Don't both of them kind of merit that criticism though?
I think we've got a pretty well established pattern in front of us with both. Cousins is not making the difference in big games. Put him up against poor competition and he looks good. Put him under pressure against better competition and he wilts.
Same with Zimmer.
Do you have confidence that, if the chips are down, either of them can surprise to the upside in critical games?
I actually have way more faith in Kirk in big games than I do Zimmer. Maybe it's because Kirk's only been here 2 years to Zimmer's 5, but how many big games have we been prepared and won under Zimmer? 1? 2015 @ GB? Maybe the following week vs Seattle when Walsh missed the chip shot, but we still lost that game. That was 4 years ago now and 4 QBs ago.
Kirk has 10 come from behind wins in his career - only 1 as a Viking. I think that says more about Zimmer than it does Cousins. I know it's not the same as "big games" but why does he have 9 more come from behind wins with a bad WAS team compared to just 1 with a "good" Vikings team (and "great" Vikings defense)?
In all honesty, it's probably a combination of the two - Zimmer being way too conservative / telling Kirk to limit mistakes, and Kirk feeling more and more pressure from the moment and from his coach in big games. Just a bad pairing. Kirk would probably kill it with a coach like McVay who gives full confidence in his QB and offense. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kirk has 9 more game winning drives with WAS when they had Gruden (offensive coach) as the head coach.
The numbers sure don't back that up. When trailing by a score or less in the 4th:
In Washington:
7 YPA
4.6 TD %
3.4 Int %
62 Completion percentage
In MN
6.8 YPA
6.4 TD %
6.4 Int %
58 %
That doesn't look like a QB who has been more aggressive in the past, in fact, assuming Ints come on riskier passes, which they do, Cousins has taken more risks as a Viking than as a Skin
The negotiator wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:39 pm
I don’t care what time stats you throw out, I know what I saw.
The coach called Cousins out for not processing fast enough at halftime. It isn't just the facts that get in the way of what you saw, it is also the HC of the team.
I have read this thread and agree on most of it,but if your O line can't protect while even leaving backs in to block, no QB will be successful. 7 first downs vs. 22 for Green Bay and almost double the time of possession is a killer for any team.Also having corner backs who can't play any press coverage any more, thus giving Rodgers easy 5-6 yard pitch and catch plays any time he wanted make it easy to get a lot of first downs, thus dominate time of possession.
CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:45 pm
Either way we need to hit the road and win.
Do you really believe that this team can hit the road and beat a team with a winning record? After everything they've shown this year? You think this group of coaches and players has what it takes to do that?
No. Our O was bad last night. We were down to our 3rd string running back. That's hard to make up for. Especially when the O is set up based on the ground game. Most point the finger at Cousins but I seen this Smith guy knock Reif over with one arm and then a straight shot to the QB. I seen Theilman unable to catch a ball that hit him. Tough catch but that needs to be made. And Diggs throw on a trick play was not very good. People hitch about that call but I think it took guts to try it. It was there. Bad execution. Make that play and it changes the game. Our D finally got some TOs. But the Packers ran the ball down our throats. The top guy averaged 6,7 yards and the next guy was 5.5. That's getting destroyed at the point. We won't beat a good team like that. I feel they need to try something different. Rest guys against the Bears. Let them watch. It couldn't hurt at this point. Work on our pass blocking scheme. Let the backup QB take the beating. Shake it up at this point.
I think it was like that whole game. There were no running lanes. The Packer DL were in the backfield almost immediately on pretty much every snap in the first half, running or passing. I don't think it had anything to do with the playcalling being one dimensional or the way Cousins was playing. The Vikings offensive linemen were getting ragdolled from the first snap.
I know you want to focus on Cousins, and he certainly did nothing to change the dynamic, but that was the worst performance by an offensive line at the pro level I've seen in a long time, and there isn't much anyone can do to compensate for such poor play in terms of playcalling or the QB improvising in that situation.
