What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

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Mothman
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Mothman » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:10 am

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:00 am
S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm
I recall the pick being pretty universally disliked by the board even on draft day. Some guys were trying to stay positive pointing out some of his strengths but I don't recall anyone being overjoyed. It was a reach by most accounts.

Although to be fair, a lot of the board favorites like Jake Locker and Ryan Mallet didn't pan out either.
Actually, I wasn't thrilled with the pick either, mostly because I thought Spielman was drafting for need rather than BPA. There were objectively better players at other positions who were available in that draft and who could have helped the Vikings more over time.

But among the QBs available, Ponder wasn't a terrible choice.
Ultimately, the bigger failure was the mismanagement of the QB position that both led to the pick and followed it.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by mansquatch » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:24 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm


Am I the only person who thinks the Ponder pick at the time wasn't all that bad?

I mean, his college stats were pretty good. His tape showed he could make pro caliber throws. He interviewed well from what I understand and displayed a solid conceptual grasp of the pro offense. He seemed like a quality character guy and I don't recall hearing anything negative about him as a teammate or a person. He didn't flash anything special, but if you compare him to a lot of the QBs in this upcoming draft class, he'd probably be in the discussion as a 1st or high 2nd round pick.

It's always easy to see something in hindsight, but I don't think it was a terrible pick based on what was known at the time.

If Spielman could be faulted for something in that situation it was not having a viable plan at QB that forced his hand. Had he had a better plan he might have gone in a different direction in the 1st round that year. But Ponder probably would have went in the 1st round, and his career will probably end up resembling several, if not the majority of the 2020 QBs that also will be taken in the 1st round this year.
I recall the pick being pretty universally disliked by the board even on draft day. Some guys were trying to stay positive pointing out some of his strengths but I don't recall anyone being overjoyed. It was a reach by most accounts.

Although to be fair, a lot of the board favorites like Jake Locker and Ryan Mallet didn't pan out either.
That QB class was ugly all the way around. There were 12 taken and I think only Newton and Dalton are still playing. You can be mad they took Ponder over Dalton and Kaepernick, but that is about it. Dalton has been better than Ponder with AJ Green to throw to, but he has never been more than average. Kaepernick did good things in SF for a time with Greg Roman calling his plays, but that team was loaded. Then there is what he has been since then. There really wasn't much success to be had that year. Did he pick the best of what was available at 12? No. Would any of those other guys taken them to the promised land? Also a no. So does Rick suck or was it a bad year to draft a QB? You can argue they set themselves up to fail in 2011, but was that Rick's fault or Childress'?

Hindsight is 20/20 and 2011 was 9 years ago. It is probably silly to think their process hasn't changed AT ALL in that time. Given recent success drafting on both sides of the ball I'm probably inclined to think that at the very least they are better at it than they were 9 years ago. How much better remains to be seen.

FWIW, I think they extend Cousins and choose to not worry about QB for a few more seasons. Cousins doesn't make very many stupid INTs and he can make the throws. Yes he has his issues, but he also won them a road playoff game. In fact I'd probably say that in 2019 Cousins was, despite a rocky September, an asset not a liability.

Also, there is no way Zimmer is going to be in favor of blowing up the roster when he doesn't have a contract after 2020. That would basically be firing himself. If they extend him and Rick then things might be different, but that isn't how the tea leaves are reading right now.
Last edited by mansquatch on Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by CharVike » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:38 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm


Am I the only person who thinks the Ponder pick at the time wasn't all that bad?

I mean, his college stats were pretty good. His tape showed he could make pro caliber throws. He interviewed well from what I understand and displayed a solid conceptual grasp of the pro offense. He seemed like a quality character guy and I don't recall hearing anything negative about him as a teammate or a person. He didn't flash anything special, but if you compare him to a lot of the QBs in this upcoming draft class, he'd probably be in the discussion as a 1st or high 2nd round pick.

It's always easy to see something in hindsight, but I don't think it was a terrible pick based on what was known at the time.

