Giants post game discussion

[VikingLord]

I'm happy the Vikings won. They did a lot of things well. Dominated a weaker opponent from start to finish for the most part, which is what they've managed to do 3 times so far this year. So that is good.

But before I allow myself to get too excited I need to see them play a good game against a quality opponent. The Eagles will be such an opponent. It's going to take a complete effort to beat the Eagles, not least of all from Cousins who I think is going to end up having to make some plays with his arm as the Eagles come into this game with the league's #1 rated run defense by a country mile. They will put a lot of pressure on Cook and the running game and basically force Cousins to beat them via the air similar to what the Bears did.

Luckily, the game is at home and crowd noise won't be an issue, so this upcoming game will be a perfect opportunity for Cousins and the Vikings passing game to stay on track and prove they can keep it up against a better defense.

Defensively, I though the Vikings played pretty well against the Giants. I liked how they came after the rookie QB and didn't let him set up and get comfortable. They also played the run well and made some nice stops. The Giants blew some opportunities, true, but I felt like the Vikings didn't want to concede anything and played tough across the board. It was a good game from the defense overall.

The game against the Eagles sets them up for the tough middle of the schedule where they will face a lot of tough opponents. Eagles, at the Lions, then Chiefs and Cowboys are all on deck. Cousins is going to get ample opportunity in the next month and change to show if he can shake his penchant for underperformance against better teams. Here's hoping he does, starting this coming Sunday.

[Texas Vike]

I'm happy the Vikings won. They did a lot of things well. Dominated a weaker opponent from start to finish for the most part, which is what they've managed to do 3 times so far this year. So that is good.

But before I allow myself to get too excited I need to see them play a good game against a quality opponent. The Eagles will be such an opponent. It's going to take a complete effort to beat the Eagles, not least of all from Cousins who I think is going to end up having to make some plays with his arm as the Eagles come into this game with the league's #1 rated run defense by a country mile.
...

I agree, but I think the challenge isn't on Cousins alone, but rather, and especially, on the OC to come up with a smart, balanced offensive game plan.

[TSonn]

We opened up the offense today with a lot of 3 wr sets. Its no surprise that we looked better. This offense can thrive if we go into 3 WR sets.

Great observation. Bisi Johnson was a pleasant surprise out there yesterday and seemed to be better than Beebe. Hopefully he impressed the coaches enough to roll with more 3 WR sets in the future. Hopefully when we get Doctson back we can open up the 4 WR playbook too.

[VikingLord]

I'm happy the Vikings won. They did a lot of things well. Dominated a weaker opponent from start to finish for the most part, which is what they've managed to do 3 times so far this year. So that is good.

But before I allow myself to get too excited I need to see them play a good game against a quality opponent. The Eagles will be such an opponent. It's going to take a complete effort to beat the Eagles, not least of all from Cousins who I think is going to end up having to make some plays with his arm as the Eagles come into this game with the league's #1 rated run defense by a country mile.
...

I agree, but I think the challenge isn't on Cousins alone, but rather, and especially, on the OC to come up with a smart, balanced offensive game plan.

True, the game plan has to be well considered, but my basic point is, the Eagles have a very good run defense, statistically a much better run defense than the Bears. So while balance is definitely the goal, Stefanski and Cousins both have to anticipate an effective passing game is going to be necessary to keep drives alive. That is where Cousins is going to have to perform.

Against the Bears, if you watch the coaches film you can see that Cousins had receivers open on deeper routes throughout that game. He was just too skittish in the pocket and lacked the confidence to let it go and try to make those plays. The Bears knew exactly how to play against him and against the Vikings offense, and to a lesser degree, so did the Packers two weeks before that. The main difference between the Packer defense and the Bear defense was the Bears completely shut down the Vikings running game, while the Packers had less success against it, but the overall approach was the same. It's the blueprint against Cousins. If you can shut down the running game and force Cousins into situations where he has to throw and everyone knows it, you can pressure him, flush him, and either beat him directly or make him beat himself with poor decisions and poor throws.

