Once in Nineteen...

[Mothman]

I can only imagine what it was like back in you and Jim's era when the Vikings were formidable and velociraptors roamed the earth

It was rough! As Raptorman pointed out, if you didn't live in Vikings territory you had to eagerly await halftime highlights and box scores for many games and sometimes, you couldn't even see them because ravenous prehistoric beasts would chase you away from the television.

It was hell.

[Mothman]

The team needs inspiration at head coach. It need dynamism. It needs someone with a strong overall vision who then hires coordinators who implement this vision. It's a step up from coordinator. A head coach can still fill the coordinator job (although that isn't ideal since that is an additional job and there is only so much time), but in doing so the head coach can't lose his vision or inspiration for the whole team. With Zimmer, he doesn't have that for the offensive side of the ball. When the Vikings released their defensive coordinator, did anyone even care? What the guy did is beyond me. It was almost a sacrificial termination, a way to shift blame from Zimmer to someone else rather than any real change in the defensive posture or direction of the team.

I agree about the lack of vision from Zimmer as head coach but comments like that about Edwards always surprise me. It seems like fans equate being a coordinator with playcalling but when you think about it, there's obviously much more to the job than that. A coordinator manages his part of the roster, contributes to developing game plans, oversees assistants, works to prepare the unit during the week, etc. Even if the coordinator isn't calling plays on game day, he's still coaching players during the week and, if he's not coordinating from a booth, is likely coaching them from the sidelines on game day.

[J. Kapp 11]

The team needs inspiration at head coach. It need dynamism. It needs someone with a strong overall vision who then hires coordinators who implement this vision. It's a step up from coordinator. A head coach can still fill the coordinator job (although that isn't ideal since that is an additional job and there is only so much time), but in doing so the head coach can't lose his vision or inspiration for the whole team. With Zimmer, he doesn't have that for the offensive side of the ball. When the Vikings released their defensive coordinator, did anyone even care? What the guy did is beyond me. It was almost a sacrificial termination, a way to shift blame from Zimmer to someone else rather than any real change in the defensive posture or direction of the team.

I agree about the lack of vision from Zimmer as head coach but comments like that about Edwards always surprise me. It seems like fans equate being a coordinator with playcalling but when you think about it, there's obviously much more to the job than that. A coordinator manages his part of the roster, contributes to developing game plans, oversees assistants, works to prepare the unit during the week, etc. Even if the coordinator isn't calling plays on game day, he's still coaching players during the week and, if he's not coordinating from a booth, is likely coaching them from the sidelines on game day.

With all due respect, where have any of you gotten information that this was some kind of sacrificial firing? Because I haven't seen it.

All reports I've read ... and trust me, I've read many -- I get push notifications from at least 12 different Vikings sources ... say that Edwards' contract reached its end, and they could not reach an agreement on a new one. He was not fired. He is also, by all reputable accounts, thought by the Vikings to be a quality coach.

Now of course the Vikings could have held the line on salary or other contract considerations as a way to force him out and change things up. But from everything I can find, George Edwards was highly respected in Minnesota and by no means fired.

[VikingLord]

I agree about the lack of vision from Zimmer as head coach but comments like that about Edwards always surprise me. It seems like fans equate being a coordinator with playcalling but when you think about it, there's obviously much more to the job than that. A coordinator manages his part of the roster, contributes to developing game plans, oversees assistants, works to prepare the unit during the week, etc. Even if the coordinator isn't calling plays on game day, he's still coaching players during the week and, if he's not coordinating from a booth, is likely coaching them from the sidelines on game day.

To be fair to Edwards, I really don't know what he did and I'm sure he did the things you describe.

But my point is, it wasn't his defense - it was Zimmer's defense. Zimmer's players. Zimmer's scheme and vision. And Zimmer's playcalling as well.

Edwards did whatever Zimmer wanted/allowed him to do I'm sure.

[VikingLord]

Now of course the Vikings could have held the line on salary or other contract considerations as a way to force him out and change things up. But from everything I can find, George Edwards was highly respected in Minnesota and by no means fired.