So you don't think the QB holding the ball longer than any QB in the NFL this week had anything to do with the pressure given up by the Oline?
That is an odd stat from a QB who was "immediately pressured" on nearly every play.
The last quarter was definitely on the Oline, I won't argue that, but it wasn't all bad all the time. There were opportunities, we just missed on them.
It went beyond the last quarter. Smith knocked Reif out of his way with one arm and it was a clean shot to the QB. Like he was shot from a cannon. Cousins didn't hold that one too long. Our maybe that was the one were he steeped back and side stepped ect.. to avoid the heat. It seemed like he held that one about 30 seconds before he was sacked. That changes the avg time to throw I think. Is that not part of the stat? What is running for your life backwards counted as? Time to throw or no play. It's to complicated for my brain.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:23 pm
So you don't think the QB holding the ball longer than any QB in the NFL this week had anything to do with the pressure given up by the Oline?
That is an odd stat from a QB who was "immediately pressured" on nearly every play.
The last quarter was definitely on the Oline, I won't argue that, but it wasn't all bad all the time. There were opportunities, we just missed on them.
It went beyond the last quarter. Smith knocked Reif out of his way with one arm and it was a clean shot to the QB. Like he was shot from a cannon. Cousins didn't hold that one too long. Our maybe that was the one were he steeped back and side stepped ect.. to avoid the heat. It seemed like he held that one about 30 seconds before he was sacked. That changes the avg time to throw I think. Is that not part of the stat? What is running for your life backwards counted as? Time to throw or no play. It's to complicated for my brain.
You are correct! When Cousins drops back and is chased and sacked I believe it’s all included in the “time to throw” stat.
CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:25 pm
It went beyond the last quarter. Smith knocked Reif out of his way with one arm and it was a clean shot to the QB. Like he was shot from a cannon. Cousins didn't hold that one too long. Our maybe that was the one were he steeped back and side stepped ect.. to avoid the heat. It seemed like he held that one about 30 seconds before he was sacked. That changes the avg time to throw I think. Is that not part of the stat? What is running for your life backwards counted as? Time to throw or no play. It's to complicated for my brain.
You are correct! When Cousins drops back and is chased and sacked I believe it’s all included in the “time to throw” stat.
It is. It’s from when the QB gets the snap to when he actually throws the ball. Not only did Reiff get pushed aside by 1 arm but so did Bradbury. More than once. I know what I saw as well and it wasn’t a QB holding the ball forever. It was an interior leaving no pocket and a left tackle getting abused. It was awful and it was mainly because we had no RB that was a threat and turned one dimensional
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:02 am
Easy bro. This is not a “we shoulda kept Case” rant. But you can’t tell me with a straight face that Zimmer liked Keenum. He didn’t even make Keenum the definitive starter until we were almost in the playoffs. And he said Keenum had a horseshoe up his butt, meaning he was lucky.
I just think that the overall philosophy of extreme risk aversion leans way too conservative. I place this loss on the coaching staff, and Zimmer leads that staff. That kind of offensive ineptitude, at home, against a defense that has not been as good as we made them look, falls squarely at the feet of the coaching staff. Yes, the pressure got the best of Cousins. And what did we do to offset that pressure? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No draws. No screens. Very few rollouts. Just drop back and let him get killed. Extremely poor game plan, and zero adjustments.
You couldn’t be more spot on with this Kapp. My family is super busy today so I don’t have a lot of time to post but this couldn’t have been said any better.
That offense last night looked so out of their realm last night it’s not even funny. I haven’t seen cousins drop back from under center that much since weeks 1-4. Stefanski seemed so lost without cook. It was so predictable, like you said hardly any rollouts, 1 screen towards the end of the game, turned one dimensional, etc.