So sure, I expect Stefanski to shoot for balance, and if the Vikings can find success with Cook and Mattison/Abdullah on the ground against the Eagles, that would be fantastic. But the Vikings can not count on that. They have to anticipate the Eagles will do everything to shut down the run and force Cousins into the same situations he has proven himself to be generally ineffective. While scheme and playcalling can help, it's going to be up to Cousins then to beat the pressure that will inevitably be thrown against him, and show that he can stand in, make the right reads, and deliver the ball accurately.

I keep telling myself he can do it, and I know he can. He has to play loose and with a sense of urgency. Maybe mentally approach early drives like the Vikings are already down 2 scores with 10 minutes left in the game and need to get it into the endzone. He seems to do well in those situations. Not sure what the mental trick is, but Cousins is going to be front-and-center against the Eagles no matter what Zimmer and Stefanski do with scheme.

[CharVike]

Cousins was no different this game than he was any game. He threw a short floater to Cook that a good D that looks for TOs like the Bears would have picked it off and ran it in for a pick 6. Cook laid the ball on the ground. That's not winning football IMO. Our OC coordinators didn't change over night. It was the same story. I don't look for them to change. They are what they are. And our secondary is the same. Guys are wide open. I mean nobody covered them at all. That's Zim's scheme again getting blown up. Same old story but we played a door mat. Yes they won and Zim gets the credit. I wasn't impressed by it. This Griffen guy gets a #### load of CAP and didn't do anything. Some stiff held him up. He needs to blow a guy like that up. Rhodes another CAP eater was smoked. If he goes against a stud look out. Hughes was impressive.I give the kid credit.

Pretty much everything you just wrote was wrong. Is this a parody post?

Cousins was significantly better, hitting open receivers instead of missing them. The Giants want turnovers just as much as the Bears, they just missed on that play. Cook was amazing outside of the fumble that gave the Vikings 2 points. Daniel Jones had a measely 4.8 YPA, threw for under 200 yards, and had a passer rating of 66 against our secondary that was "leaving guys wide open" and Griffen had a great game.

Everything was wrong. I thought the Giants rookie QB missed a WR that was wide open and would have scored. I seen or I thought I seen Rhodes smoked for a TD. That's what I thought I saw but I was wrong. I said Hughes was impressive. Wrong again. I said Cook fumbled and might have cost us points. Wrong again. Your right everything was wrong.

[VikingLord]

We opened up the offense today with a lot of 3 wr sets. Its no surprise that we looked better. This offense can thrive if we go into 3 WR sets.

Great observation. Bisi Johnson was a pleasant surprise out there yesterday and seemed to be better than Beebe. Hopefully he impressed the coaches enough to roll with more 3 WR sets in the future. Hopefully when we get Doctson back we can open up the 4 WR playbook too.

I loved how Bisi played. He did very well and made a lot of plays.

What mystifies me a little is the lack of TE production in the passing game against the Giants. Given the injuries the Giants had coming into the game at LB, I thought the Vikings TEs would go off, but they were basically non-factors in the passing game. I was also a little surprised that the Vikings didn't test the Giants deep. There were a lot of mid-range attempts and completions, which was great, but no attempts over the top. I guess if the Vikings don't need the big pass play, that's great, but I would think the Giants are the type of opponent that would surrender a few good deep opportunities.

In the end, production is what matters, so if Bisi can get open and make plays or the WRs and RBs get all the attempts, fantastic.

It will be interesting to see how the Vikings attack the Eagles secondary in this upcoming game.

[VikingLord]

Pretty much everything you just wrote was wrong. Is this a parody post?

Cousins was significantly better, hitting open receivers instead of missing them. The Giants want turnovers just as much as the Bears, they just missed on that play. Cook was amazing outside of the fumble that gave the Vikings 2 points. Daniel Jones had a measely 4.8 YPA, threw for under 200 yards, and had a passer rating of 66 against our secondary that was "leaving guys wide open" and Griffen had a great game.

