAT is why I like his approach. Simply playing the odds. It's not because I think he has some type of unique skill.....

No?

Putting aside JJ, what rookie was not a liability on the field this year? The oft injured Dantzler I guess, who benefitted greatly from our first round pick leaving his guy open all game, and QBs never needing to even look his way. Cleveland was one of the worst pass blocking guards in the NFL, Gladney was one of the worst cover corners and Wonnum sucked against the run late, and was a very inconsistent pass rush to top it off.

lol dude come on....so what, the only way you're going to give a draft pick credit now is if he breaks records like Justin Jefferson did? Well I can tell you they dont come often.

And wow, you cant stand Spielman that much to the point you have to say that Dantzler was only good because Gladney left his guy open all the time? WOW is that a reach if I've ever seen one. The shi* some of you guys come up with just to try and prove a point just kills me.

https://thevikingage.com/2021/01/09/min ... e-class/5/

Actually read this write up regarding our draft class. I'm not too sure what you were looking at with many of these guys.

-Your attempt at Dantzler was just flat out poor.
-Gladney is another excellent tackler that showed a ton of improvement coverage wise in the 2nd half of the year.
-Cleveland was a big part of the turn around we had mid season. Cleveland needs to improve in pass blocking but his main problem is over setting (mainly because we stupidly have him play on the opposite side and completely different position than he's use to). I dont know what we're going to do with Reiff (trade him in the best option) but we need to get Cleveland over at LT. Not trying him there in week 17 was absolutely stupid.
-If you dont think Wonnum showed potential than I'm not sure what to tell you. Not that this is saying much but he was probably our best pass rusher for most of the year. Andre Patterson was pushing for us to draft this kid. I trust the best DL coach in the NFL's opinion over a disgruntled fans opinion on a message board. No offense but it's true.
-I dont care what anyone says about James Lynch, I'm still a fan and fault Zimmer more than anything not finding a way to at least give him some legitimate time somewhere along the line. Like even against Detroit, in a meaningless game, we continue to trot out Stephen and Johnson and give Lynch 3 total snaps....like why? The guy clearly has some pass rush ability if he's getting 13+ sacks in a season at Baylor as a DT. I mean he played 8 snaps against Seattle and sacked Wilson. Clearly Zimmer's obsession with Stephen has continued.
-Dye made some flashy plays once in a great while but wasnt overly impressed here.
-Hand was an excellent value in the 5th round if you ask me. I said early on in the year that I wasnt to see him get in the game. Of course Zim only puts him in by default like he does every rookie but I think he showed well at years end, especially for a 5th rounder.
-Beyond that I would just say Metellus looked like a solid special teamer. Not sure about safety because Harris and Smith played all year.

I am not happy the team won 7 games, which is why I want the GM and HC gone. If I were happy with this season, I would be defending the GM.

So you werent happy with the 2017 or 2019 season? Because I dont ever remember you defending Spielman...like...ever.

Ya know, just because the Vikings won 7 games doesnt mean everyone should automatically get fired. I feel like that is everyones favorite word on here. "Fired" or "cut". Because the second anyone makes a mistake or bad move, those are the words coming out of mouths.

This excuse that the Vikings were THIS close to winning 10 games ignores the fact the Vikings where THIS close to winning 1 game this season. Against Houston Watson hit his guy in the hands in the end zone for what could have been a game tying TD. Against GB a missed PI was key in ending a GB drive that could have put GB ahead to win the game. Against Chicago Foles had a guy wide open on an easy pass to put the Bears ahead and he overthrew him. Carolina was a missed FG gave us a win and we had to go to OT to beat the Jaguars. Even week 17 it took a phantom roughing the passer call to ensure a win against Detroit. The fact is, we were closer to drafting in the top 10 than we were to making the playoffs if we play the "what if" game.

No, no. You're missing the point. The Vikings won SEVEN games with a PRACTICE SQUAD defense. The only legitimate starting experience we had on that defense by years end was Smith and Harris (who didnt play well this year partly due to how much he was being asked to do).

