What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:16 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:25 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:42 pm


You think a knee injure wont change how one throws the ball? Moss missed games and he still balled out in those games.
It can, but it doesn't always.

His numbers in the 7 games in 2005 before his injury without Moss aren't all that different from what he did in Miami the season after the injury.

People forget just how bad he was in that final season after Moss left.
You're right ... I hadn't remembered that. He had 6 TD, 12 INT, and a 72.0 passer rating.

Ouch.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:52 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:44 pm


He got beat like a drum in San Fran and they stopped running the ball. Rhodes is done. He has put on too much weight. AGain none of this explains why Barr isn't a bust based on being the 9th overall pick. Those guys should be Division changers. Barr is not.
I think your definition of a bust is too far fetched..
I think you are used to mediocrity.
If you were the 9th pick in a draft and you are average.... you are a bust.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Dmizzle0 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 am

You keep switching between these two players and calling them busts and mediocre but you are clearly frustrated from this season. I bust is like Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf, someone that had absolutely no contribution on the team. But Barr and Rhodes have given us decent seasons. How can someone that us capable of locking up the best receiver in the game be a bust.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by CharVike » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:52 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 pm


I think your definition of a bust is too far fetched..
I think you are used to mediocrity.
If you were the 9th pick in a draft and you are average.... you are a bust.
Barr is far from a bust. He hit FA and was offered a ton. Average players don't get that. You don't know what a bust is. You act like every 9th selection made was a HOFer. Look it up.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:44 pm

CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:52 pm


I think you are used to mediocrity.
If you were the 9th pick in a draft and you are average.... you are a bust.
Barr is far from a bust. He hit FA and was offered a ton. Average players don't get that. You don't know what a bust is. You act like every 9th selection made was a HOFer. Look it up.
We know of two offers. Vikings and Jets. Relax. He is a bust. As a LB he has 417 career tackles in 6 seasons and 15 sacks. He is neither a pass rusher or a LB that has a nose for the ball. We paid him a lot of he must be good is a silly argument. He is ineffective and disappears for games at a time. There are about 5 guys on that defense I expect to hear an announcer congratulate on a play before Barr (Hunter, Kendricks, Smith, Griffen, Harris) and he is a LB. Our defensive scheme is set up in a way that makes his job easier and he is still invisible.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:44 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 am
You keep switching between these two players and calling them busts and mediocre but you are clearly frustrated from this season. I bust is like Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf, someone that had absolutely no contribution on the team. But Barr and Rhodes have given us decent seasons. How can someone that us capable of locking up the best receiver in the game be a bust.
I didnt say Rhodes was a Bust. The only time I mentioned him was in saying he shouldnt have been a Pro-Bowler this season. I said Barr was a bust based on where he was drafted. Barr plays like a 3rd rounder. He was drafted 9th overrall, (in front of Donald) and he isnt even the best LB on this team, let alone the league. He was a reach based on what he has given us.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:55 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:44 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 am
You keep switching between these two players and calling them busts and mediocre but you are clearly frustrated from this season. I bust is like Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf, someone that had absolutely no contribution on the team. But Barr and Rhodes have given us decent seasons. How can someone that us capable of locking up the best receiver in the game be a bust.
I didnt say Rhodes was a Bust. The only time I mentioned him was in saying he shouldnt have been a Pro-Bowler this season. I said Barr was a bust based on where he was drafted. Barr plays like a 3rd rounder. He was drafted 9th overrall, (in front of Donald) and he isnt even the best LB on this team, let alone the league. He was a reach based on what he has given us.
He plays like Danielle Hunter?

Barr is a very good LBer who is an instrumental part of the defense. If he were as average as you think he is no team would have offered him the kind of money the Jets or Vikings did. Time to reevaluate your opinion of the guy. It is way off base.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:06 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:55 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:44 pm


I didnt say Rhodes was a Bust. The only time I mentioned him was in saying he shouldnt have been a Pro-Bowler this season. I said Barr was a bust based on where he was drafted. Barr plays like a 3rd rounder. He was drafted 9th overrall, (in front of Donald) and he isnt even the best LB on this team, let alone the league. He was a reach based on what he has given us.
He plays like Danielle Hunter?

