Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

[StumpHunter]

I personally feel like this thread is to just pull the Cousins haters out of their holes. Let's compare our QB to one of the best of all time and see where that gets us on this board.....

Should I ask why Christian Ponder doesnt play like Peyton Manning next?

I wasn't going to respond for this very reason, and then I read that Brady is a system QB and bad under pressure.

[VikingLord]

A lot of interesting takes in this thread. My two favorite:
1. Tom Brady isn't good under pressure.

and

2. The difference between Brady and Cousins is system.

Here are the 2 biggest reasons Cousins will never be as good as Brady:

1. He does not read the field as quickly as Brady, and takes way to long to pass the ball.

and

2. When Brady plays great teams he steps up his game, when Cousins does, he wilts under the pressure.

There are a lot of other reasons he will never be as good, but those are the big ones and easiest for any fan to see.

I don't think Brady is good under pressure. I think he's always been a relatively immobile pocket passer who relies on a combination of a very disciplined offensive scheme coupled with exceptional field vision and accuracy passing out of a solid pocket. He's not great at escaping actual pressure, but he's very good at anticipating it and getting the ball out accurately and quickly, and when he also has the benefit of a solid run game and solid pass blocking, he's nearly impossible to stop over the entire course of a game.

You put Tom Brady behind the 2018 Vikings offensive line and I doubt he'd be nearly as effective.

I'll agree on the 2nd point you raised. No doubt Brady does not choke. He steps up when it matters and holds everyone around him accountable for their part in the result. That is actually the most impressive thing to me about Brady. Think about how many different receivers and players have come and gone on offense while Brady has been with that team, and he elevates the play of every single one of them, with those coming from other teams typically having their best statistical performances of their careers with Brady. Belichek gets some credit for that too but I think Brady's leadership ability is something special.

[mike2mike]

All Brady does is excel in pressure situations, and Cousins chokes every single time. Cousins isnt fit to carry Brady's jock strap. Brady and BB make an excellent pair.

On a side not, how come when you foe someone, you still see them when someone quotes them? Anyway to completely foe someone?

Brady’s stats when under pressure (meaning when pass rush is hitting or hurrying the QB without blitzing) are aweful just like 90% of QBs... That being said, Brady is good at not letting pass rush become pressure by moving subtly in the pocket into throwing lanes and stepping up and excels vs Blȋtz pickups which is different than pressure. Brady also has been really fortunate with OL over the years. Vikings have not been. Peyton Manning actually when you break down individual components is actually not nearly the hall of fame QB you would expect until he gets in favorable situations, but what makes him great is his ability to get in favorable situations more often. In other words he is a “game manager” who gets himself in so many 2nd and 3rd and short situations that he is better than most to begin with that the overall product is elite even if on 3rd and 7 or longer make Peyton’s stats make him look average at best. Brady’s offense avoids pressures and he is great at avoiding pressure. Cousins perhaps could be a little more like Brady if he had a great OL and a great system but ultimately he would still fall short if he does not learn how to step up into the pocket and throw without getting passes batted down which requires subtle movements. Brees is even better at this aspect than Brady and some Patriots fan will even say that if Brees was in Brady’s system and Brady was in Brees that there would be no doubt Brees is the best. Brady is certainly still one of the greatest of all times so it isn’t fair to call him a “system” guy but he fits the system well and the system helps him be better than just another top 5 NFL QB in a given year. Pats have always found Brady a couple guys who can dominate the middle of the field and the throws short and over the middle are easier to make than the downfield throws that Brady can’t make anymore (and neither can Brees). It’s kind of funny to me how QBs like RG3 can make super difficult to make throws way down field that the lite QBs can’t and yet can not really make it in the NFL but that’s simply not a relevant throw in the NFL as you don’t get enough opportunities to make that throw.