I base my comments on his leaving the Vikings mostly on the fact that the defense took a big step back this year despite massive investment on the part of the Vikings. Since Zimmer isn't going anywhere, it stood to reason that Edwards would take the fall as the defensive coordinator.

But I want to be clear that is speculation on my part. I did not mean to come across as starting that as a matter of fact.

[StumpHunter]

I agree about the lack of vision from Zimmer as head coach but comments like that about Edwards always surprise me. It seems like fans equate being a coordinator with playcalling but when you think about it, there's obviously much more to the job than that. A coordinator manages his part of the roster, contributes to developing game plans, oversees assistants, works to prepare the unit during the week, etc. Even if the coordinator isn't calling plays on game day, he's still coaching players during the week and, if he's not coordinating from a booth, is likely coaching them from the sidelines on game day.

With all due respect, where have any of you gotten information that this was some kind of sacrificial firing? Because I haven't seen it.

All reports I've read ... and trust me, I've read many -- I get push notifications from at least 12 different Vikings sources ... say that Edwards' contract reached its end, and they could not reach an agreement on a new one. He was not fired. He is also, by all reputable accounts, thought by the Vikings to be a quality coach.

Now of course the Vikings could have held the line on salary or other contract considerations as a way to force him out and change things up. But from everything I can find, George Edwards was highly respected in Minnesota and by no means fired.

Gotta agree. I think the Vikings would have gladly had him back, but Edwards' career was stagnating in MN. He just watched two coordinators who coached less successful units than he did, get the nod for HCing positions, while he is still the coordinator.

[mansquatch]

One suggestion I have is to completely ignore the media both locally and nationally right now. Those clowns are talking about cutting everybody and blowing it up like it would be good for the team. They only think about next year. They are lost in all the follies of amateurish fans, like Free Agency solving problems or the next draft picking being the next Peyton Manning. (And they get paid to do this...) The reality is most NFL players have a 3 year career. PERIOD. Most Free Agent signings are dumpster fire. Competing in the NFL is a team thing, and that includes coaches, managements, and players. Rookies might not even contribute much next year, the real question is which 2nd or 3rd year guy is going to turn it on?

So much garbage out there. I would remind people that if you take out the Patriots, the NFL has had a lot of different great teams year in and year out. BB is the most dominant coach in any sport ever. I think the skews the view of people that we should be that way. There is only one BB! So either find the next BB or try be the team that gets in for a quick window because that is everyone else in the league.

I disagree. That's not everyone else in the league. The Patriots have had an exceptional and historic run of success but there are other teams that have made the playoffs far more often than not over an extended period of time. Nobody else can touch their championship and Super Bowl success but Green Bay has been to the postseason 20 times in the last 27 years and has gone 2-1 in Super Bowls during that period. Seattle has been to the postseason 12 times in the last 16 seasons and played in 3 Super Bowls in that stretch.

The Ravens have been to the playoffs 8 times in 12 years and won a Super Bowl. They've won 2 in the last 20 years. The Steelers have had a bit of a dry spell lately but they've been to the playoffs 10 times in the last 16 years, played in 3 Super Bowls and won two.

In other words, it's not just the Patriots and everyone else. Maybe the extent of their success skews views a little but there have been other teams out there making the postseason frequently over extended periods of time (I didn't name that all) and reaching the Super Bowl more than once in a decade, much less 4+ decades.

My point was more about Superbowl appearances. The NFC is all over the board. AFC has consistently had 2-3 QBs constantly in that game in the last 20 years. IMO, this is a sign of an era in the NFL. The league has been dominated by 4-5 elite passers for most of the past 20 years. We are now at a point where those guys are either retired (Manning) or much less than they were. (Rogers, Brees, Big Ben, Brady). In each case these guys are now playing as a part of a team vs. being THE MAN, at least not like they were 5 or 10 years ago. None of them are in the big game this year which is likely is a sign of the times. Why that is the case is different for each but to varying degrees coaching, salary cap, rest of roster, and age are all playing roles in one way or another. Times are changing.

The rest of the teams with lots of playoff appearances are really not that dissimilar to the Vikings aside from some actually winning it. Point is that today they are all trying to break into the next tier.

