The Bucs Stop Here

[Dmizzle0]

Aside from Bailey Kicking. You cant tell me that wasn't a poorly officiated game it was just as bad as the Cowboys game, if not worse.

[Maelstrom88]

The thing about the terrible PI call on the hail mary...it should have never come to that. Vikings should have just run out the clock and gone into the locker room. Instead they gave it back to TB. Then the clock operator screwed us. All this to set up getting hosed by the refs.

That was the truly heinous part of it. Absolutely unbelievable. That clock hit 1 second, and Brady spiked the ball about 2.5 seconds later. No wonder he's such a "master of the 2-minute drill."

There will be some who flame on me for this, but as others have said, I thought we did pretty well given the circumstances. This likely ended our slim playoff hopes, but I'm looking forward to next year. Every team in the league is going to be in trouble with the cap, but we've got a lot of young players on rookie deals who are getting a lot of experience and doing some nice things. Not consistently enough, but they'll get better.

Unless we can't find a kicker. Then we're screwed.

I completely agree. The Vikings have faced a lot of adversity this year and still were for the most part able to challenge some of the better teams in the league this year. They have a lot of promising young players and the future looks bright imo. Obviously they need to focus on offensive line, defense, and special teams this off-season. I also wouldn't mind them drafting a QB with actual promise to develop into a quality starter but I won't hold my breath for that one. It's really too bad Carlson didn't work out here. He has been good since leaving.

[Bowhunting Viking]

Aside from Bailey Kicking. You cant tell me that wasn't a poorly officiated game it was just as bad as the Cowboys game, if not worse.

150% agree man. It was just like watching Dallas Part 2: The Sequal. No doubt that the Zebras were definitely favoring Dallas and TB. When that hit on Beebe wasn't called I thought Well here we go again. And I was spot on.
I absolutely hate to see bad calls factor into a game. (Well except on the horrible no PI call in the Rams Saints game.. but NO git what they deserved there and I felt no remorse).
If you get beat fair and square, it sucks but I can handle it. But when a biased officiating crew cost you the game I get irrate.
I believe it goes back to my scarred childhood watching the Hail Mary unfold. That was absolutely horrible. It ended up with me crying, my older cousin calling on the phone and yelling GO COWBOYS when my mom handed me the phone, and then me yelling F%$k You Steve. And this was the moment my mom first heard me drop the F bomb. It was also a cool moment cause I saw the depth of my dad's fandom. Mom said something to dad about me saying it and something about punishment. I remember Dad saying Leave him alone , Steve deserved it. Brett and I are both mad so leave us alone for a while. Lol. An awesome moment.
I remember so many instances in the past that we have been really screwed. Pete Morelli always git us bad. Ron Winters always seemed to become blind and forget the rules whenever he officiated a Vikings game. So many examples.
I am really sick of it this season. It's getting ridiculous. Some people say Well it's part if the game. Well the Vikings have definitely git their Lions share of Parts this season.

[Cliff]

Were they?

They held the Bucs to 20:57 TOP. Gave up 17 first downs.

The defense didn't hold the Bucs to 20:57 as much as the offense held onto the ball that long. They had an 8:15 second drive in the 1st quarter. They had several long drives in the 1st half.

Perhaps I am being too hard on them though. They were put in pretty bad positions thanks to the kicking game.

But I think saying they can't compete with decent teams is a bit too far, at least if we're going off of what actually happened yesterday.

It's going by the entire season. They had a pretty good second game against the Packers. I'm not sure they had a good game against any other decent competition.

I also don't agree with your take on the offense. First, Zimmer isn't the OC - Kubiak is, and that Kubiak offense statistically ranks 7th in YPG. Now that doesn't prove they're awesome, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're not that good.

This is especially true given the struggles of the interior OL to start the year. Yesterday there were multiple injuries along the OL during the game, forcing Samia in and someone to shift to right tackle at one point. That against what pretty much is one of, if not the, best defensive fronts overall in the league this year. It made a difference late, especially in terms of pass blocking.