If Cousins has the OL that can have him sit back without allowing any sort of push where he needs to step up he’d be way better immediately. I’d say Brady’s pocket awareness and movement in the pocket is similar to Teddy’s which is elite despite Teddy being a better athlete by far and Brady is still a better QB. Brady will get through his drop back possibly even faster than Teddy and a really quick release. Fractions of seconds can make all of the difference in the world when it comes to timing routes and getting through all the reads. A split second can be the difference between a big play and a sack or arm being hit as you throw. Brady always knows where the ball is going and can feel it and he knows his limits so he will never try to do the crazy crap Mahommes can do for instance. It’s kind of funny how you can find QBs as good or better at any individual aspect than Brady but the complete package as a whole puts Brady so far ahead of most other QBs that excel in any one area that it’s ridiculous.

Cousins is actually very good at diagnosing defenses and making the right reads. He can make brilliant throws comparable with any of the top QBs when he can set his feet and doesn’t have pressure. Cousins can’t find the throwing lane well though (not that we had much of one) so when he steps up passes get batted down and when he doesn’t step up DEs get a good angle at him. Once Cousins starts moving he is very unlikely to still pass when a play breaks down. He’ll typically turn a broken play into a small run or a throw away which should be fine with our defense, but for it to work he needs to protect the ball a little better when getting hit to avoid fumbles. Kase Keenum, Teddy Bridgewater and Bradford were all spectacular under pressure and I don’t think people realize just how good all 3 of them were compared to the rest of the NFL. Bridgewater would move in the pocket to prevent it. Bradford would find the best available option and sling it fearlessly into a ridiculously small window showcasing an amazingly powerful arm while getting killed and Keenum would headbut the guy in the gut and wouldn’t move that great within the pocket but he would turn a turn a broken play into something even though he didn’t have a super powerful arm. Cousins is a little too Eli Manning when a play breaks down in that he is still capable of throwing the ball but tends to run away. If you could give Cousins Teddy’s pocket awareness you’d maybe have something resembling Brady but you’d also need to upgrade the OL and have a system and players that dominate the middle of the field and having a Gronk certainly would help.

[PurpleKoolaid]

I personally feel like this thread is to just pull the Cousins haters out of their holes. Let's compare our QB to one of the best of all time and see where that gets us on this board.....

Should I ask why Christian Ponder doesnt play like Peyton Manning next?

It's certainly pulled out the Cousins lover. And how is Brady one of the best QB's of all time when its all BB and the other coaches that make him look good. Like maybe the best ever to play QB? Why do you continually contradict yourself?

[StumpHunter]

A lot of interesting takes in this thread. My two favorite:
1. Tom Brady isn't good under pressure.

and

2. The difference between Brady and Cousins is system.

Here are the 2 biggest reasons Cousins will never be as good as Brady:

1. He does not read the field as quickly as Brady, and takes way to long to pass the ball.

and

2. When Brady plays great teams he steps up his game, when Cousins does, he wilts under the pressure.

There are a lot of other reasons he will never be as good, but those are the big ones and easiest for any fan to see.

I don't think Brady is good under pressure. I think he's always been a relatively immobile pocket passer who relies on a combination of a very disciplined offensive scheme coupled with exceptional field vision and accuracy passing out of a solid pocket. He's not great at escaping actual pressure, but he's very good at anticipating it and getting the ball out accurately and quickly, and when he also has the benefit of a solid run game and solid pass blocking, he's nearly impossible to stop over the entire course of a game.

You put Tom Brady behind the 2018 Vikings offensive line and I doubt he'd be nearly as effective.

I'll agree on the 2nd point you raised. No doubt Brady does not choke. He steps up when it matters and holds everyone around him accountable for their part in the result. That is actually the most impressive thing to me about Brady. Think about how many different receivers and players have come and gone on offense while Brady has been with that team, and he elevates the play of every single one of them, with those coming from other teams typically having their best statistical performances of their careers with Brady. Belichek gets some credit for that too but I think Brady's leadership ability is something special.

You put Brady behind the 2018 Vikings Oline and watch it miraculously become a decent pass blocking line. 75% of the success of NE's line is due to the QB getting rid of the ball before pressure can get to him. It was the same way with Manning. Those guys just did not take sacks. Sometimes because their lines were great, but most of the time because they read a defense better than anyone ever has and are able to find the open man quicker than the vast majority of QBs.

