So Adrian was not worth the money?J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:24 amYeah, I've been fairly outspoken that we shouldn't pay big bucks to a running back. But I've come to grips with the fact that it's probably going to happen with Cook. And as I said before, if it does, I'll continue being a big Dalvin Cook fan. It's not how I would do things, but I'm not in charge.
Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
So if we are going to be paying big bucks for a running back...Why are we paying big bucks for a passing QB
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
This has been dealt with already. First of all every QB in the NFL is a passing QB. Second of all no matter if you have the best running game in the league you still want a great passing game. They are in no way, shape, or form exclusive of each other.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
DALVIN COOK
RB, MINNESOTA VIKINGS
NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reports Vikings RB Dalvin Cook "broke off" contract talks with the team and will focus on preparing for Week 1.
Cook will apparently ride out the final year of his rookie deal and resume contract talks with the Vikings after the season. To reach free agency, Cook must play at least six games this season, but he has explicitly said he's preparing for Week 1 and pushed back on reports that he planned to hold out in 2020. Alexander Mattison remains a high-upside insurance pick in the early double-digit rounds just in case Cook has a change of plans or if Cook's shoulder acts up again. For now, Cook belongs in the back half of the first round as a true bell cow back.
RELATED: Alexander Mattison
SOURCE: Tom Pelissero on Twitter
Aug 19, 2020, 1:31 PM ET
RB, MINNESOTA VIKINGS
NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reports Vikings RB Dalvin Cook "broke off" contract talks with the team and will focus on preparing for Week 1.
Cook will apparently ride out the final year of his rookie deal and resume contract talks with the Vikings after the season. To reach free agency, Cook must play at least six games this season, but he has explicitly said he's preparing for Week 1 and pushed back on reports that he planned to hold out in 2020. Alexander Mattison remains a high-upside insurance pick in the early double-digit rounds just in case Cook has a change of plans or if Cook's shoulder acts up again. For now, Cook belongs in the back half of the first round as a true bell cow back.
RELATED: Alexander Mattison
SOURCE: Tom Pelissero on Twitter
Aug 19, 2020, 1:31 PM ET
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Cousins is different from Keenum in this regard how?StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:36 am They didn't do that because they knew when Case faced a great team, one that would force him to put up a lot of points against a good defense, he was never going to get it done. His raw production would have been there with the rest of the top 10 QBs, but it would have been because of the system, and when that system broke down, he would not have gotten the job done like a true top 10 QB could.
You mean like Cook was effective when the Vikings needed him to be against San Fran in the playoffs?StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:36 am The same is true for a RB who might get 1K yards on the season in Kubiak's system, but when that system breaks down, he isn't going to be effective in individual games the Vikings need him to be effective in. On the whole he isn't much different than a great RB in the same system, but when you break it down by game you see the great RB carrying the offense when the passing game struggles, and the okay RB never doing that. It is the difference between a couple of wins a season and a couple of close losses.
It's debatable that Cook can consistently be that RB for a single season, much less the next 3 seasons.StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:36 am I think it is debatable that Cook can consistently be that RB for the next 3 seasons
Well, they still haven't paid Cook yet so the jury is still out on your claim.StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:36 am Kubiak understands that, and paid his great RBs when he had them despite his system getting a lot out of mediocre backs. There is a reason for that.
Last edited by VikingLord on Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Apology not accepted, but thanks for your condescension nonetheless.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm Viking Lord my apologies to you, but I think your argument is ridiculous.
Have you heard of a team called the 2017 Vikings who managed to get to the NFC Championship game with their 3rd string backup QB?VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm Teams pay a lot of money to the QB. That in no way stops them from being run first teams. Also even if they are run first teams they want to have the best passer possible when they do pass. Have you heard of a team called the Tennessee Titans?
Here's my response to your opinion - teams may indeed pay a lot of money to the QB. Good teams, the sort of teams that actually compete for championships, align their contracts with a plan. They don't just pay a guy top dollar to take snaps and throw screens. Well, apparently some of them do according to you and others here.