Look the last two times this team has gone to the Playoffs it has won a playoff game. That puts us in good company. The issue is we've not won multiple playoff games in a single season since 1987. That is the next step assuming they can maintain a competitive roster in the face of the confines of the salary cap.

[Mothman]

My point was more about Superbowl appearances. The NFC is all over the board. AFC has consistently had 2-3 QBs constantly in that game in the last 20 years. IMO, this is a sign of an era in the NFL. The league has been dominated by 4-5 elite passers for most of the past 20 years. We are now at a point where those guys are either retired (Manning) or much less than they were. (Rogers, Brees, Big Ben, Brady). In each case these guys are now playing as a part of a team vs. being THE MAN, at least not like they were 5 or 10 years ago. None of them are in the big game this year which is likely is a sign of the times. Why that is the case is different for each but to varying degrees coaching, salary cap, rest of roster, and age are all playing roles in one way or another. Times are changing.

I see your point. They're certainly changing. Star QBs of the last 15+ years have aged and although I think those players were always part of a greater team concept, these changes represent shifting power around the NFL.

The rest of the teams with lots of playoff appearances are really not that dissimilar to the Vikings aside from some actually winning it. Point is that today they are all trying to break into the next tier.

I'd say winning the Super Bowl and making far more frequent playoff appearances actually are significant differences between those teams and the Vikings. In other words, it looks to me like those teams represent a tier the Vikings are trying to join.

Look the last two times this team has gone to the Playoffs it has won a playoff game. That puts us in good company. The issue is we've not won multiple playoff games in a single season since 1987. That is the next step assuming they can maintain a competitive roster in the face of the confines of the salary cap.

That's a step they need to take but I think the issue referenced in the title of this thread is important to taking it: they need to build teams that can actually reach the playoffs in back-to-back seasons. They need a run of division titles. I'm not saying those things have to happen in order to win it all but logically, building teams strong enough to get into the postseason 75% of the time over the course of a decade would probably improve their chances. It might lead to the Vikings making some postseason runs instead of going one-and-done or barely eeking out a win over the Saints as they've done in their last two playoff victories. Building a team like that is clearly possible within the confines of the cap so with each year it doesn't happen, we need to ask why it's not happening.

[VikingLord]

Gotta agree. I think the Vikings would have gladly had him back, but Edwards' career was stagnating in MN. He just watched two coordinators who coached less successful units than he did, get the nod for HCing positions, while he is still the coordinator.

I think that tends to happen when everyone knows you are not calling the shots.

The two OC's you mention were clearly calling the shots, and therefore could be fairly evaluated outside the organization.

Maybe leaving the Vikings is the best thing for Edwards from a career perspective. He might get a chance to shine as a coordinator under someone who allows him to actually coordinate a defense.

[mansquatch]

we need to ask why it's not happening.

Each year there have been different themes:

2014: Build Defense / AP out all year due to child abuse - Answer: Get AP Back
2015: OL falls apart / Walsh misses kick - Answer: Fix Kicker / Get better on OL
2016: OL injury disaster / Walsh gets cut / TB Injury = Answer: Get Healthy Fix Kicker (AGAIN!)
2017: Really good season / Defense melts down in NFCCG - Answer: Sign better QB / Fix Defense
2018: Sparano dies / JDF / Defense hang over early part of season - Answer find better OC
2019: Early season issue on O, Pass Defense takes step back, big game issues - Answer ?

Through all of this Zimmer has had three major issues in his tenure as Vikings Coach:

1.) Offensive Coach Hiring has been wildly inconsistent
2.) Every Year the team lays 1-2 eggs (Most NFL teams lay at least 1, even Patriots, not sure if this is normal or not for Zim)
3.) Straight up Bad Luck - Teddy Injury / Sparano Death most obvious

A distant #4: Specialist issues - IE Kicking woes - This seems to have worked itself out over the past two seasons.

However, IMO the biggest of them all is item #1.

An interesting trend on that topic: 2015 and 2017 were the only seasons where the Vikings entered the regular season with same OC / QB / OL Coach combination. 2019 is basically the next such season since we are going from Cousins / Stefanski-Kubkiak / Dennison to Cousins / Kubiak / Dennison.