If Brady gets pressured, it is because everyone is covered, so yea, I wouldn't expect him to put up great numbers in that situation. That doesn't mean he is bad under pressure, it means pressure only gets to him when everything goes wrong.

[9man]

I don't think Brady is good under pressure. I think he's always been a relatively immobile pocket passer who relies on a combination of a very disciplined offensive scheme coupled with exceptional field vision and accuracy passing out of a solid pocket. He's not great at escaping actual pressure, but he's very good at anticipating it and getting the ball out accurately and quickly, and when he also has the benefit of a solid run game and solid pass blocking, he's nearly impossible to stop over the entire course of a game.

You put Tom Brady behind the 2018 Vikings offensive line and I doubt he'd be nearly as effective.

I'll agree on the 2nd point you raised. No doubt Brady does not choke. He steps up when it matters and holds everyone around him accountable for their part in the result. That is actually the most impressive thing to me about Brady. Think about how many different receivers and players have come and gone on offense while Brady has been with that team, and he elevates the play of every single one of them, with those coming from other teams typically having their best statistical performances of their careers with Brady. Belichek gets some credit for that too but I think Brady's leadership ability is something special.

You put Brady behind the 2018 Vikings Oline and watch it miraculously become a decent pass blocking line. 75% of the success of NE's line is due to the QB getting rid of the ball before pressure can get to him. It was the same way with Manning. Those guys just did not take sacks. Sometimes because their lines were great, but most of the time because they read a defense better than anyone ever has and are able to find the open man quicker than the vast majority of QBs.

If Brady gets pressured, it is because everyone is covered, so yea, I wouldn't expect him to put up great numbers in that situation. That doesn't mean he is bad under pressure, it means pressure only gets to him when everything goes wrong.

I agree with your take. Brady can read the defense well and make adjustments better than the majority of NFL QB's. He struggles when the rush is getting to him and he is getting hit. That, I believe, is the key to it. The defense needs to get hands on him that is when he gets frustrated and makes poor decisions. It's just not always that easy.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I personally feel like this thread is to just pull the Cousins haters out of their holes. Let's compare our QB to one of the best of all time and see where that gets us on this board.....

Should I ask why Christian Ponder doesnt play like Peyton Manning next?

It's certainly pulled out the Cousins lover. And how is Brady one of the best QB's of all time when its all BB and the other coaches that make him look good. Like maybe the best ever to play QB? Why do you continually contradict yourself?

Yeah because I'm defending Kirk Cousins here??? I didnt say any other coaches. I said BB is who made him one of the best of all time. He's the reason he's even relevant. And no I dont believe he's the best QB of all time. He's up there but not the best of all time. Because you wouldnt know who he is if it wasnt for Bill Belichick all these years. Simple as that. You cant win 6 SBs and not be considered one of the best of all time but I dont believe that. I believe his coach is the best of all time and Brady gets that label because of what BB has done. Brady is good no doubt. But there has been plenty of better QBs with much lesser coaches.

And please enlighten me how I "continually contradict myself" on here?? I would love to know.

You just complained about how you have to see my quoted posts when you have me foed and how you dont want to see my posts at all, yet you still respond to me?? Keep me foed and move past my posts then. Nobody is asking you to respond. And you say I'm combative.....

[VikingLord]

You put Brady behind the 2018 Vikings Oline and watch it miraculously become a decent pass blocking line. 75% of the success of NE's line is due to the QB getting rid of the ball before pressure can get to him. It was the same way with Manning. Those guys just did not take sacks. Sometimes because their lines were great, but most of the time because they read a defense better than anyone ever has and are able to find the open man quicker than the vast majority of QBs.

If Brady gets pressured, it is because everyone is covered, so yea, I wouldn't expect him to put up great numbers in that situation. That doesn't mean he is bad under pressure, it means pressure only gets to him when everything goes wrong.

I'll have to slightly disagree with you on this, mostly because there is only so much a QB can do to overcome deficiencies in the offensive line. In the case of the Patriots, they finished last season with the league's 5th best rushing offense at 127.3 YPG on 2037 attempts. Contrast that with the Vikings 30th best rushing offense at 93.3 YPG on 1493 attempts (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team ... rdsPerGame)

Being able to credibly run the ball affects being able to credibly pass it, and effectively pass block for it. In my opinion, Brady had a lot of pressure taken off him because the Patriots could run it effectively, and while it is true he'd likely make the Vikings offensive line look better just by virtue of his abilities, I don't think the improvement would be nearly as dramatic as what you are claiming for that reason.