When I said Zimmer doesn't have a good grasp on running an "offense first team" I meant I don't agree with the way he seems to be calling games. It feels like he's still relying too much on the defense to hold leads rather than stepping on the gas with the offense a little more. I'm sure that's just my arm-chair coaching though. Obviously I'm just some dude with an opinion.

Anyway, my point is that the offense is the strength of the team but it doesn't seem like the overall strategy of games reflects that.

I just don't think they were brought back to earth yesterday, unless you consider the refs making and missing lots of critical, questionable calls and Dan Bailey missing lots of field goals as the definition of that. The Bucs were very fortunate to escape with a win yesterday, and if I'm a Bucs fan, I'm cringing thinking about what that team is going to do in the playoffs.

Bailey missing the FGs does highlight a weakness of the team, yeah. If the offense can't get into the end-zone, which they couldn't despite moving the ball well, they'll have to rely on what can only be described as a terrible kicking game.

I'll grant there were very questionable calls and non-calls and that could have changed things. Specifically that bogus penalty on the hail mary.

[Cliff]

I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.

I may have been a little hard on the defense given that game as a sample-size. I still think as a unit they're awful. I do see hope for the future but as far as this season and the rest of it. Just because there are understandable reasons whey they're awful (injuries, young players, etc.) doesn't mean they're not awful right now.

Letting go of Daniel Carlson was a huge mistake. It was a knee-jerk reaction that cost the team likely at least a decade with a stable kicker.

[VikingLord]

It's going by the entire season. They had a pretty good second game against the Packers. I'm not sure they had a good game against any other decent competition.

I thought they held up pretty well against the Seahawks. Pretty much held the vaunted Russell Wilson in check for most of that game.

They are not a great defense (yet), but compared to where they were to start the season I'd say they are trending in the right direction.

You also have to consider that their best defensive player was out yesterday. There was one throw Brady made early that I think Kendricks would have picked off and taken back for six. Davis was in coverage and it looked like even he could have broken on the ball if he knew where it was. Kendricks likely makes that play. He certainly doesn't give up the completion, and I also doubt he interferes with Gronk on that hail mary to end the 1st half.

[StumpHunter]

I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.

I may have been a little hard on the defense given that game as a sample-size. I still think as a unit they're awful. I do see hope for the future but as far as this season and the rest of it. Just because there are understandable reasons whey they're awful (injuries, young players, etc.) doesn't mean they're not awful right now.

Letting go of Daniel Carlson was a huge mistake. It was a knee-jerk reaction that cost the team likely at least a decade with a stable kicker.

After being cut, Carlson took a few weeks with a private kicking coach to fix his issues, something he couldn't have done if we held onto him. He then went on to be the 24th most accurate kicker in 2018, and the 30th most accurate kicker in 2019. He is now 11th, with the Raiders, but that is 2 seasons of poor kicking you would have had to live through to get to what is so far an outlier with Carlson.

Maybe if we could have stashed Carlson away on the practice squad to develop him it would have worked out, but it isn't like he immediately turned into a great kicker after leaving the Vikings.

[RandyMoss84]

I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.

I may have been a little hard on the defense given that game as a sample-size. I still think as a unit they're awful. I do see hope for the future but as far as this season and the rest of it. Just because there are understandable reasons whey they're awful (injuries, young players, etc.) doesn't mean they're not awful right now.

Letting go of Daniel Carlson was a huge mistake. It was a knee-jerk reaction that cost the team likely at least a decade with a stable kicker.

Yup, this is why I do not like Zimmer, he makes stupid decisions that backfire like this one and he should be fired for it

[RandyMoss84]

I may have been a little hard on the defense given that game as a sample-size. I still think as a unit they're awful. I do see hope for the future but as far as this season and the rest of it. Just because there are understandable reasons whey they're awful (injuries, young players, etc.) doesn't mean they're not awful right now.

Letting go of Daniel Carlson was a huge mistake. It was a knee-jerk reaction that cost the team likely at least a decade with a stable kicker.