Everything was wrong. I thought the Giants rookie QB missed a WR that was wide open and would have scored. I seen or I thought I seen Rhodes smoked for a TD. That's what I thought I saw but I was wrong. I said Hughes was impressive. Wrong again. I said Cook fumbled and might have cost us points. Wrong again. Your right everything was wrong.

There were warts on the win, sure, but on the miss you mentioned, I think the Vikings had some pressure on the QB that contributed to the miss. I felt watching the way O'Brien played that he was basically chucking it up deep if he was under pressure. Those are hard throws to make for any QB, and if I'm the Vikings, I don't mind taking those chances (although admittedly, the WR was left way too open on that play if we're thinking about the same one).

On the TD against Rhodes, that was an amazing throw. Did Rhodes get beat deep there? Yeah, he did, but he wasn't badly beaten. The throw had to be perfect and it was, so sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. But it wasn't like that continued all game, either. Rhodes was rarely thrown at. He made a mistake on one play and the throw had to be perfect to exploit that mistake. I wouldn't say there is a lot to be overly alarmed at there.

The Cook fumble sucked, but it was followed up by the sort of defensive play I've been hoping to see all season. The Vikings swarmed and attacked and made a great play. Lots of tackles for losses, lots of pressure on that rookie QB that goaded him into mistakes, they did awesome to keep the Giants out of the endzone on that first Giants possession in the 3rd, and again turned the Giants over on downs when they got into scoring position on 4th and 2. They deserve credit for playing well more than criticism for the few lapses they had.

Honestly, what bothers me most about the game against the Giants is that this is what the Vikings have been doing all season. They didn't play perfectly, but they did pretty much run a lesser team off the field. Not that that is a bad thing. I expected it. Now I want to see them come out and play well against a better overall opponent, one that can probably take away their ability to run on offense, and if not, more likely take away those big gash runs. Defensively, can they get the key stops against an offense that is likely to be disciplined and not as likely to shoot itself in the foot? Can they remain aggressive and decisive against a QB like Wentz?

[CharVike]

Everything was wrong. I thought the Giants rookie QB missed a WR that was wide open and would have scored. I seen or I thought I seen Rhodes smoked for a TD. That's what I thought I saw but I was wrong. I said Hughes was impressive. Wrong again. I said Cook fumbled and might have cost us points. Wrong again. Your right everything was wrong.

There were warts on the win, sure, but on the miss you mentioned, I think the Vikings had some pressure on the QB that contributed to the miss. I felt watching the way O'Brien played that he was basically chucking it up deep if he was under pressure. Those are hard throws to make for any QB, and if I'm the Vikings, I don't mind taking those chances (although admittedly, the WR was left way too open on that play if we're thinking about the same one).

On the TD against Rhodes, that was an amazing throw. Did Rhodes get beat deep there? Yeah, he did, but he wasn't badly beaten. The throw had to be perfect and it was, so sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. But it wasn't like that continued all game, either. Rhodes was rarely thrown at. He made a mistake on one play and the throw had to be perfect to exploit that mistake. I wouldn't say there is a lot to be overly alarmed at there.

The Cook fumble sucked, but it was followed up by the sort of defensive play I've been hoping to see all season. The Vikings swarmed and attacked and made a great play. Lots of tackles for losses, lots of pressure on that rookie QB that goaded him into mistakes, they did awesome to keep the Giants out of the endzone on that first Giants possession in the 3rd, and again turned the Giants over on downs when they got into scoring position on 4th and 2. They deserve credit for playing well more than criticism for the few lapses they had.

Honestly, what bothers me most about the game against the Giants is that this is what the Vikings have been doing all season. They didn't play perfectly, but they did pretty much run a lesser team off the field. Not that that is a bad thing. I expected it. Now I want to see them come out and play well against a better overall opponent, one that can probably take away their ability to run on offense, and if not, more likely take away those big gash runs. Defensively, can they get the key stops against an offense that is likely to be disciplined and not as likely to shoot itself in the foot? Can they remain aggressive and decisive against a QB like Wentz?