If Spielman could be faulted for something in that situation it was not having a viable plan at QB that forced his hand. Had he had a better plan he might have gone in a different direction in the 1st round that year. But Ponder probably would have went in the 1st round, and his career will probably end up resembling several, if not the majority of the 2020 QBs that also will be taken in the 1st round this year.
I recall the pick being pretty universally disliked by the board even on draft day. Some guys were trying to stay positive pointing out some of his strengths but I don't recall anyone being overjoyed. It was a reach by most accounts.

Although to be fair, a lot of the board favorites like Jake Locker and Ryan Mallet didn't pan out either.
I wasn't on this board at the time but bringing up Locker and Mallet almost makes me roll my eyes. I liked both those guys myself. I also liked the Ponder pick. Speilman can be thrown under the bus for his QB picks I can't argue that. But I like the fact that he's trying. Look at our division. The Bears have a high 1st rounder and he sucks. The Lions have a high 1st rounder and he can't do anything but post stats in garbage time. He blows also. Those two don't even try to upgrade. I'm happy with Cousins. He needs help but they all do. We were lucky to get Cousins. Many teams were chasing. Even the Jets who had a high number 1 on the team wanted him. He beat a future HOFer in the playoffs this year. That's a great accomplishment. Pulled it out in crunch time with some great throws. I wish we had that guy Mahomes has T Hill. He's a lighting bolt and scares the crap out of teams. That opens the entire field up. We don't have a guy like that. Nothing close. Yes Adam and Diggs are good WRs but neither has teams shaking in their boots like this Hill guy. Teams can bring guys up because we don't have a guy that can blow the roof off. I liked that guy last year Drew Lock. He sucked his rookie year but was able to play. He's still has a chance. Speilman passed on that one which pissed me off. This years draft crop is weak.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by mansquatch » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:42 am

If they draft a QB I'd like to see them take a shot on a guy with a lot of arm who can make off balance throws (doesn't need to set his feet) with accuracy. That is the asset that makes Mahomes and Rogers scary. The challenge is finding a guy in the mid rounds with that attribute. I'm not sure those talents will be available outside of round 1 unless said player is highly unpolished.

I'm not saying that guy is in this draft, just speaking hypothetically.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:56 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:00 pm

I think what you are getting at is that there are lots of ways for a QB to be successful in the NFL.

I prefer the scrambling, Mahomes/Tark/Rodgers/Wilson type myself, they don't require as much talent around them to be successful and are exciting to watch. The Brees/Brady/Manning type as had a ton of success as well though. They get rid of the ball quickly, avoid costly mistakes and make the players around them better with precision and a quick release.

Big Ben and Phillip Rivers are the hold the ball forever while remaining a statue in the pocket type QB. They throw picks, take sacks and make up for it by being able to drive 80 yards in 40 seconds on 4 big pass plays.

Running QBs win more early in their careers on average than pure passers, but have shortened careers do to the number of hits they take, and the inability to pass effectively when they age and can't run as well.
I think THE most important thing to be successful in football is "Adjustments". And I don't mean only game time adjustment. I also mean roster adjustments and overall type of team adjustments. There is no blueprint to winning. There are multiple ways to get here. The NFL has always been a copy cat league. They think that XYZ has come up with a "Winning blueprint" so they all try to copy it. Just like the west coast offense of the 70's and now an athletic running QB like Mahomes.

The truth is, no matter what you are offensively, you still need at least a Good defense. I feel the QB position is the position you build your offense around. You have to realize what you have at that position or what is available. Cousins isn't a Mahomes by any stretch, but he's what they have. They have to realize that in actuality what they have at their skilled offensive positions are pretty darn good. If they put an outstanding OL on the field, this offense would be pretty darn good.

If you are lucky enough to have a WIlson or Mahomes, then, NO, you don't need the OL as much. But it's not like you can just go into a "QB's Are Us" store and say "Give me your Mahomes Model". You have to adjust your roster to what you have. And game plan accordingly. You can never try to force your team to be something they are not.