After being cut, Carlson took a few weeks with a private kicking coach to fix his issues, something he couldn't have done if we held onto him. He then went on to be the 24th most accurate kicker in 2018, and the 30th most accurate kicker in 2019. He is now 11th, with the Raiders, but that is 2 seasons of poor kicking you would have had to live through to get to what is so far an outlier with Carlson.

Maybe if we could have stashed Carlson away on the practice squad to develop him it would have worked out, but it isn't like he immediately turned into a great kicker after leaving the Vikings.

Well, he is doing well with the Raiders now making all field goals except missing 2 so far

[Cliff]

After being cut, Carlson took a few weeks with a private kicking coach to fix his issues, something he couldn't have done if we held onto him. He then went on to be the 24th most accurate kicker in 2018, and the 30th most accurate kicker in 2019. He is now 11th, with the Raiders, but that is 2 seasons of poor kicking you would have had to live through to get to what is so far an outlier with Carlson.

Maybe if we could have stashed Carlson away on the practice squad to develop him it would have worked out, but it isn't like he immediately turned into a great kicker after leaving the Vikings.

The fact that the Vikings staff couldn't provide the same level of coaching as a private kicking coach provided in a handful of sessions isn't a feather in Zimmer's cap.

2018 was his rookie year. The Vikings cut him 2 games through it. He started with the Raiders in week 8 and went on to set a team record with 94% of his field goals made with what I have to assume was fairly minor tweaking. The guy didn't completely change his kicking style in the month between being dropped by the Vikings and picked up by the Raiders.

He took a step back in 2019 no question and went to 26th in FGs made percentage. He's currently 7th in FG% made.

That said, we can call it hindsight if we want. Either way it was a mistake in the end.

[S197]

Some of the "adversity" the Vikings are having to endure is self-inflicted. When your resources are capped, in this case by dollars, you're going to have to make tough decisions if you choose to allocate large portions of your resources to a select number of individuals. This is a driving factor as to why the Vikings have to field a rookie secondary, why guys like Dozier is starting and Samia is a backup, Holmes is our DE and why Cleveland is playing guard (I assume they drafted him to play tackle). And there will be even more tough decisions to come next year and the following.

The hope of course is that some of these new guys really step up because the team is more or less all-in on that. The only way this really works is if this draft, and probably next year's, are blockbusters. I don't necessarily think we can judge the success of this year's draft by how many rookies are currently playing, there's not much of a choice, it's how well they end up playing. I would say outside of JJ, it's very much an unknown if any of these guys pan out. It would be unfair to evaluate them with less than a season under their belts but I also think it's very premature to praise this draft as a success.

2019 looked pretty good on paper but that draft is starting to sour pretty quickly. Bradbury looks a little better right now but has yet to play anywhere near close to a 1st round center. Irv Smith could be the best pick out of that draft, he'll likely fill Rudolph's shoes next year. Mattison is a committee type RB, which is ok for a 3rd round pick. The next 9 picks are guys who have basically been cut, should be cut (Samia), or are likely career backups (Boyd, Johnson, etc.).

[808vikingsfan]

IMO, we're making too much about the missed FG's and not talking about the real issue, the offense. As I stated in another thread, the Vikings offense were positioned 4 times with a fresh set of downs in Bucs territory and yielded 0 TD's, including a 1st and goal, and a 1st and 10 at the 17. Converting any one of these would have changed the game.

[J. Kapp 11]

Some of the "adversity" the Vikings are having to endure is self-inflicted. When your resources are capped, in this case by dollars, you're going to have to make tough decisions if you choose to allocate large portions of your resources to a select number of individuals. This is a driving factor as to why the Vikings have to field a rookie secondary, why guys like Dozier is starting and Samia is a backup, Holmes is our DE and why Cleveland is playing guard (I assume they drafted him to play tackle). And there will be even more tough decisions to come next year and the following.