They need to figure out this run game. I can guarantee GB didn’t go into that game saying “we have to stop Mike Boone”. They didn’t stack the box like they would for cook or maybe even mattison. GB played for the pass all night and we did nothing with Boone. We turned into a one dimensional offense last night when we didn’t have to. The play action wasn’t faking out GB at all because again, they weren’t worried about Boone. The point of the rollouts is to get cousins in space and away from this horrid pass blocking and we completely strayed away from that. Cousins is lucky to be standing today. Reiff is horrendous, Elflein is horrendous, Bradbury couldn’t pass block a fly, etc. The constant pressure cousins was getting up the middle was a joke. He often had little pocket to step into.
And then, the fricken overthinking on 3rd and 3 and 3rd and 4. Sure the Philly special was open, but again, you needed 3 fricken yards. Throw a check down to ham and get the first....anything other than a trick play. We had an opportunity to drive right there. Then the 3rd and 4 running a counter with Thielen and diggs. Even the dumbest announcer on earth Booger McFarland said “the Vikings want Thielen catching the ball, not running it”. And idk what’s up with Thielen but that long drop he had was at least 3 points there.
Cousins didn’t play well at all but stefanski did what flip did to cousins last year. Put it all on his shoulders, strayed away from the run, and put him in the face of constant pressure. I like stefanski and this new offense but that was by far the worst game I’ve ever seen him call. Stefanski did the opposite of what he’s done all year this game and I have no idea why. It’s like they had no clue how to game plan without cook and mattison and it shouldn’t have been nearly as difficult as they made it out to be.
So much for being busy today and not posting much
I have a lot more to say regarding defense, zimmer, this team going forward, etc. We’ll talk soon. Have a good Christmas brother!
Zimmer didn't like Case. That's why he's no longer here. People should give this Packer team a little credit. I know the stats say an average team and Rodgers is a middle of the road guy. Basically the bum loser for the Lions is better based on these stats. In the last 4 games, a quarter of the season, the most points their D has given up is 15. That's playing some D. We played them twice and scored a grand total of 26 points. That blows. They can play some D as we just found out. They destroyed us at the LOS.
What can the coaches do when the opponent's defensive line is beating the offensive line at will? What kind of gameplan is there to compensate for total physical domination across the entire front?
It wasn't like that the entire game. The last couple drives for sure it was like that, but that was only after the Vikings made themselves one dimensional and GB started to pin their ears back and go after the QB.
As for what you would do once GB started to really get after Kirk, I don't think there is anything you can do with our current QB. Brady and Brees would have made quick throws to avoid the rush, Rodgers and Wilson would have scrambled and moved the pocket. We have a slow QB who holds the ball too long. You give him all day to throw it and there aren't many better than him at passing, but it is unrealistic to ask that of an offensive line.
Stop it! I know you don’t like Cousins but make some sense. Cousins has had overall a good year. Somewhere in the top six in many categories. You think Brady or Brees would have made quick throws. I got news for you. They have a balanced attack like we did before Cook and Mattison went down. You put them in Cousins shoes last night and they would have been buried. GB rushed three guys on four occasions and got to Cousins twice. The only difference is coaching. Reid, Belichek, McVey, Shanahan and Peyton would have made adjustments. We don’t have skill set coaching. We can make things work when we have a balanced attack, but with Cook and Mattison out, Stefanski goes conservative and predictable or maybe it’s Stefanski and Zimmer. McVey and Cousins got along great in Washington because Kirk was a big part of the play calling. He’s not here. It’s been stated that Andy Reid has over 400 offensive plays. All I’m stating is when the going gets tough, our plan is straight drop backs or worse yet put Cousins under center and then let him drop back and really get leveled. Your statement about Brady and Brees under last nights circumstances is just you throwing out some jaded comment. I even stated I didn’t think Kirk had a good night but there was a lot of blame to go around.
The negotiator wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:54 pm
You are correct! When Cousins drops back and is chased and sacked I believe it’s all included in the “time to throw” stat.
It is. It’s from when the QB gets the snap to when he actually throws the ball. Not only did Reiff get pushed aside by 1 arm but so did Bradbury. More than once. I know what I saw as well and it wasn’t a QB holding the ball forever. It was an interior leaving no pocket and a left tackle getting abused. It was awful and it was mainly because we had no RB that was a threat and turned one dimensional
It absolutely is not included. That would be time to sack. QB scrambles are also not included, neither are handoffs. Because it is time to THROW.