If you want a reason to be optimistic about 2020, the above is a pretty good place to start. I think Items #1 and #3 are the biggest reasons we haven't seen more from Zim. If 2020 doesn't have bad luck, it could be interesting. I'm not ready to mail it in yet on this era of Vikings football although the window is closing.

[Vikings CrucifiXS]

Next. There is a whole slew of NFL head coaches who call plays for both offense and defense. Kyle Shanahan, Andy Read, Mike McCarthy, and many more. This is not out of the ordinary. I don't see how this in any way interferes with the ability of anyone on offense or defense to do their jobs.

It's a subtle difference, but the head coaches you mention do that well. Sure, they may still call plays for the offense or defense, but they fill the head coach role. I don't see that with Zimmer. I see a defensive coordinator with him. A by-the-numbers guy who understands his half of the team and has a strong vision about what that should be, but on the offensive and overall side he doesn't. He's not as bad as Childress was, but he's not much better.

I get what your saying bruv. Zimmer is a defensive guru so I can see why he's all up in that side of the ball. I wrote in a previous post that Kubiac can be his counter balance on the other side of the ball. He's coached multiple high powered offenses and won a Super Bowl, with a past his prime Peyton Manning, so he knows how to taylor an attack around his players and their limitations. That's something Zimmer has to respect just for the championship alone. Not to mention Gary is a former HC himself so him stepping up as OC may be the difference maker because GK can tell Mike to "back off because my credentials outshine yours."

[mansquatch]

It's a subtle difference, but the head coaches you mention do that well. Sure, they may still call plays for the offense or defense, but they fill the head coach role. I don't see that with Zimmer. I see a defensive coordinator with him. A by-the-numbers guy who understands his half of the team and has a strong vision about what that should be, but on the offensive and overall side he doesn't. He's not as bad as Childress was, but he's not much better.

I get what your saying bruv. Zimmer is a defensive guru so I can see why he's all up in that side of the ball. I wrote in a previous post that Kubiac can be his counter balance on the other side of the ball. He's coached multiple high powered offenses and won a Super Bowl, with a past his prime Peyton Manning, so he knows how to taylor an attack around his players and their limitations. That's something Zimmer has to respect just for the championship alone. Not to mention Gary is a former HC himself so him stepping up as OC may be the difference maker because GK can tell Mike to "back off because my credentials outshine yours."

If you look at Zimmer's history, He has been to the playoffs 50% of the time. 3 out of 6 seasons as Head Coach. In those appearances he has won a playoff game 2 of 3 times. The time they didn't win, was the Walsh missed 26yd field goal in 2015. So lets just round down for the sake of simplicity. In 2015 we were the 9th best team in NFL. In 2017 we were the 4th best team. In 2019 probably the 5th best team (In NFL, not NFC), despite having the #6 seed. IMO most of those estimates are conservative.

So just to be clear, when people are saying Zimmer should go, they are also saying there is someone out there who can take the above results and improve upon them. I get wanting that elusive SB win, but I'd be hesitant to assume that the grass is greener. Aside from winning the big game, Zimmer's grass has been pretty green.

Another offshoot of the above. If you think Spielman is a disaster, then the above results should make you love Zimmer since he is getting such elite results while hamstrung by Rick. Or if Zimmer is a disaster then you should love Rick because he has assembled such talent as to almost overcome the coaching debacle. I humbly submit that just maybe they are both pretty good at their jobs and that is why we are getting the results we see, but I'm probably a minority on this point...

To me the key question to ask is this: Do you think the 2017 and 2019 teams have the same post season record if they get to play at home? For me the answer is an unequivocal NO. So what is the path to improvement? I think Zimmer needs to figure out how to win 13+ games in the regular season. As I outlined in my previous post on this thread I think a significant culprit has been turnover and lack of continuity on the offensive coaching staff. At least in 2020 it looks like this will not be a factor.

I advise patience with this offseason. Let's see what shakes out on defense once we hit free agency. There are reasons on offense to be VERY optimistic next season about this team. Defense is murkier due to the Salary Cap issues. Let's see what happens.