It's why I will always be as a proponent to putting a dominant OL on the field. Because then, they make every other offensive position look better. With a dominant OL, the most important quality of my QB would be what lies between his ears. Not trying to say he doesn't need to be a skilled passer, but if he's smart and accurate, it will carry you. The defense cant't stop everything. Dominant OL will allow an average running back to take over a game. And when the defense keys on the run game, it opens up the for the pass game.

That's the way I see it.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:41 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:10 am
VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:00 am


Actually, I wasn't thrilled with the pick either, mostly because I thought Spielman was drafting for need rather than BPA. There were objectively better players at other positions who were available in that draft and who could have helped the Vikings more over time.

But among the QBs available, Ponder wasn't a terrible choice.
Ultimately, the bigger failure was the mismanagement of the QB position that both led to the pick and followed it.
Totally agree. The draft should never be about meeting immediate needs. It should be about finding special talent. If that talent can fill an immediate need, fantastic, but that's just being lucky. So the situation the Vikings found themselves in with needing to fit a QB into the 12th pick in that draft was created by their own mismanagement and lack of vision at the position.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:52 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:24 am
That QB class was ugly all the way around. There were 12 taken and I think only Newton and Dalton are still playing. You can be mad they took Ponder over Dalton and Kaepernick, but that is about it. Dalton has been better than Ponder with AJ Green to throw to, but he has never been more than average. Kaepernick did good things in SF for a time with Greg Roman calling his plays, but that team was loaded. Then there is what he has been since then. There really wasn't much success to be had that year. Did he pick the best of what was available at 12? No. Would any of those other guys taken them to the promised land? Also a no. So does Rick suck or was it a bad year to draft a QB? You can argue they set themselves up to fail in 2011, but was that Rick's fault or Childress'?
I think if the GM and head coach have a solid vision of what they're looking for before an offseason starts they can go into a draft and honestly evaluate the talent in that draft against what they want at any given position. They can set out a set of criteria in a QB, for example, and then look at all the QBs available and rank them against that criteria and use that evaluation to decide if there is someone they feel is a good fit. If so, can they get him? Is it worth it to try to get him if they'd have to move up? How convinced are they that he's worth the price they'd have to pay?

And of course, that can't be done in a vacuum. They should be doing the same at every position and evaluating prospects at every position in the same way. Maybe they see a DE who is special and worth moving up to get, for example.

For me, the draft is solely about finding special talent and stocking the team. The draft is pretty random as well. Some drafts have some clear-cut special talent at certain positions and a clear-cut dearth of talent at others. Some have "deep" classes at certain positions (which really means there are a lot of players with similar strengths and weaknesses), while others have a few standouts at those positions. But the draft is like a harvest and it can't be dictated by teams no matter how bad their immediate needs are heading into it. The worst thing a GM can do is talk himself into a player based on need. Lots of guys end up drafted much higher than their tape would indicate based on that. Every time I think of the Troy Williamson pick I remember that. He had elite speed for a WR, and after the Vikings traded Moss they wanted a WR with elite speed. The fact he can't track deep balls could be brushed aside I guess. The immediate need (self-inflicted in that case) coupled with a dishonest assessment of Williamson's actual skillset resulted in a wasted pick and the need continued into future years.

That might be the worst part about making poor selections in the high rounds - the goal of those reaches is to fill the immediate need, but because the team tries to impose it's own reality on the guy they pick rather than pick the best guy, the need goes unfilled and keeps rearing its ugly head in future drafts.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:28 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:56 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:03 pm


You want to point out that Culpeppers best year was without MOss?
Culpepper's only good years was because of Moss. Without him he couldn't do anything. He was a one read and chuck guy. He wasn't a surgeon on the field picking apart defenses. Others might feel different. It's only my opinion.
Not going to argue with you but the guy threw 39 tds and 4700 yards with a banged-up Moss. Moss pulled his hammie and missed considerable time. Even when he returned he was a shell of his former self as he needed time to heal.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:31 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:51 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:34 pm