The hope of course is that some of these new guys really step up because the team is more or less all-in on that. The only way this really works is if this draft, and probably next year's, are blockbusters. I don't necessarily think we can judge the success of this year's draft by how many rookies are currently playing, there's not much of a choice, it's how well they end up playing. I would say outside of JJ, it's very much an unknown if any of these guys pan out. It would be unfair to evaluate them with less than a season under their belts but I also think it's very premature to praise this draft as a success.

2019 looked pretty good on paper but that draft is starting to sour pretty quickly. Bradbury looks a little better right now but has yet to play anywhere near close to a 1st round center. Irv Smith could be the best pick out of that draft, he'll likely fill Rudolph's shoes next year. Mattison is a committee type RB, which is ok for a 3rd round pick. The next 9 picks are guys who have basically been cut, should be cut (Samia), or are likely career backups (Boyd, Johnson, etc.).

Well, if this isn't a case of glass-half-empty, nothing is. Please don't take that as a put-down ... it's your right to view the Vikings' situation that way. I and a few others just don't share it. You seem to be going mostly with the eye test, which again is your prerogative. But the eyes can deceive. Just as you believe some of us overrate young players based on our biases, I would submit that you may be underrating others based on yours.

Here's an example. A lot of fans rely on PFF for rankings and grades. I don't trust their methodology, but others do, so let's go with that. I also don't have a subscription, so the information I get is a little outdated, but as of the middle of November, Garrett Bradbury ranked 4th among all centers in overall grade. That may not make him an All-Pro, but it's certainly more than "a little better right now but has yet to play anywhere near close to a 1st round center." Brian Baldinger also consistently mentions Bradbury in his breakdowns — anecdotal evidence, I realize, but I consider Baldinger an expert because he knows what Bradbury is supposed to be doing, as well as the techniques he uses to do them.

So yeah, a lot of this is hunches and beliefs and gut feels and hairs on the backs of our necks. Some of it is simply a matter of where a guy gets his information. There are biases. With that disclaimer firmly in place, here's what I believe, specifically.

Jeff Gladney and Cam Dantzler have ability. We've seen that. They're getting lots of playing time, which is highly unusual for rookie corners under Mike Zimmer. And the thing for me — they compete. Hard. Even when they get beat, they're hustling and busting their butts. But more and more over the past month, they've been in position and battling for the ball. They're making more plays every week. They still get beat on occasion, but they're starting to make plays. That's what I see. Here the deficiencies are, indeed, self-inflicted. But those deficiencies are dwindling, I believe. Look, it's just not fair to compare Jeff Gladney to 2016 Xavier Rhodes simply because they're both first-rounders. Rhodes was in his fourth year when he was owning OBJ and others in 2016. Let's not forget, he got burned constantly his first year or two, and we wondered if HE was a wasted pick.

When I watch Irv Smith, I see a stallion. A big man who can really run. He catches the ball when it's near him. He's surprisingly good after the catch for a tight end. The thing holding Smith back is that he's playing behind and icon in Kyle Rudolph (which honestly shouldn't be the case because Smith is better). Smith has also had trouble staying healthy this year. But knowing what we know about Rudloph's age, contract, etc., I can't see how anybody can look at Irv Smith and say he isn't a breakout candidate for 2021. People wonder why Kirk Cousins doesn't throw to his tight ends, like he did with Jordan Reed in Washington. Maybe it's because Kyle Rudolph just doesn't get much separation. You saw what happened when Rudy was out against TB and Kirk had two younger, faster tight ends in the game ... 9 catches for 104 yards between Smith and Conklin. I believe this will be an addition-by-subtraction thing next year when the Vikings cut ties with Rudolph. As of this year, you are correct — our deficiencies at the position are self-inflicted because Rudolph gets 80% of the snaps.

We see what Eric Wilson is doing. This is an undrafted guy who has grown and developed with some great coaching, and by playing with and learning from Kendricks and Barr. Now he's on the edge of Pro Bowl consideration.