[Mothman]

we need to ask why it's not happening.

Each year there have been different themes:

2014: Build Defense / AP out all year due to child abuse - Answer: Get AP Back
2015: OL falls apart / Walsh misses kick - Answer: Fix Kicker / Get better on OL
2016: OL injury disaster / Walsh gets cut / TB Injury = Answer: Get Healthy Fix Kicker (AGAIN!)
2017: Really good season / Defense melts down in NFCCG - Answer: Sign better QB / Fix Defense
2018: Sparano dies / JDF / Defense hang over early part of season - Answer find better OC
2019: Early season issue on O, Pass Defense takes step back, big game issues - Answer ?

Through all of this Zimmer has had three major issues in his tenure as Vikings Coach:

1.) Offensive Coach Hiring has been wildly inconsistent
2.) Every Year the team lays 1-2 eggs (Most NFL teams lay at least 1, even Patriots, not sure if this is normal or not for Zim)
3.) Straight up Bad Luck - Teddy Injury / Sparano Death most obvious

A distant #4: Specialist issues - IE Kicking woes - This seems to have worked itself out over the past two seasons.

However, IMO the biggest of them all is item #1.

That's a big one.

I think issues on the offensive line have been a significant shortcoming throughout Zimmer's tenure (and before that). It's varied in degree but it's been a problem that's held the team back. The unsettled nature of the QB position has been an issue for a long time too. Cousins has settled it down somewhat but I don't think it's clear that he's a long-term solution.

It won't surprise you that I believe there's a bigger picture answer to the question of why the Vikings have been unable to move into that upper tier of NFL teams. It's a simpler answer but I think the main problem is they simply haven't had management/head coaching combinations putting together the kind of teams that can return to the playoffs year after year and advance through them to the Super Bowl. The offensive coaching issues, OL problems, usually-unsettled QB position, depth issues, flat ("egg") performances and more all speak to that explanation. It starts at the top.

An interesting trend on that topic: 2015 and 2017 were the only seasons where the Vikings entered the regular season with same OC / QB / OL Coach combination. 2019 is basically the next such season since we are going from Cousins / Stefanski-Kubkiak / Dennison to Cousins / Kubiak / Dennison.

If you want a reason to be optimistic about 2020, the above is a pretty good place to start. I think Items #1 and #3 are the biggest reasons we haven't seen more from Zim. If 2020 doesn't have bad luck, it could be interesting. I'm not ready to mail it in yet on this era of Vikings football although the window is closing.

Every team faces some bad luck and sometimes that takes a form they simply can't overcome but I'm convinced deeper, systemic problems have held the Vikings back. They've evolved over time but they go back a long way, to well before Zimmer was hired.

Interesting observation about 2015 and 2017. In 2019 they'll have a new OC but obviously, not in the same sense as past changes at that position so there should be continuity at QB/OL/OC. The mini-trend you're pointing out will go against the trend of following each Vikings playoff season with a non-playoff season (which goes back to what, 2009?). It will be interesting to see which direction the season goes...

[Dames]

If you look at Zimmer's history, He has been to the playoffs 50% of the time. 3 out of 6 seasons as Head Coach. In those appearances he has won a playoff game 2 of 3 times. The time they didn't win, was the Walsh missed 26yd field goal in 2015. So lets just round down for the sake of simplicity. In 2015 we were the 9th best team in NFL. In 2017 we were the 4th best team. In 2019 probably the 5th best team (In NFL, not NFC), despite having the #6 seed. IMO most of those estimates are conservative.

So just to be clear, when people are saying Zimmer should go, they are also saying there is someone out there who can take the above results and improve upon them. I get wanting that elusive SB win, but I'd be hesitant to assume that the grass is greener. Aside from winning the big game, Zimmer's grass has been pretty green.

Another offshoot of the above. If you think Spielman is a disaster, then the above results should make you love Zimmer since he is getting such elite results while hamstrung by Rick. Or if Zimmer is a disaster then you should love Rick because he has assembled such talent as to almost overcome the coaching debacle. I humbly submit that just maybe they are both pretty good at their jobs and that is why we are getting the results we see, but I'm probably a minority on this point...