That's a fantastic observation.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm They have the NFL's leading Rusher. They are a run first team. The QB is getting $32 million a year. The RB Henry just signed for $12.5 million. The QB is making nearly 3 times what the RB is making.
How about another one?
The Titans haven't won nor competed for a championship while paying their QB top dollar and dolling out big bucks to Henry.
Nor will they.
That's an opinion, of course.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
So you're comparing Wilson to Cousins? You think Cousins is good enough to extend plays and cover up a lot of the line's deficiencies (assuming you concede that the Vikings OL has similar deficiencies to cover)?S197 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:08 pmAbsolutely. The best example of this is probably Seattle. They can easily run 40+ times a game but you just can’t sleep on Wilson. And their OL was absolutely awful a few years back but they were able to get it to a point where run blocking was decent, pass blocking was still sub par. But Wilson is so good, he can extend plays and cover up a lot of the line’s deficiencies.VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:34 am Even in a run first offense, the passing attack needs to be good enough to keep defenses off balance and honest . If they always put 8 men in the box to stop the run and the QB can’t take advantage of that, it’s a huge problem
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
The market doesn't dictate that teams pay top dollar for average production regardless of the position, much less at QB.RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:58 pmBecause that is the market and is an more important position than running back
The 2017 Vikings got plenty of production out of a 3rd string QB who quite honestly did an overall better job of extending plays and making big passing plays than Cousins has done and he did it for a fraction of the cost. The Vikings could have kept said QB around the following year for a fraction of the cost. Maybe he wouldn't have done as much as Cousins has in subsequent years, but it's a long shot to claim that a team can only get acceptable passing production by paying premium dollars based on that single recent example alone.
The Vikings did not, and do not, need to pay top dollar to Cousins to field a respectable or even potent passing attack.
Along those lines, I doubt they need to pay top dollar to Cook to field a respectable or even potent running attack.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
OK no apologies to you, but I still think your arguments are ridiculous. Teams don't have to go low on RBs if they go strong on QB or vice versa. How much or how little our QB is making has nothing to do with how much we should or shouldn't pay our RB. So freaking what if Tennessee didn't win the SB. It wasn't the fault of either Tannehill or Henry. If all their players performed like those two Tennessee would have been SB champs easy and they came pretty close as it was.VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:52 pmApology not accepted, but thanks for your condescension nonetheless.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm Viking Lord my apologies to you, but I think your argument is ridiculous.
Have you heard of a team called the 2017 Vikings who managed to get to the NFC Championship game with their 3rd string backup QB?VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm Teams pay a lot of money to the QB. That in no way stops them from being run first teams. Also even if they are run first teams they want to have the best passer possible when they do pass. Have you heard of a team called the Tennessee Titans?
Here's my response to your opinion - teams may indeed pay a lot of money to the QB. Good teams, the sort of teams that actually compete for championships, align their contracts with a plan. They don't just pay a guy top dollar to take snaps and throw screens. Well, apparently some of them do according to you and others here.
That's a fantastic observation.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:32 pm They have the NFL's leading Rusher. They are a run first team. The QB is getting $32 million a year. The RB Henry just signed for $12.5 million. The QB is making nearly 3 times what the RB is making.
How about another one?
The Titans haven't won nor competed for a championship while paying their QB top dollar and dolling out big bucks to Henry.
Nor will they.
That's an opinion, of course.
Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Considering I didn’t even mention Cousins or the Vikings for that matter, I’m not understanding how you’re coming to that conclusion. But since you asked, no, I do not think Cousins is good enough to do either of those things.VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:58 pmSo you're comparing Wilson to Cousins? You think Cousins is good enough to extend plays and cover up a lot of the line's deficiencies (assuming you concede that the Vikings OL has similar deficiencies to cover)?S197 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:08 pm
Absolutely. The best example of this is probably Seattle. They can easily run 40+ times a game but you just can’t sleep on Wilson. And their OL was absolutely awful a few years back but they were able to get it to a point where run blocking was decent, pass blocking was still sub par. But Wilson is so good, he can extend plays and cover up a lot of the line’s deficiencies.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Sorry, I thought you were drawing a comparison there, but to be fair to me, I did ask a question and don't think I drew a conclusion.S197 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:41 pmConsidering I didn’t even mention Cousins or the Vikings for that matter, I’m not understanding how you’re coming to that conclusion. But since you asked, no, I do not think Cousins is good enough to do either of those things.VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:58 pm
So you're comparing Wilson to Cousins? You think Cousins is good enough to extend plays and cover up a lot of the line's deficiencies (assuming you concede that the Vikings OL has similar deficiencies to cover)?