They are bust compared to where they were drafted.
A player drafted with the 9th overrall pick should be a top 30 player in the league. He's not even top 150.
so a player that makes it to the pro bowl 4 times is a bust?
Xavier Rhodes made the pro bowl this season. Are you suggesting a Pro Bowl selection is indicative of ability?
He is a bust! He is not a great player. He is adequately average. You don't draft that with the 9th pick in the draft.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by mansquatch » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:18 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:31 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:51 pm


so a player that makes it to the pro bowl 4 times is a bust?
Xavier Rhodes made the pro bowl this season. Are you suggesting a Pro Bowl selection is indicative of ability?
He is a bust! He is not a great player. He is adequately average. You don't draft that with the 9th pick in the draft.
Rhodes had a bad year, there is no denying that. However, in the post season he elevated his play and was our best Cornerback. He isn't worth his current contract, but I do not think it is certain this his career is over nor is it certain that he cannot continue to play at a competitive level. I suspect that his performance in the playoffs made it a little bit harder to just release him. We'll find out what the Vikings thing in a few weeks, what they do or do not do will speak volumes. .
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:13 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:28 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:56 am

Culpepper's only good years was because of Moss. Without him he couldn't do anything. He was a one read and chuck guy. He wasn't a surgeon on the field picking apart defenses. Others might feel different. It's only my opinion.
Not going to argue with you but the guy threw 39 tds and 4700 yards with a banged-up Moss. Moss pulled his hammie and missed considerable time. Even when he returned he was a shell of his former self as he needed time to heal.
A banged-up Moss still changed how defenses played the Vikings.

He did absolutely nothing after leaving the Vikings. If he were a great QB a lower body injury would not have turned him into complete garbage.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:42 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:13 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:28 pm


Not going to argue with you but the guy threw 39 tds and 4700 yards with a banged-up Moss. Moss pulled his hammie and missed considerable time. Even when he returned he was a shell of his former self as he needed time to heal.
A banged-up Moss still changed how defenses played the Vikings.

He did absolutely nothing after leaving the Vikings. If he were a great QB a lower body injury would not have turned him into complete garbage.
You think a knee injure wont change how one throws the ball? Moss missed games and he still balled out in those games.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:44 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:18 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:31 pm


Xavier Rhodes made the pro bowl this season. Are you suggesting a Pro Bowl selection is indicative of ability?
He is a bust! He is not a great player. He is adequately average. You don't draft that with the 9th pick in the draft.
Rhodes had a bad year, there is no denying that. However, in the post season he elevated his play and was our best Cornerback. He isn't worth his current contract, but I do not think it is certain this his career is over nor is it certain that he cannot continue to play at a competitive level. I suspect that his performance in the playoffs made it a little bit harder to just release him. We'll find out what the Vikings thing in a few weeks, what they do or do not do will speak volumes. .
He got beat like a drum in San Fran and they stopped running the ball. Rhodes is done. He has put on too much weight. AGain none of this explains why Barr isn't a bust based on being the 9th overall pick. Those guys should be Division changers. Barr is not.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Dmizzle0 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:44 pm
mansquatch wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:18 pm


Rhodes had a bad year, there is no denying that. However, in the post season he elevated his play and was our best Cornerback. He isn't worth his current contract, but I do not think it is certain this his career is over nor is it certain that he cannot continue to play at a competitive level. I suspect that his performance in the playoffs made it a little bit harder to just release him. We'll find out what the Vikings thing in a few weeks, what they do or do not do will speak volumes. .
He got beat like a drum in San Fran and they stopped running the ball. Rhodes is done. He has put on too much weight. AGain none of this explains why Barr isn't a bust based on being the 9th overall pick. Those guys should be Division changers. Barr is not.
I think your definition of a bust is too far fetched..
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:25 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:42 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:13 pm


A banged-up Moss still changed how defenses played the Vikings.

He did absolutely nothing after leaving the Vikings. If he were a great QB a lower body injury would not have turned him into complete garbage.
You think a knee injure wont change how one throws the ball? Moss missed games and he still balled out in those games.
It can, but it doesn't always.

His numbers in the 7 games in 2005 before his injury without Moss aren't all that different from what he did in Miami the season after the injury.

People forget just how bad he was in that final season after Moss left.
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