Anytime you get a win in the NFL it's a good thing and is very hard. Especially when you consider we just came off a crushing defeat, had some internal things going on and we were on a consecutive road game playing against a rookie QB with two starts and two wins. That's tough to overcome for a team and I gave them credit. Yes the Giants aren't a good team I know that. But as another suggested I was making a parody post and what I posted was wrong. That wasn't my intention. We all saw the same thing. We all have different brains so we will process the same view differently. I felt Cook's fumble was a bad thing. It was pointed out to me that it lead to points. I know that but I felt we left possible points on the field. That's a projection. It's not what happened. I felt the rookie QB missed some plays. That's how I processed what I saw and maybe it didn't happen like that. I also posted that I felt we made some mistakes and a good team would probably take advantage. "Probably" isn't the same as will. The next game we face a good team is the Chiefs. That's only my opinion and I need to see us play a great game against them. That's all.

[VikingLord]

The next game we face a good team is the Chiefs. That's only my opinion and I need to see us play a great game against them. That's all.

I think you can put the Eagles on that list. The Eagles beat the Packers in Green Bay, and while they've got some warts for sure, they have the NFL's #1 rush defense and are a team that can credibly make the Vikings one-dimensional on offense and force Cousins into the types of situations that he's become infamous for not handling all that well. On offense, the Eagles sport one of the NFL's better QBs this year, at least statistically, dangerous receivers, and a ground game that is respectable.

The Eagles might not have enjoyed a great start out of the gate this year, and Wentz isn't Mahomes, but they're going to be a tall order nonetheless. I'm glad the game is at home.

[Texas Vike]

I agree, but I think the challenge isn't on Cousins alone, but rather, and especially, on the OC to come up with a smart, balanced offensive game plan.

True, the game plan has to be well considered, but my basic point is, the Eagles have a very good run defense, statistically a much better run defense than the Bears. So while balance is definitely the goal, Stefanski and Cousins both have to anticipate an effective passing game is going to be necessary to keep drives alive. That is where Cousins is going to have to perform.

Against the Bears, if you watch the coaches film you can see that Cousins had receivers open on deeper routes throughout that game. He was just too skittish in the pocket and lacked the confidence to let it go and try to make those plays. The Bears knew exactly how to play against him and against the Vikings offense, and to a lesser degree, so did the Packers two weeks before that. The main difference between the Packer defense and the Bear defense was the Bears completely shut down the Vikings running game, while the Packers had less success against it, but the overall approach was the same. It's the blueprint against Cousins. If you can shut down the running game and force Cousins into situations where he has to throw and everyone knows it, you can pressure him, flush him, and either beat him directly or make him beat himself with poor decisions and poor throws.

So sure, I expect Stefanski to shoot for balance, and if the Vikings can find success with Cook and Mattison/Abdullah on the ground against the Eagles, that would be fantastic. But the Vikings can not count on that. They have to anticipate the Eagles will do everything to shut down the run and force Cousins into the same situations he has proven himself to be generally ineffective. While scheme and playcalling can help, it's going to be up to Cousins then to beat the pressure that will inevitably be thrown against him, and show that he can stand in, make the right reads, and deliver the ball accurately.

I keep telling myself he can do it, and I know he can. He has to play loose and with a sense of urgency. Maybe mentally approach early drives like the Vikings are already down 2 scores with 10 minutes left in the game and need to get it into the endzone. He seems to do well in those situations. Not sure what the mental trick is, but Cousins is going to be front-and-center against the Eagles no matter what Zimmer and Stefanski do with scheme.

Nothing looked right against the Bears: neither the offensive game plan, the pass plays due to poor execution from OL and Kirk, the run plays due to ??? the Bear's D?, ... nothing.