Time to Throw measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded).
Zimmer's team had three real flat games
this season. That bugs me a lot, but the reason I am ready to move on is the total regression of the pass defense and him leaving LG in horrid state all season.
Rhodes and Elflien cost us games, this year.
I mean Zimmer's strength is supposed to be
defense, especially secondary. Rhodes was rated in the very bottom of all NFL corners all season long. Elflien just got pushed around
horribly all season. Wayne's wasn't very good either.
Cousins really isn't helping his case that he is a winner. The guy is getting paid almost 30 million for what ? I think I would rather have Bridgewater back. We got at least one more season of Cousins, yeah great (the nervous boy scout putz!)
I would cut LG, LT all of the corners but maybe one or two. Treadwell of course nice back to back penalties the other game.
jackal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:10 am
Zimmer's team had three real flat games
this season. That bugs me a lot, but the reason I am ready to move on is the total regression of the pass defense and him leaving LG in horrid state all season.
Rhodes and Elflien cost us games, this year.
I mean Zimmer's strength is supposed to be
defense, especially secondary. Rhodes was rated in the very bottom of all NFL corners all season long. Elflien just got pushed around
horribly all season. Wayne's wasn't very good either.
Cousins really isn't helping his case that he is a winner. The guy is getting paid almost 30 million for what ? I think I would rather have Bridgewater back. We got at least one more season of Cousins, yeah great (the nervous boy scout putz!)
I would cut LG, LT all of the corners but maybe one or two. Treadwell of course nice back to back penalties the other game.
Vikings drive me nuts some times!
You just cleared some things up. Our C is a kid who lacked the size and strength to hold the point. He needed a year to watch and get physically ready to play at this level. This secondary CB wise is a joke. Both starters who take a ton of CAP need to be shown the door. The backups are backups because they lack starting talent. Can't beat the two stiffs out that we have. Elf blows and should be cut. Treadwell is pathetic. He was on the street and no takers. Think about the talent level and our record. Cousins lead that group to the playoffs. Don't bring up 2017 either. Everything broke perfect including a lucky playoff win. Then Zim's D played like it does now against good teams. They were picked to pieces. I think we were ranked No 1 in D that year. Like all stats there's more to it. We shut out the Pack. We didn't do it this year. Why? They have a QB again.
It is. It’s from when the QB gets the snap to when he actually throws the ball. Not only did Reiff get pushed aside by 1 arm but so did Bradbury. More than once. I know what I saw as well and it wasn’t a QB holding the ball forever. It was an interior leaving no pocket and a left tackle getting abused. It was awful and it was mainly because we had no RB that was a threat and turned one dimensional
It absolutely is not included. That would be time to sack. QB scrambles are also not included, neither are handoffs. Because it is time to THROW.
Time to Throw measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded).
from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt
^yeah exactly. So like he was saying, it’s not taking into account cousins running for his life either. It’s just like what I said, from the time he takes the snap to the time he actually throws it. If he gets immediate pressure and is running for his life and then decides to throw it away, it’s going to effect his time to throw. Another reason it is a bull crap stat.
But thanks for bringing this stat up for the 16th week in a row and proving nothing with it.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
It wasn't like that the entire game. The last couple drives for sure it was like that, but that was only after the Vikings made themselves one dimensional and GB started to pin their ears back and go after the QB.
As for what you would do once GB started to really get after Kirk, I don't think there is anything you can do with our current QB. Brady and Brees would have made quick throws to avoid the rush, Rodgers and Wilson would have scrambled and moved the pocket. We have a slow QB who holds the ball too long. You give him all day to throw it and there aren't many better than him at passing, but it is unrealistic to ask that of an offensive line.