Yes, the D-line is a mess, but I wouldn't call that situation self-inflicted. Nobody knew that Covid would hit, which means nobody knew that Michael Pierce wouldn't play. If you think that wouldn't make a difference, consider that Pierce was far better against the run in 2019 than Linval Joseph was, and we all miss Linval. Also, how could anybody know that Danielle Hunter, one of the most feared edge rushers in the game, would suffer a potentially career-ending neck injury? These things weren't self-inflicted.

Troy Dye? Meh. Haven't seen much from him that makes me think he's any better than depth. But he's playing and contributing. James Lynch, same thing. But D.J. Wonnum? Surely you see the potential in that guy. Honestly, I'm sort of baffled as to why he's hovering around 50% snaps. He played more special teams snaps against Tampa Bay than he did defensive snaps. Maybe he's still not good against the run ... but is Jalyn Holmes significantly better?

Again, you have been consistent in your view that the Vikings haven't been run very well organizationally. I don't agree, but I respect that point of view, and the fact that you've been consistent about it. But I think you have to admit that it's also going to color your opinion of individual players. And mine is colored by the fact that I think the organization is fine, and that I'm eternally optimistic by nature. I'm hoping we can see the validity in each point of view and call it a day.

[J. Kapp 11]

After being cut, Carlson took a few weeks with a private kicking coach to fix his issues, something he couldn't have done if we held onto him. He then went on to be the 24th most accurate kicker in 2018, and the 30th most accurate kicker in 2019. He is now 11th, with the Raiders, but that is 2 seasons of poor kicking you would have had to live through to get to what is so far an outlier with Carlson.

Maybe if we could have stashed Carlson away on the practice squad to develop him it would have worked out, but it isn't like he immediately turned into a great kicker after leaving the Vikings.

The fact that the Vikings staff couldn't provide the same level of coaching as a private kicking coach provided in a handful of sessions isn't a feather in Zimmer's cap.

2018 was his rookie year. The Vikings cut him 2 games through it. He started with the Raiders in week 8 and went on to set a team record with 94% of his field goals made with what I have to assume was fairly minor tweaking. The guy didn't completely change his kicking style in the month between being dropped by the Vikings and picked up by the Raiders.

He took a step back in 2019 no question and went to 26th in FGs made percentage. He's currently 7th in FG% made.

That said, we can call it hindsight if we want. Either way it was a mistake in the end.

I'll give you this ... the whole thing is very inconsistent.

Why does Zimmer cut Daniel Carlson after one bad game but keep Dan Bailey after two impossibly horrible games? Bailey has missed 7 of his last 10 kicks, including three extra points. Against Tampa Bay, he was the first kicker in 60 years to miss an extra point and 3 FGs without making a single kick. Yet the Vikings just cut their practice-squad kicker, a guy who made a 57-yarder in the 2019 preseason, and whom a lot of teams wanted to poach.

Sometimes I just want to give Mike Zimmer the old Frank Costanza to George Steinbrenner treatment (Why the hell did you trade Jay Buhner?!).

[Texas Vike]

I'll give you this ... the whole thing is very inconsistent.

Why does Zimmer cut Daniel Carlson after one bad game but keep Dan Bailey after two impossibly horrible games? Bailey has missed 7 of his last 10 kicks, including three extra points. Against Tampa Bay, he was the first kicker in 60 years to miss an extra point and 3 FGs without making a single kick. Yet the Vikings just cut their practice-squad kicker, a guy who made a 57-yarder in the 2019 preseason, and whom a lot of teams wanted to poach.

Sometimes I just want to give Mike Zimmer the old Frank Costanza to George Steinbrenner treatment (Why the hell did you trade Jay Buhner?!).

My guess is that it has to do with two things: 1) Carlson was a rookie. Bailey has a long CV of kicking successfully in the NFL. I think this makes Zimmer see Bailey's current woes as an aberration that can be fixed and that he will likely return to his norm once he does. With Carlson, on the other hand, he likely thought the kid just wasn't cut out for the NFL.
2) Maybe he learned from the Carlson situation. I mean, I kind of doubt it, but maybe. Zimmer strikes me as a set in his ways kind of guy, but I bet deep inside he knows he bungled that situation and would like a do over. This may be his do over.