I agree that Kirk will have to play with some confidence and let himself get into a rhythm, but Stefanski had better come up with a better plan than what we did against the Bears. It was as if they had seen evidence that they could run against ANYONE, so they wanted to impose that on the Bears too... only, it didn't work, and there was no shift to a plan B until much too late.

What I liked vs. the Giants was that they came out throwing in down and distance situations that they would have expected runs. They looked a lot less predictable and much more dangerous. Kirk looked different: not the anxious spazz who despite looking like he's overly aware of defenders about to strip sack him, doesn't protect the ball from said defenders. When he gets pumped up, I like the confidence and spunk he shows. When they went to commercial break yesterday they showed him slamming his helmet on its sideline 'mount' / resting place and he was just jacked up, intense, excited to exorcize some demons.

[VikingLord]

I agree that Kirk will have to play with some confidence and let himself get into a rhythm, but Stefanski had better come up with a better plan than what we did against the Bears. It was as if they had seen evidence that they could run against ANYONE, so they

I have a crazy theory on late "shift" we saw against the Bears, and actually, we see in a lot of games where the Vikings are down late and have to mount the big push under pressure to try to get back in games.

I don't think it's scheme or playcalls or effort at all. I think it's all in Cousin's mental approach. In those late game situations, Cousins isn't under pressure anymore to avoid making a mistake, because if he does, who cares? They Vikes are behind already, so if he turns it over, big deal. In those situations, he focuses instead of what he has to do and the throws he has to make, and he just lets it go. He changes from the the mentality of avoiding mistakes to making plays, and it completely switches things around, for him and for the rest of the offense.

Yes, defenses may be playing more conservatively at those times as well, but they're generally still coming after him with heavy rushes as they know the Vikings have to throw to get back in the games. Still, Cousins is making throws and moving the offense. It's generally too little too late, of course, but you can see the dramatic impact it has on how Cousins looks overall.

Cousins has to find a way to be in that urgent, play maker mental mode from the first snap and get the avoidance mentality out of his mind. If he plays that way from the get-go instead of waiting until it no longer matters and he doesn't have to worry about mistakes, I think the Vikings jump out to much more early success on offense.

Of course, it's just a theory. It could be that defenses relax late when they have large leads and Cousins just takes what they give him. It could be late adjustments by the coaches. It could be a lot of things. But in watching Cousins, I get the distinct sense that he's making too much effort to be perfect and avoid the big mistake that costs his team, and that erring on the side of extreme caution plays into the hands of defensive coordinators and makes him much easier to defend. The worst part of it is, Cousins erring on the side of caution doesn't equate to fewer mistakes.

In the famous words of the character Brodhi in the movie Pointe Break, "Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMAWKi3M4w

Cousins has to stop playing with fear early.

[mansquatch]

So moving on from this, I think the next two games are really important for how this season will play out.

This Sunday we have an Eagles team coming to town that has played scrappy and won some tight contests. Some media members think they are the class of the NFC. (I think that is the Saints right now, but I digress.) If we can beat them, that will do a lot to instill some confidence in the Vikings locker room. This is a big time prove it game for the 2019 Vikings. They have home field advantage this time, so it is time to deliver.

After this we travel to Ford Field. This Lions team is showing a lot of grit and playing good defense. We REALLY need a division road win to keep us in the hunt. That will set us up nicely for the run of home division games we have at the end of the season. 4-2 could still win the division.

After that we have a trap game against a dumpster fire Redskins team. Then we go into KC. If Mahomes is still limping that game won't be as out of reach as it looked at the start of the season. I'm sure Zimmer will love to get a crack at Mahomes. Given what Indy did to Spagnolo's defense on the ground you have to think the Vikings might have a shot. DAL doesn't look immportal either having lost 2 straight to better teams, including a Saints team that lacked Drew Brees.

We are still in this, but they need to get it together against the Eagles.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I think the challenge isn't on Cousins alone, but rather, and especially, on the OC to come up with a smart, balanced offensive game plan.

