Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

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VikingLord
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:28 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:41 pm
I realize that's not on Cousins, and it may not even be totally on Zimmer, since Kubiak calls the plays. But you just KNOW Zimmer's "play not to lose ... let's run out the clock" mindset played into this.

Maybe the right answer is that we didn't NEED Cousins to do anything more than he did, but if we'd have ALLOWED him to, he might have put the game away for us.
I'm kind of a fan of the "go with what's working" approach.

As you noted, they were running it down their throats that whole drive. They needed 6 inches for a 1st down that would have iced the game.

Could surprising them with a pass have worked in that situation or on the prior play? Maybe. But it probably wasn't necessary when a QB sneak on that 4th down play would have done the trick.

All I'm trying to get to in my responses in this thread is that Cousins wasn't outplayed in that game by Wilson. That doesn't make him a better QB overall than Wilson. That doesn't mean I'd take him over Wilson if I had a choice. It just means that Cousins played well enough to win, and, in that particular game, at least as well as, if not better than, Wilson.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:06 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:28 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:41 pm
I realize that's not on Cousins, and it may not even be totally on Zimmer, since Kubiak calls the plays. But you just KNOW Zimmer's "play not to lose ... let's run out the clock" mindset played into this.

Maybe the right answer is that we didn't NEED Cousins to do anything more than he did, but if we'd have ALLOWED him to, he might have put the game away for us.
I'm kind of a fan of the "go with what's working" approach.

As you noted, they were running it down their throats that whole drive. They needed 6 inches for a 1st down that would have iced the game.

Could surprising them with a pass have worked in that situation or on the prior play? Maybe. But it probably wasn't necessary when a QB sneak on that 4th down play would have done the trick.

All I'm trying to get to in my responses in this thread is that Cousins wasn't outplayed in that game by Wilson. That doesn't make him a better QB overall than Wilson. That doesn't mean I'd take him over Wilson if I had a choice. It just means that Cousins played well enough to win, and, in that particular game, at least as well as, if not better than, Wilson.
Definitely agree with you on all points regarding Wilson vs. Cousins.

Wilson is a far, far superior quarterback to Cousins.

Wilson did not outplay Cousins in last week's game. In fact, I'd say Cousins was mostly better. The last drive certainly helps Wilson's cause, but Cousins played pretty well.

Question for you. As a fan of "go with what's working," what did you think of the jet sweep to Adam Thielen on third down?
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:51 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Question for you. As a fan of "go with what's working," what did you think of the jet sweep to Adam Thielen on third down?
Yeah, that call surprised me a bit, mostly because I thought it got a little cute. I think Kubiak was trying to throw a wrinkle at the Seahawks, but in order to work that play requires the backside defenders to bite and/or fail to recognize the sweeping WR and they didn't do it. I honestly thought Thielen was going to be tackled well short of the sticks. That he almost got the first down there was pretty impressive on his part because there really wasn't anything there and he took it all the way out to the edge.

My preference on that 3rd down would have been to have Mattison run it to the left side behind Reiff and Dozier, probably with a lead by Ham and/or the Vikings best blocking TE out there. He's such a powerful north-south runner that if he has a crease (and nobody is taking his legs out) he's good for 3-4 yards and sometimes more. So keep going to the stronger side of the Vikings line and let Mattison do what he does best.

I thought the same on the 4th down play. While I think a QB sneak was the best call there, it is getting cute to run it right when the better run blockers on the line are on the left.

If Kubiak wanted to get really cute on that 4th down, hand it to Mattison, have him lateral back to Cousins, and hit the single receiver the Vikings send into the endzone to win the game. I can't imagine whoever the Vikings send on the route wouldn't be wide open on a play like that as everyone on the Seahawks would bite on the run fake, especially if they sent Ham out or slipped one of their less heralded TEs into the route.

Moral of the story - if you're going to get cute, go full-on cute. Don't half-a$$ it. :)
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:00 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:28 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:41 pm
I realize that's not on Cousins, and it may not even be totally on Zimmer, since Kubiak calls the plays. But you just KNOW Zimmer's "play not to lose ... let's run out the clock" mindset played into this.

Maybe the right answer is that we didn't NEED Cousins to do anything more than he did, but if we'd have ALLOWED him to, he might have put the game away for us.
I'm kind of a fan of the "go with what's working" approach.

As you noted, they were running it down their throats that whole drive. They needed 6 inches for a 1st down that would have iced the game.

Could surprising them with a pass have worked in that situation or on the prior play? Maybe. But it probably wasn't necessary when a QB sneak on that 4th down play would have done the trick.

All I'm trying to get to in my responses in this thread is that Cousins wasn't outplayed in that game by Wilson. That doesn't make him a better QB overall than Wilson. That doesn't mean I'd take him over Wilson if I had a choice. It just means that Cousins played well enough to win, and, in that particular game, at least as well as, if not better than, Wilson.
Both played defenses that have struggled all year to stop the pass. They both threw bad picks that impacted the games outcome significantly, but where I give Wilson the edge in that game is his team scored more points with him at the helm for one thing, statistically Wilson was much better, and Wilson didn't have a fumble to go with his pick that put the Vikings in scoring position. Plus Cousins had a rushing game that put up 200 yards while Wilson was working with a rushing attack that didn't break 100 (once you take out Wilson's 58 rushing yards, another plus for Wilson for Wilson btw).