Barr is a very good LBer who is an instrumental part of the defense. If he were as average as you think he is no team would have offered him the kind of money the Jets or Vikings did. Time to reevaluate your opinion of the guy. It is way off base.
Either that or.... you guys overvalue Vikings players. He simply isnt that good. The only defense for him is that he has a massive contract. Thats the sillest defense ever. Lots of guys get big contracts and do not deserve them. Living off of a name. Barr is a prime example.

2019 - 79 combined tackles, 1.5 sacks
2018 - 55 combined tackles, 3 sacks

He doesnt pass the eyeball test, or the statistical test. Only test he passes is that he has a huge cap hit.
We've gone way off bases but the fact remains, our GM misses often on players that should be better. The last 10 years he has been horrible in the first round, despite having more 1st rounders than anyone.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:05 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:06 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:55 pm


He plays like Danielle Hunter?

Barr is a very good LBer who is an instrumental part of the defense. If he were as average as you think he is no team would have offered him the kind of money the Jets or Vikings did. Time to reevaluate your opinion of the guy. It is way off base.
Either that or.... you guys overvalue Vikings players. He simply isnt that good. The only defense for him is that he has a massive contract. Thats the sillest defense ever. Lots of guys get big contracts and do not deserve them. Living off of a name. Barr is a prime example.

2019 - 79 combined tackles, 1.5 sacks
2018 - 55 combined tackles, 3 sacks

He doesnt pass the eyeball test, or the statistical test. Only test he passes is that he has a huge cap hit.
We've gone way off bases but the fact remains, our GM misses often on players that should be better. The last 10 years he has been horrible in the first round, despite having more 1st rounders than anyone.
I think his stats are unimpressive because of how Zimmer uses and relies on Barr. If he were on a team that let Barr roam free or focus on pass rush, he'd have better stats.

Zimmer: People don’t realize how much other teams game plan for Anthony Barr
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:34 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:55 pm
Barr is a very good LBer who is an instrumental part of the defense. If he were as average as you think he is no team would have offered him the kind of money the Jets or Vikings did. Time to reevaluate your opinion of the guy. It is way off base.
I think it is fair to say that Barr is a very good LB and he is instrumental to the defense while also acknowledging that for the most part he is not a game changing player. Further, he is not really a great run defender. I won't go so far as to say he is a liability against the run, but if he has a strength it is his speed, which makes him a better pass defender and, if he finds a free lane, an effective blitzer.

To YikesVikes' point, I think it is fair to expect a player drafted 9th to become a game-changing player, whether he plays offense or defense. Barr can only play in the defensive scheme he's in, so depending on what Zimmer wants him to do we may or may not be seeing his full potential. It's possible he could be a game-changer if he were unleashed and allowed to become more of a pass rushing LB. But as it stands, I agree with YikesVikes that he is not a game-changer. He's good. Offenses may "scheme around him" as Zimmer claims, but he's not a Khalil Mack-level player.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:54 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:05 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:06 pm


Either that or.... you guys overvalue Vikings players. He simply isnt that good. The only defense for him is that he has a massive contract. Thats the sillest defense ever. Lots of guys get big contracts and do not deserve them. Living off of a name. Barr is a prime example.

2019 - 79 combined tackles, 1.5 sacks
2018 - 55 combined tackles, 3 sacks

He doesnt pass the eyeball test, or the statistical test. Only test he passes is that he has a huge cap hit.
We've gone way off bases but the fact remains, our GM misses often on players that should be better. The last 10 years he has been horrible in the first round, despite having more 1st rounders than anyone.
I think his stats are unimpressive because of how Zimmer uses and relies on Barr. If he were on a team that let Barr roam free or focus on pass rush, he'd have better stats.