Stop it! I know you don’t like Cousins but make some sense. Cousins has had overall a good year. Somewhere in the top six in many categories. You think Brady or Brees would have made quick throws. I got news for you. They have a balanced attack like we did before Cook and Mattison went down. You put them in Cousins shoes last night and they would have been buried. GB rushed three guys on four occasions and got to Cousins twice. The only difference is coaching. Reid, Belichek, McVey, Shanahan and Peyton would have made adjustments. We don’t have skill set coaching. We can make things work when we have a balanced attack, but with Cook and Mattison out, Stefanski goes conservative and predictable or maybe it’s Stefanski and Zimmer. McVey and Cousins got along great in Washington because Kirk was a big part of the play calling. He’s not here. It’s been stated that Andy Reid has over 400 offensive plays. All I’m stating is when the going gets tough, our plan is straight drop backs or worse yet put Cousins under center and then let him drop back and really get leveled. Your statement about Brady and Brees under last nights circumstances is just you throwing out some jaded comment. I even stated I didn’t think Kirk had a good night but there was a lot of blame to go around.
Thank you because I was about to say the same thing regarding Brees and Brady! To say “they would get it out quicker” is a crock. If the quick hitters aren’t there or not being called how is that on cousins? The OC calls the plays. Not cousins, Brady or Brees. It’s not like wide open slants were there and cousins refused to throw it. And a huge problem was the pressure often came from the interior or cousins blind side. Brady has not done well the past few years in the face of pressure.
Long a standout against pressure, Tom Brady struggled in 2018 despite the fact that New England's offensive line ranked first in the pass blocking and Brady had a clean pocket 90.1% of the time, which tied Lamar Jackson for tops. Brady's 65.1 QB rating against pressure was 24th and he threw five interceptions, which is unusually high for the future Hall-of-Famer. Brady's 44% completion percentage also ranked 32nd, as did his 5.28 yards per attempt figure. Owing to last year's performance, it wouldn't be a surprise to see opposing clubs call even more blitzes this season to see if Brady, who will be 42 on opening day, can overcome the undefeated Father Time for one more year.
No less for the last 2 years, Cousins has been one of the BEST QBs in the nfl when under pressure. Bottom line is, the OL was horrendous Monday night. Period. Stop trying to fight it because you’re not going to win. They were bad because they ARE bad. Not because of a faulty stat that was found that shows cousins “holds it too long”.
I’ve said before, HOW is it possible that Cousins took 40 sacks last year when he was getting rid of the ball at an “average rate“ (2.75 seconds) in 2018 but only takes 28 this year when he’s getting rid of the ball at a “slow rate” (3.01 seconds)??? It doesn’t add up, because there are SO many things that this stat doesn’t consider it’s not even funny. Hence why it’s faulty.
I rest my case
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
I listened to the NFL Live crew talk about Cousins against the Packers yesterday. Jeff Saturday, Ryan Clark and Dan Graziano.
Saturday, remember Peytons Pron Bowl center, said he didn't care what QB was back there Monday night they couldn't have done a thing most of the game either.
I'm not sitting here defending Cousins and wanting to start and argument or start yet another slam fest. Its Christmas Morning fellas. So I wish everyone here a Very Merry Christmas.
I'm just repeating what Saturday , and Clark and Graziano agreed, that with our Swiss Cheese O line Monday night, and the way the Packers D line was OWNING us, they said they didn't care if it was Brady, Brees, Wilson or Erin himself, none of them could have done much at all.
Other than just a few plays, the whole O was pathetic. And of course on the late TD to Bisi, suprise suprise.. a penalty negates it.
It was a horrid performance by the O, and a terribly called game by our OCs. Period.
The D played the butts off, and have our O opportunity after opportunity to take control.
When we got the first fumble and got the ball in the red zone and couldn't get a TD, I had that sick pit in my gut and it game to fruition.
Sorry, but no confidence moving forward this rest of this year. That's a lousy way to feel.
Everyone have a great holidays
I just wanna die as a Super Bowl Champion Viking Fan!!