This is a tough spot, because while I agree that he has been very successful, there seems to be a really key component that is lacking. That is being prepared for the most important games. There has been a pattern of Zim's teams completely disappearing in huge games. It happened in 2017 Championship, the final game of 2018, and of course vs SF this year. It speaks to something seriously lacking when you have a pattern of abysmal performances like that. So, yeah, the overall success looks really impressive until you see how the years end.

To me, this is much like how Denny Green's career went. Amazing success, but couldn't do it in the playoffs. He was finally let go because they didn't think he would get them over the hump, even though he had an impressive overall record.

I advise patience with this offseason. Let's see what shakes out on defense once we hit free agency. There are reasons on offense to be VERY optimistic next season about this team. Defense is murkier due to the Salary Cap issues. Let's see what happens.

I very much appreciate the optimism! I am expecting good things next year for many of the same reasons you listed. I think the Offense should continue its success and hopefully even improve. I know they will be working on the defense a lot, because that is Zim's baby. He'll want to fix that. So, I do expect some results. I have a hard time buying into the next level though, for the reason I stated above.

[Mothman]

If you look at Zimmer's history, He has been to the playoffs 50% of the time. 3 out of 6 seasons as Head Coach. In those appearances he has won a playoff game 2 of 3 times. The time they didn't win, was the Walsh missed 26yd field goal in 2015. So lets just round down for the sake of simplicity. In 2015 we were the 9th best team in NFL. In 2017 we were the 4th best team. In 2019 probably the 5th best team (In NFL, not NFC), despite having the #6 seed. IMO most of those estimates are conservative.

It's a pretty generous assessment of the 2019 Vikings. They were the 6th seed in the conference but the 5th best team in the league? The 49ers, Packers, Chiefs and Seahawks all beat them. It's hard to argue they were better than the Titans considering what the latter accomplished. The Vikes were better than the Ravens? The Patriots? The Vikings had a losing record in their own division!

So just to be clear, when people are saying Zimmer should go, they are also saying there is someone out there who can take the above results and improve upon them. I get wanting that elusive SB win, but I'd be hesitant to assume that the grass is greener. Aside from winning the big game, Zimmer's grass has been pretty green.

It's been grass. 3 playoff appearances (none of them back-to-back) and 2 playoff wins in 6 years is good but it's hardly a stretch to suggest someone could do better. Plenty of coaches have produced better results in a 6 year period.

Another offshoot of the above. If you think Spielman is a disaster, then the above results should make you love Zimmer since he is getting such elite results while hamstrung by Rick. Or if Zimmer is a disaster then you should love Rick because he has assembled such talent as to almost overcome the coaching debacle. I humbly submit that just maybe they are both pretty good at their jobs and that is why we are getting the results we see, but I'm probably a minority on this point...

They are "pretty good" and the results we're seeing are "pretty good". If "pretty good" is satisfactory to the Vikings and their fans, Spielman and Zimmer are the right GM/coach combo. If you want something better than "pretty good" then year after year, there's an increasingly strong argument to replace them. That view doesn't necessitate viewing either of them as a disaster, which is plainly not the case.

To me the key question to ask is this: Do you think the 2017 and 2019 teams have the same post season record if they get to play at home?

We'll never know. What we do know is they didn't earn the right to host those games.

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO. So what is the path to improvement? I think Zimmer needs to figure out how to win 13+ games in the regular season. As I outlined in my previous post on this thread I think a significant culprit has been turnover and lack of continuity on the offensive coaching staff. At least in 2020 it looks like this will not be a factor.

I advise patience with this offseason. Let's see what shakes out on defense once we hit free agency. There are reasons on offense to be VERY optimistic next season about this team. Defense is murkier due to the Salary Cap issues. Let's see what happens.

I'm finding it difficult to be optimistic. It's almost impossible for me to look at the history of this coach, GM, QB and team and believe that somehow, with cap issues, a declining defense and seemingly perpetual OL problems they will be better next year and possibly make the NFC's road to the Super Bowl go through Minnesota.