Agreed 100%. This isnt just about the QB playing a good game. It's about the OCs building off of the game plan and balance they brought to the table this week.

[Pondering Her Percy]

True, the game plan has to be well considered, but my basic point is, the Eagles have a very good run defense, statistically a much better run defense than the Bears. So while balance is definitely the goal, Stefanski and Cousins both have to anticipate an effective passing game is going to be necessary to keep drives alive. That is where Cousins is going to have to perform.

Against the Bears, if you watch the coaches film you can see that Cousins had receivers open on deeper routes throughout that game. He was just too skittish in the pocket and lacked the confidence to let it go and try to make those plays. The Bears knew exactly how to play against him and against the Vikings offense, and to a lesser degree, so did the Packers two weeks before that. The main difference between the Packer defense and the Bear defense was the Bears completely shut down the Vikings running game, while the Packers had less success against it, but the overall approach was the same. It's the blueprint against Cousins. If you can shut down the running game and force Cousins into situations where he has to throw and everyone knows it, you can pressure him, flush him, and either beat him directly or make him beat himself with poor decisions and poor throws.

So sure, I expect Stefanski to shoot for balance, and if the Vikings can find success with Cook and Mattison/Abdullah on the ground against the Eagles, that would be fantastic. But the Vikings can not count on that. They have to anticipate the Eagles will do everything to shut down the run and force Cousins into the same situations he has proven himself to be generally ineffective. While scheme and playcalling can help, it's going to be up to Cousins then to beat the pressure that will inevitably be thrown against him, and show that he can stand in, make the right reads, and deliver the ball accurately.

I keep telling myself he can do it, and I know he can. He has to play loose and with a sense of urgency. Maybe mentally approach early drives like the Vikings are already down 2 scores with 10 minutes left in the game and need to get it into the endzone. He seems to do well in those situations. Not sure what the mental trick is, but Cousins is going to be front-and-center against the Eagles no matter what Zimmer and Stefanski do with scheme.

Nothing looked right against the Bears: neither the offensive game plan, the pass plays due to poor execution from OL and Kirk, the run plays due to ??? the Bear's D?, ... nothing.

I agree that Kirk will have to play with some confidence and let himself get into a rhythm, but Stefanski had better come up with a better plan than what we did against the Bears. It was as if they had seen evidence that they could run against ANYONE, so they wanted to impose that on the Bears too... only, it didn't work, and there was no shift to a plan B until much too late.

What I liked vs. the Giants was that they came out throwing in down and distance situations that they would have expected runs. They looked a lot less predictable and much more dangerous. Kirk looked different: not the anxious spazz who despite looking like he's overly aware of defenders about to strip sack him, doesn't protect the ball from said defenders. When he gets pumped up, I like the confidence and spunk he shows. When they went to commercial break yesterday they showed him slamming his helmet on its sideline 'mount' / resting place and he was just jacked up, intense, excited to exorcize some demons.

Was about to say the same thing, sure maybe he had guys open, maybe the OL crapped the bed, maybe the WRs didnt do their jobs but NOTHING looked right that game.

Again, David Carr called out the OCs on NFL network saying the pass plays and route concepts looked like something from a high school offense. It is the definition of an OC not playing to his teams strengths. Not developing the game plan around your players. Flip did the same. What fits this offense is simply balancing it. Sure there will be a game we might run a little more or pass a little more. But Cousins doesnt just go from having top 13 passing offenses in the league every year of his career to having the 31st ranked pass offense. With stud WRs no less. There is a BIGGER problem than Kirk Cousins. It's becoming more and more obvious at this point.

[Mothman]

Of course, it's just a theory. It could be that defenses relax late when they have large leads and Cousins just takes what they give him.

That was definitely the case in the Bears game. You may be right that Cousins felt less psychological pressure at that point too but Chicago was clearly playing to defend the big play and willing to give up the underneath stuff.