[J. Kapp 11]

I suppose Brady WAS pretty average. Well, except for those two fourth-quarter touchdown drives in KC. Or the overtime TD drive that included three straight conversions on 3rd-and-10. Or the four straight completions in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl for 67 yards that led to the game-clinching TD.

But yeah, other than clutch moments, Brady was basically Kirk Cousins with a better game plan.

Is it really clutch when you convert a 3rd down on a bogus roughing call or when you get a do over after a guy lines up offsides?

In the SB I think it had more to do with a tired defense due to NE's ability to run the football and get a lot of 3 and outs. Brady has his moments too, the pass to Gronk was a beauty but I see age catching up with him. He's not as deadly as he used to be but they've adapted to put less on his shoulders.

He still has the intangibles that don't go away with age but I see him more of a manager than game changer these days. Anyone else in that SB would be giving major props to that defense, which was the real star.

He didn't throw 7 or 8 TDs in the post season like the past few years. He threw 2. With 3 Ints (easily could have been 4). I just don't see the same TB that came back against the Falcons, I see an above average QB that's getting more credit than his teammates. I get it, QBs get the glory and he has the rings, but if you really look at it objectively I find it hard to conclude that was a GOAT postseason.

I don't know that anybody claimed it was a GOAT postseason. I mean, Julian Edelman won the Super Bowl MVP, not Brady. I still think TB played excellent football down the stretch of both the AFC title game and the Super Bowl, and he was really good all game lone in the division game against San Diego. And we all know that TD passes aren't the end all-be all (to wit, 30 TDs, Cousins, Kirk). The Pats' running game was hitting on all cylinders for most of their first two playoff games, so they didn't need a high-octane passing attack.

For an old man at the end of his career, he still managed to win a SB. And honestly, with 500+ yards passing in last year's Big Game, he probably should have 7 rings. Is he the best in the game today? Nah. But he's still Top 10 IMO. And understand, I'm seriously tired of New England, and I'm not a fan of Belichick. I just respect the heck out of what they've accomplished.

[S197]

Is it really clutch when you convert a 3rd down on a bogus roughing call or when you get a do over after a guy lines up offsides?

In the SB I think it had more to do with a tired defense due to NE's ability to run the football and get a lot of 3 and outs. Brady has his moments too, the pass to Gronk was a beauty but I see age catching up with him. He's not as deadly as he used to be but they've adapted to put less on his shoulders.

He still has the intangibles that don't go away with age but I see him more of a manager than game changer these days. Anyone else in that SB would be giving major props to that defense, which was the real star.

He didn't throw 7 or 8 TDs in the post season like the past few years. He threw 2. With 3 Ints (easily could have been 4). I just don't see the same TB that came back against the Falcons, I see an above average QB that's getting more credit than his teammates. I get it, QBs get the glory and he has the rings, but if you really look at it objectively I find it hard to conclude that was a GOAT postseason.

I don't know that anybody claimed it was a GOAT postseason. I mean, Julian Edelman won the Super Bowl MVP, not Brady. I still think TB played excellent football down the stretch of both the AFC title game and the Super Bowl, and he was really good all game lone in the division game against San Diego. And we all know that TD passes aren't the end all-be all (to wit, 30 TDs, Cousins, Kirk). The Pats' running game was hitting on all cylinders for most of their first two playoff games, so they didn't need a high-octane passing attack.

For an old man at the end of his career, he still managed to win a SB. And honestly, with 500+ yards passing in last year's Big Game, he probably should have 7 rings. Is he the best in the game today? Nah. But he's still Top 10 IMO. And understand, I'm seriously tired of New England, and I'm not a fan of Belichick. I just respect the heck out of what they've accomplished.

The bold section of your post is more or less what I was trying to convey. He deserves a ton of respect, he's one of the best, that much is indisputable. I just think age is catching up with him and there's a fair amount of QBs in the league that probably could have faired well with that personnel and coaching.