The defense for a good chunk of the year was:

DE- Odenigbo
DT- Johnson
DT- Stephen
DE- Holmes
LB- Wilson
LB- Davis
LB- Dye
CB- Dantzler
CB- Gladney
CB- Hand/Harris
S- Harris
S- Smith

Compared to:

DE- Hunter
DT- Stephen
DT- Pierce
DE- Odenigbo
LB- Wilson
LB- Kendricks
LB- Barr
CB- Dantzler
CB- Gladney
CB- Hand
S- Harris
S- Smith

That might not look like a massive difference but it is a MASSIVE difference. No less the difference between these players. Hunter compared Jalyn Holmes (who started all year and didnt record a single sack), Todd Davis compared to Eric Kendricks, Troy Dye compared to Anthony Barr and Jaleel Johnson compared to Michael Pierce. That is the definition of "night and day". We had no pass rush, weak LBs, etc. and then to top it off, you're leaving your corners who have never played an NFL down prior to this season on an island.

So like I said, a practice squad defense and they still won 7 games. It's not like this defense was healthy and playing terrible this year and we have to start up a rebuild. With those guys back in the fold, they win those tight games no doubt. This team probably had no right winning 7 games this year given what they had on defense by years end. Yet they still did. Adding those players back on the team adds more wins and more wins results in playoffs.

[YikesVikes]

The classic reading what you want to read comment.

Yeah I neglected to mention we missed the playoffs despite an extension?

1.) Not sure why I had to mention that the playoffs were extended when clearly everyone knows that.
2.) You failed to read the part where I said we lost 3 games by a total of 5 points in those first 9 games WITH a depleted defense. Not a defense that just wasnt good, a defense that was drastically effected by injuries to top players and inexperienced rookies. If they close those 3 games, the Vikings are sitting at 7-2 after 9 games.
3.) So now that the playoffs are changed, next time the Vikings get in as the 7th seed are you not going to count it because in the old playoffs they would've missed it? The fact that it's no longer a 6 team playoff is irrelevant. The NFL changed the rule and that's how it's going to be for the foreseeable future.

As for the Saints....they also had a Hall of Fame QB and went 7-9 and missed the playoffs 3 years in a row ('14-'16). So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there. No less it shows me how little you pay attention to the rest of the league. The Saints offense was pretty terrible while Brees was out. Their defense was keeping them in games. They were up in the high 300 to mid-400 range of total yards per game. When Hill took over and Brees was out, they dropped into high 200-300 range. So like I said, if you remove those players from those top players from their defense, there isnt a shot in hell they make playoffs. Literally no chance. Their defense is what got them as far as they did. They are one of the best defenses in football right now.

Look at the 49ers as an example. A team that was decimated by injuries and missed the playoffs just one year after they made the SB. The hell with the saints, this was literally the best team in the NFC heading into this season. Is anyone criticizing John Lynch and Shanahan for not providing enough depth? Or drafting a bunch of busts? No.

As for the Barr comment, it screams desperation with your argument. Talk about someone neglecting to mention something. You are saying in your comment above that we couldnt make the playoffs because we lost Anthony Barr. Umm....no. This defense couldnt stop anyone because they lost Barr, Hunter, Pierce opted out, Kendricks was out the last 1/4 of the season and the CB room was filled with young inexperienced rookies. We didnt just "lose Barr"

And then you follow it up with, we have "no depth". Your spectrum is so far out of whack right now it's not even funny.

All I'm hearing and what is being implied is the Vikings practically wouldnt have made the playoffs anyways with all those guys on defense, our team just sucks, we have no depth, we drafted a bunch of busts, Kirk Cousins sucks, Zimmer cant get it done, Spielman cant get it done...the Vikings are an absolute mess.

.....wow, does that put it into perspective anymore about how ridiculous you sound?

"Kirk Cousins sucks, Zimmer cant get it done, Spielman cant get it done...the Vikings are an absolute mess. "

No one said any of this and you are proving that your stance is from an emotional stance and not an objective one. We are saying that Spielman can be replaced. I would like him replaced as I don't think he is great at his job. I think he is average. I think Zimmer should be replaced as I think a defensive head coach puts your team at a disadvantage (constant change to offensive play-callers and multiple offenses) . What does this have to do with your inability to say Barr and Wayne is a disappointment based on where they was drafted?