I wouldn't say Wilson outplayed Cousins, but Wilson was the better QB in that game by a significant margin.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:59 pm

I've always wondered why teams don't have a 4th and inches specialist. Are you telling me CJ Ham at QB can't sneak the ball 5 inches? The dudes legs are massive. Hell, up the ante and put Rashod Hill at FB to give him an extra shove.

You can only fit so many DL in this space. Both A gaps and over the nose. By the time the LB gets there the play is already over.

The biggest issue is a clean snap but it seems like something you could work on in practice.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:03 pm

Samia did not practice today, could we finally see Cleveland? Zimmer also hinted Lynch may get more looks.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by Passepartout » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:22 pm

Yeah as the Vikings need to know it is not over until it is over. And that really had they go over in the fourth and inches there in a specialist. Could change things.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:00 pm
...statistically Wilson was much better, and Wilson didn't have a fumble to go with his pick that put the Vikings in scoring position.

...

I wouldn't say Wilson outplayed Cousins, but Wilson was the better QB in that game by a significant margin.
I don't necessarily agree with you that statistically Wilson was much better. Yes, he didn't fumble in addition to his pick, but it wasn't like Cousins just dropped the ball on that fumble. His arm was hit, which means his protection broke down.

Wilson also took 4 sacks for -27 yards while Cousins took 3 for -1 yard. Cousins had a 5.9 YPA compared to Wilson's 5.1. Wilson ended up with 190 passing yards for the game, with a big chunk of those coming on that last drive.

There is just nothing statistically to support that Wilson was "much better" in that game. I'll accept roughly equal, but even that is a stretch.

Now if we're talking overall, I agree with you, but I don't think that is what we're talking about.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:00 pm
...statistically Wilson was much better, and Wilson didn't have a fumble to go with his pick that put the Vikings in scoring position.

...

I wouldn't say Wilson outplayed Cousins, but Wilson was the better QB in that game by a significant margin.
I don't necessarily agree with you that statistically Wilson was much better. Yes, he didn't fumble in addition to his pick, but it wasn't like Cousins just dropped the ball on that fumble. His arm was hit, which means his protection broke down.

Wilson also took 4 sacks for -27 yards while Cousins took 3 for -1 yard. Cousins had a 5.9 YPA compared to Wilson's 5.1. Wilson ended up with 190 passing yards for the game, with a big chunk of those coming on that last drive.

There is just nothing statistically to support that Wilson was "much better" in that game. I'll accept roughly equal, but even that is a stretch.

Now if we're talking overall, I agree with you, but I don't think that is what we're talking about.
His arm was hit because he didn't notice the 300 pound defensive end a foot to his right and exposed the football to him. That is on the QB.

I think it is good that you included the sack yards in these QBs totals, but in this game, when 2 of the 3 sacks on Cousins resulted in fumbles, it is a bit unfair to Wilson since strip sacks that result in a turnover don't result in any sack yardage. In essence you are punishing Wilson for not turning the ball over here.

You also didn't take into account rushing yards, which is really unfair to Wilson since he was his team's leading rusher.

The actual numbers:
Wilson
Passing yards: 219
Passing TDs: 3
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 0
Rushing yards: 58
YPA: 6.78
AY/A: 7.25
Passer rating: 100.7

Cousins
Passing yards: 249
Passing TDs: 2
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 2
Rushing yards: 2
YPA: 6.38
AY/A: 6.26
Passer rating: 92.8

Cousins has Wilson beat on total passing yards because he threw the ball more, Wilson has Cousins beat on total yards. Outside of that Wilson has him beat in ever single statistic, including turnovers, TDs and YPA, which are by far the most important factors for a QB. It isn't debatable, in Wilson's worst game of the season he played better than Cousins in one of his best. This, despite no run game to support him and Cousins playing with a rushing attack that went for 200 yards.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by FredJohnson22 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:01 am

I thought of this game as the "1st regular season game." There are LOT of young guys at important positions that didn't have much offseason and no preseason to get coached up. I'm very much looking forward to the Vikes getting a lot better very soon.
Also, we lost to 2 teams that were in conference championship games last year and every team we've played this year, made the playoffs last year. (I know it's a new year.)
I think the Vikes bounce back - not sure how much or if it'll be enough to make the playoffs though.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by FredJohnson22 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:06 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:03 pm
Samia did not practice today, could we finally see Cleveland? Zimmer also hinted Lynch may get more looks.
What is the rule about DNP and ruling a guy out now?
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:22 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
His arm was hit because he didn't notice the 300 pound defensive end a foot to his right and exposed the football to him. That is on the QB.
His arm wasn't hit because the protection broke down and allowed that 300 pound defensive end to get close enough to him to hit it?
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
You also didn't take into account rushing yards, which is really unfair to Wilson since he was his team's leading rusher.