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Who's the Jacka$$???????????????VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:40 pmYours wasn't an apology, but it's OK, I still think you're a jack@$$.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:32 pm OK no apologies to you, but I still think your arguments are ridiculous.
Never said they did.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:32 pm Teams don't have to go low on RBs if they go strong on QB or vice versa.
I pointed out that so far, Cousins has an extension and Cook doesn't.
For being such an expert at identifying ridiculous arguments, you must see the irony in what you just wrote.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:32 pm So freaking what if Tennessee didn't win the SB. It wasn't the fault of either Tannehill or Henry. If all their players performed like those two Tennessee would have been SB champs easy and they came pretty close as it was.
You out of the blue calling me a Jacka$$ for no reason whatsoever is the perfect description of a Jacka$$. I did nothing to you. I just think your arguments are ridiculous.
My apology to you was sincere. I meant that I was sorry to call your arguments ridiculous on this subject, because I usually see your ideas as reasonably intelligent.
I see no irony whatsoever. I think it's wise of Tennessee to pay both Tannehill and Henry well, because they make that team work.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
Well ... no, he wasn't.RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:21 pmSo Adrian was not worth the money?J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:24 am
Yeah, I've been fairly outspoken that we shouldn't pay big bucks to a running back. But I've come to grips with the fact that it's probably going to happen with Cook. And as I said before, if it does, I'll continue being a big Dalvin Cook fan. It's not how I would do things, but I'm not in charge.
Let's not forget that Adrian Peterson played 12 games or fewer in three of the 6 seasons he played under the 7-year, $100 million deal he signed in 2011. That included one game played in 2014 and two games in 2016. He also rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards in three of those six seasons. Obviously he was otherworldly in 2012 and deserved every dime (and more) of his contract's $14.5 million AAV, and he played well enough in 2015 to justify such a large payday. But not in the other four seasons.
So no ... on balance, over the life of the contract, I'd say he wasn't worth the overall money. And understand, this is coming from a serious AP fan. But we're not talking about legacy here. We're talking about contract value.
Also, consider this. During AP's first four years, he rushed for nearly 6,000 yards. He truly earned a monster deal. Dalvin Cook, in 3 seasons, has 2,104 yards. In other words, Cook has proven far less, yet he's asking for top dollar. Good for him if he gets it.
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?
I think there are other considerations besides stats as to whether you earned your contract. Teams game planned to stop AD. They would throw 8 or 9 guys in the box. He was one of if not the most hit RBs behind the LOS. The main problem was despite how good AD was, the offense had great difficulty capitalizing on defenses keying in on him. In several of those years we had no one else to really keep “defenses honest” and so his production wasn’t stellar.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:36 pmWell ... no, he wasn't.
Let's not forget that Adrian Peterson played 12 games or fewer in three of the 6 seasons he played under the 7-year, $100 million deal he signed in 2011. That included one game played in 2014 and two games in 2016. He also rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards in three of those six seasons. Obviously he was otherworldly in 2012 and deserved every dime (and more) of his contract's $14.5 million AAV, and he played well enough in 2015 to justify such a large payday. But not in the other four seasons.
So no ... on balance, over the life of the contract, I'd say he wasn't worth the overall money. And understand, this is coming from a serious AP fan. But we're not talking about legacy here. We're talking about contract value.
Also, consider this. During AP's first four years, he rushed for nearly 6,000 yards. He truly earned a monster deal. Dalvin Cook, in 3 seasons, has 2,104 yards. In other words, Cook has proven far less, yet he's asking for top dollar. Good for him if he gets it.