What happened to the 49ers was that they loss their QB, their RB, their Wrs, their TE and multiple people on defense. What happened to them, didn't happen to us. We lost an average LB and our Stud DE. They lost almost their entire DL and offense. You're reaching Mr. Fantastic.

Now we are doing the "if" dance. If we had all our players we would have won. If this, if that. We have lost to many a bad team at full strength and there is no reason to "assume" that having Hunter and Barr would have made us win any of those games. Maybe, a backup player notices something on film and stopped a run that Barr or Hunter wouldn't have; saving a TD. Who knows. Let's stay in the land of What Happened.

You are already projecting how great Pierce is on this team. That's laughable. He has yet to play one snap on this team. Barr was easily replaced by Wilson. I know it hurts your feelings but it's true. Wilson outplayed Barr's best season this year. Wilson has plenty of flaws in his game (misses more tackles than I like for my LB and isn't great in coverage) but so does Barr. When all said and done he is more IMPACTFUL and doesn't disappear for games at a time.

I'm tried of the back and forth. You will #### talk Speilman 1 week after he is let go, just like you #### talk all the ex-vikings. As long as they have on the purple, you will be a staunch defender of them. When Barr is gone, this year or next. You will change your tune about him and say how overrated he was. I'm sure you were talking #### about him when he signed with the Jets. Whoever we sign this year, will be amazing. Whoever we let go, will be trash. You just keep on Purpling.

[Pondering Her Percy]

You think Aaron Donald and Zack Martin aren't locks for the Hall of Fame? Lol. Our GM passed on 2 HOFers in the 1st round to draft Barr.

Hall of fame talk for NFL players doesnt start until their mid 30's. These guys are like 28 and you're saying they are HOF locks

No matter what you say, it was a mistake. I don't care if 20 other GMs made the same mistake. You seem incapable of saying Drafting Barr was a mistake.

Uhhh, because I dont believe it was? Why would I call it a mistake when I dont think it was. Hell, nobody has called it a mistake besides you so what does that tell you?

You seem incapable of saying this GM makes any mistakes. You should look deep inside and ask yourself why?

Ehhhhh! Wrong! I literally said it in this thread as well as a million other times on here that Spielman has made plenty of mistakes. Dont try and twist my words around to benefit your argument.

Also, I probably clicked the like button by mistake. I don't care if someone agrees with me or not on any subject.

ok you keep telling yourself that man!

[Pondering Her Percy]

The classic reading what you want to read comment.

Yeah I neglected to mention we missed the playoffs despite an extension?

1.) Not sure why I had to mention that the playoffs were extended when clearly everyone knows that.
2.) You failed to read the part where I said we lost 3 games by a total of 5 points in those first 9 games WITH a depleted defense. Not a defense that just wasnt good, a defense that was drastically effected by injuries to top players and inexperienced rookies. If they close those 3 games, the Vikings are sitting at 7-2 after 9 games.
3.) So now that the playoffs are changed, next time the Vikings get in as the 7th seed are you not going to count it because in the old playoffs they would've missed it? The fact that it's no longer a 6 team playoff is irrelevant. The NFL changed the rule and that's how it's going to be for the foreseeable future.

As for the Saints....they also had a Hall of Fame QB and went 7-9 and missed the playoffs 3 years in a row ('14-'16). So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there. No less it shows me how little you pay attention to the rest of the league. The Saints offense was pretty terrible while Brees was out. Their defense was keeping them in games. They were up in the high 300 to mid-400 range of total yards per game. When Hill took over and Brees was out, they dropped into high 200-300 range. So like I said, if you remove those players from those top players from their defense, there isnt a shot in hell they make playoffs. Literally no chance. Their defense is what got them as far as they did. They are one of the best defenses in football right now.