The actual numbers:
Wilson
Passing yards: 219
Passing TDs: 3
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 0
Rushing yards: 58
YPA: 6.78
AY/A: 7.25
Passer rating: 100.7

Cousins
Passing yards: 249
Passing TDs: 2
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 2
Rushing yards: 2
YPA: 6.38
AY/A: 6.26
Passer rating: 92.8
I think it is helpful to show where I pulled my stats for this game. I got them from https://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401220367

You aren't offsetting the passing yards with yards lost due to sacks, which is fine.

It still doesn't change my mind about the relative play between the two QBs in that particular game. A big chunk of Wilson's numbers came on that final drive. I don't discount the numbers because they came on that final drive, but basically the Seahawks were in a desperate situation there because Wilson hadn't exactly lit it up prior to that point.
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
Cousins has Wilson beat on total passing yards because he threw the ball more, Wilson has Cousins beat on total yards. Outside of that Wilson has him beat in ever single statistic, including turnovers, TDs and YPA, which are by far the most important factors for a QB. It isn't debatable, in Wilson's worst game of the season he played better than Cousins in one of his best. This, despite no run game to support him and Cousins playing with a rushing attack that went for 200 yards.
I get it. You don't like Cousins and you take every opportunity to point out where you think he falls short.

And on the balance, I agree that in terms of average play and career numbers, Cousins doesn't hold a candle to Wilson.

But I still disagree that Wilson demonstrably outplayed Cousins in that last game. Contrary to what you're claiming, the numbers do not support that statement.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:28 pm

FredJohnson22 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:01 am
I thought of this game as the "1st regular season game." There are LOT of young guys at important positions that didn't have much offseason and no preseason to get coached up. I'm very much looking forward to the Vikes getting a lot better very soon.
Also, we lost to 2 teams that were in conference championship games last year and every team we've played this year, made the playoffs last year. (I know it's a new year.)
I think the Vikes bounce back - not sure how much or if it'll be enough to make the playoffs though.
Skol!
I think it is likely things will improve as the season goes on. The offense is capable of putting up points (provided Cook stays healthy), although the interior of the OL is unlikely to substantially improve as the season goes on.

But I think the most likely aspect of the team to improve as the season wears on will be the defense, specifically the secondary, as the young corners mature and gain experience.

I also doubt it will be enough to make the playoffs, and if by some miracle they do make the playoffs I think their time there will be very short, but I think they'll be competitive throughout the year with most of their opponents and will give more "good" teams like Seattle some real scares.

I still think this is a 5 win team, but I could see them getting as many as 8 wins if things start to go their way. Things starting to go their way must include a win at home against a reeling Falcons team.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:11 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:22 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
His arm was hit because he didn't notice the 300 pound defensive end a foot to his right and exposed the football to him. That is on the QB.
His arm wasn't hit because the protection broke down and allowed that 300 pound defensive end to get close enough to him to hit it?
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
You also didn't take into account rushing yards, which is really unfair to Wilson since he was his team's leading rusher.

The actual numbers:
Wilson
Passing yards: 219
Passing TDs: 3
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 0
Rushing yards: 58
YPA: 6.78
AY/A: 7.25
Passer rating: 100.7

Cousins
Passing yards: 249
Passing TDs: 2
Ints: 1
Fumbles: 2
Rushing yards: 2
YPA: 6.38
AY/A: 6.26
Passer rating: 92.8
I think it is helpful to show where I pulled my stats for this game. I got them from https://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401220367

You aren't offsetting the passing yards with yards lost due to sacks, which is fine.

It still doesn't change my mind about the relative play between the two QBs in that particular game. A big chunk of Wilson's numbers came on that final drive. I don't discount the numbers because they came on that final drive, but basically the Seahawks were in a desperate situation there because Wilson hadn't exactly lit it up prior to that point.
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 am
Cousins has Wilson beat on total passing yards because he threw the ball more, Wilson has Cousins beat on total yards. Outside of that Wilson has him beat in ever single statistic, including turnovers, TDs and YPA, which are by far the most important factors for a QB. It isn't debatable, in Wilson's worst game of the season he played better than Cousins in one of his best. This, despite no run game to support him and Cousins playing with a rushing attack that went for 200 yards.
I get it. You don't like Cousins and you take every opportunity to point out where you think he falls short.

And on the balance, I agree that in terms of average play and career numbers, Cousins doesn't hold a candle to Wilson.

But I still disagree that Wilson demonstrably outplayed Cousins in that last game. Contrary to what you're claiming, the numbers do not support that statement.
I actually said above I wouldn't claim Wilson outplayed Cousins, just that he had a better game based on the numbers, the points scored and the win.
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Re: Vikes/Seahawks post-game thoughts

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:15 pm

I mentioned earlier in this thread that to really know how well a QB does at the end of close games, you would need to know the percentage of successful comebacks they have lead when given the opportunity.

I now have that number, and boy does Cousins look bad in comparison to the rest of the league:

https://purplepainforums.com/thread/383 ... lTo=178196

For those of you who don't want to click, Cousins has a 6% success rate when given the opportunity to win it in the 4th. That is 21% lower than the next guy on the list and 49% lower than Wilson who is #1.

1-16-1 in that spot.
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