Zimmer: People don’t realize how much other teams game plan for Anthony Barr
2010
Dhani Jones - 125
Keith Rivers - 77
Rey Maualuga - 75

2011
Thomas - 99
Rey - 88
Manny Lawson - 52

2012
Burfict - 122
Rey - 122

Zimmer became the DC in Cincy in 2008. I gave him a few years to get the players he wanted into his scheme and started with the 2010 season. Rivers and Rey were 2nd and 1st year players in 2010 and putting up similar stats to prime Barr. Barr's best stats do not line up with lessor LBs in Zimmer's scheme. The fact remains that our 2nd LB is putting up fewer stats in the same scheme. So it is not the scheme. (I left out Nelson who had Smith like numbers, so it is not Smith stealing tackles).
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Dmizzle0 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:19 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:34 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:55 pm
Barr is a very good LBer who is an instrumental part of the defense. If he were as average as you think he is no team would have offered him the kind of money the Jets or Vikings did. Time to reevaluate your opinion of the guy. It is way off base.
I think it is fair to say that Barr is a very good LB and he is instrumental to the defense while also acknowledging that for the most part he is not a game changing player. Further, he is not really a great run defender. I won't go so far as to say he is a liability against the run, but if he has a strength it is his speed, which makes him a better pass defender and, if he finds a free lane, an effective blitzer.

To YikesVikes' point, I think it is fair to expect a player drafted 9th to become a game-changing player, whether he plays offense or defense. Barr can only play in the defensive scheme he's in, so depending on what Zimmer wants him to do we may or may not be seeing his full potential. It's possible he could be a game-changer if he were unleashed and allowed to become more of a pass rushing LB. But as it stands, I agree with YikesVikes that he is not a game-changer. He's good. Offenses may "scheme around him" as Zimmer claims, but he's not a Khalil Mack-level player.
But that doesn't mean he's a BUST.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:20 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:19 pm
But that doesn't mean he's a BUST.
I agree - I would not characterize Barr as a bust at all. He's a good player who can play great at times. He's just not a guy teams have to scheme around IMHO.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:20 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:19 pm
But that doesn't mean he's a BUST.
I agree - I would not characterize Barr as a bust at all. He's a good player who can play great at times. He's just not a guy teams have to scheme around IMHO.
Based on being drafted 9TH OVERALL, that's a bust.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:02 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:20 pm


I agree - I would not characterize Barr as a bust at all. He's a good player who can play great at times. He's just not a guy teams have to scheme around IMHO.
Based on being drafted 9TH OVERALL, that's a bust.
That seems a little subjective. While I understand your point, I can't agree with it, at least not without some context.

Barr was drafted in 2014, 9th overall as you point out. So let's see who was drafted after him in the 1st round (I'll limit it to the 1st round as those are players the remaining NFL teams felt merited their selection and are ones the Vikings could have drafted instead of Barr).

For reference, the list of players can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NFL_Draft

A couple of names jump off the list:

- Odell Beckham to the Giants at #12
- Aaron Donald to the Rams at #13
- Kyle Fuller to the Bears at #14
- Ryan Shazier to the Steelers at #15
- CJ Mosely to the Ravens at #17


Just for context, of the players taken before the 9th pick in 2014, I'd say these stood out over time:

- Jadeveon Clowney to the Texans at #1
- Khalil Mack to the Raiders at #5

As for the remaining players drafted in the 1st round in 2014, I can't say any of them have stood out over their careers. Some had a good season or two, but most have been largely average NFL players, and some became outright busts.

Where would I put Barr in the context of his peers from the 1st round of the 2014 draft?

I'd probably say he's in the pool of the better players in the 1st round of that draft, in the notable group that includes Ryan Shazier or CJ Mosely or Kyle Fuller. He's not in the same league as Beckham, Donald, Mack or Clowney, all of whom have had a large impact on their teams.

Does that make him a bust? Does being one of the more impactful players from your draft round and year without being among the most impactful players make someone a failed pick?

I guess that's something that is more in the eyes of the beholder, but in my view a bust is someone who literally can't stay in the league past their rookie deal and makes no positive impact on the team that drafted him.

IIRC, Barr was viewed as a somewhat risky pick when he came out. He had good size and speed, but his college production didn't match his physical talents and I think that hurt his draft stock a bit. From what I can tell, those concerns were valid and translated to his performance as a pro. He's definitely capable of impacting games. He's just inconsistent in terms of how and when he does it. Some of that could be scheme as we don't know what Zimmer is asking him to do, but Barr himself seems to vary quite a bit in terms of what he does week-to-week during the season.

I still would say he's far from a bust in relative terms. In absolute terms, I can see an argument for claiming that, but I still wouldn't agree with it because he's not a failed player.
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