Look at the 49ers as an example. A team that was decimated by injuries and missed the playoffs just one year after they made the SB. The hell with the saints, this was literally the best team in the NFC heading into this season. Is anyone criticizing John Lynch and Shanahan for not providing enough depth? Or drafting a bunch of busts? No.

As for the Barr comment, it screams desperation with your argument. Talk about someone neglecting to mention something. You are saying in your comment above that we couldnt make the playoffs because we lost Anthony Barr. Umm....no. This defense couldnt stop anyone because they lost Barr, Hunter, Pierce opted out, Kendricks was out the last 1/4 of the season and the CB room was filled with young inexperienced rookies. We didnt just "lose Barr"

And then you follow it up with, we have "no depth". Your spectrum is so far out of whack right now it's not even funny.

All I'm hearing and what is being implied is the Vikings practically wouldnt have made the playoffs anyways with all those guys on defense, our team just sucks, we have no depth, we drafted a bunch of busts, Kirk Cousins sucks, Zimmer cant get it done, Spielman cant get it done...the Vikings are an absolute mess.

.....wow, does that put it into perspective anymore about how ridiculous you sound?

"Kirk Cousins sucks, Zimmer cant get it done, Spielman cant get it done...the Vikings are an absolute mess. "

No one said any of this and you are proving that your stance is from an emotional stance and not an objective one. We are saying that Spielman can be replaced. I would like him replaced as I don't think he is great at his job. I think he is average. I think Zimmer should be replaced as I think a defensive head coach puts your team at a disadvantage (constant change to offensive play-callers and multiple offenses) . What does this have to do with your inability to say Barr and Wayne is a disappointment based on where they was drafted?

What happened to the 49ers was that they loss their QB, their RB, their Wrs, their TE and multiple people on defense. What happened to them, didn't happen to us. We lost an average LB and our Stud DE. They lost almost their entire DL and offense. You're reaching Mr. Fantastic.

Now we are doing the "if" dance. If we had all our players we would have won. If this, if that. We have lost to many a bad team at full strength and there is no reason to "assume" that having Hunter and Barr would have made us win any of those games. Maybe, a backup player notices something on film and stopped a run that Barr or Hunter wouldn't have; saving a TD. Who knows. Let's stay in the land of What Happened.

You are already projecting how great Pierce is on this team. That's laughable. He has yet to play one snap on this team. Barr was easily replaced by Wilson. I know it hurts your feelings but it's true. Wilson outplayed Barr's best season this year. Wilson has plenty of flaws in his game (misses more tackles than I like for my LB and isn't great in coverage) but so does Barr. When all said and done he is more IMPACTFUL and doesn't disappear for games at a time.

I'm tried of the back and forth. You will #### talk Speilman 1 week after he is let go, just like you #### talk all the ex-vikings. As long as they have on the purple, you will be a staunch defender of them. When Barr is gone, this year or next. You will change your tune about him and say how overrated he was. I'm sure you were talking #### about him when he signed with the Jets. Whoever we sign this year, will be amazing. Whoever we let go, will be trash. You just keep on Purpling.

Again, I barely read any of this because I am done talking to you. This conversation is over. I have spent the better part of my day wasting my time arguing with you. But I will remind you one more time, do not put words in my mouth or try and twist my words to benefit your argument. I would suggest you read my posts a little closer before you speculate what I will and wont do. I'm done watching you try and gaslight everything that I say. So feel free to get lost. I'll just keep being "Mr. Fantastic" and keep on "Purpling". You can keep on liking your own posts so it looks like someone agrees with you. Whatever makes you feel better. Good day

[StumpHunter]

What are we risking by moving on?

Other than the possibility it gets worse, not a lot.

Along those lines (and maybe you threw out some names before), but who would you be excited about if Spielman and/or Zimmer was replaced this offseason?

I would really like Greg Roman as a HC to pair with a dual threat QB like Trey Lance. I also really like Daboll with what he has done with that Buffalo offense.

GM I kind of like Tony Fontenot from the Saints. I hate that organization, but they have done a really good job of finding talent the past 5 years or so.