No disrespect to Edelman but if a defensive player doesn't win MVP after that performance, I think there's a very clear bias in the NFL.

[StumpHunter]

You put Brady behind the 2018 Vikings Oline and watch it miraculously become a decent pass blocking line. 75% of the success of NE's line is due to the QB getting rid of the ball before pressure can get to him. It was the same way with Manning. Those guys just did not take sacks. Sometimes because their lines were great, but most of the time because they read a defense better than anyone ever has and are able to find the open man quicker than the vast majority of QBs.

If Brady gets pressured, it is because everyone is covered, so yea, I wouldn't expect him to put up great numbers in that situation. That doesn't mean he is bad under pressure, it means pressure only gets to him when everything goes wrong.

I'll have to slightly disagree with you on this, mostly because there is only so much a QB can do to overcome deficiencies in the offensive line. In the case of the Patriots, they finished last season with the league's 5th best rushing offense at 127.3 YPG on 2037 attempts. Contrast that with the Vikings 30th best rushing offense at 93.3 YPG on 1493 attempts (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team ... rdsPerGame)

Being able to credibly run the ball affects being able to credibly pass it, and effectively pass block for it. In my opinion, Brady had a lot of pressure taken off him because the Patriots could run it effectively, and while it is true he'd likely make the Vikings offensive line look better just by virtue of his abilities, I don't think the improvement would be nearly as dramatic as what you are claiming for that reason.

If Nick Foles can win a playoff game with no run game, Brady could too.

Matt Ryan also had a fantastic year statistically with no help from his run game.

Fitzmagic/Winston lead the league in passing yards this season, with little help from their run game.

Now, 2 of those teams didn’t make the playoffs, and were horrible defensively, and I do think no run game is a big part of that. More passing and less rushing the football will lead to more drives, and more opportunities for the other team to score. With Brady though, I think you could have long, extended drives with a bunch of short, quick hitting, high percentage passes.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Well the Ravens just traded Joe Flacco to the Broncos. Which goes to show how much confidence Denver has in Case Keenum which is none. This is why I continued to say that signing Cousins was easily our best option last year. Keenum cant be trusted and is a one year wonder. Simple as that. He's simply not a good starting QB. However, I dont think Flacco is good either but definitely better than Case. But I'm starting to think John Elway of all people, has no idea how to assess QBs. Guys think Spielman is bad....look at one of the best QBs to ever play....he doesnt have a clue.

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Ravens have "agreed in principle" to trade Joe Flacco to the Broncos.
NFL Network's Ian Raoport reports the Ravens will receive a mid-round pick. The deal cannot be announced until the new league year opens March 13, but it sounds like Mile High will be Flacco's new home for the immediate future. GM John Elway has been feeling the heat in recent years to find a quarterback, whiffing on Paxton Lynch as a first-rounder and then watching Case Keenum flop as a free-agent pickup last year. Flacco just turned 34 in January and is by no means an upper-echelon starter, but he's good enough in the middle of the pack at the position where a team can win with him. (The same can likely be said for Keenum.) This means Keenum will almost surely be released after one season with the Broncos and likely takes Denver out of the market for a first-round quarterback in April's draft.

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Broncos "will now shop" Case Keenum after acquiring Joe Flacco from the Ravens on Wednesday.
Keenum inked a two-year, $36 million deal with Denver last offseason and was never going to be anything more than a short-term stopgap, one that now looks like will only last a single season. Keenum is guaranteed $7 million in 2019 and carries a $21 million cap hit with an $18 million base salary. Only a team that views Keenum as a starter would trade for that financial commitment. If the Broncos end up having to release Keenum, they'd clear $11 million in cap space and absorb a $10 million dead-money hit. Either way, Keenum is expected to be done in Denver.

Cant wait to hear the...."lets bring Case back" chants

[StumpHunter]

Well the Ravens just traded Joe Flacco to the Broncos. Which goes to show how much confidence Denver has in Case Keenum which is none. This is why I continued to say that signing Cousins was easily our best option last year. Keenum cant be trusted and is a one year wonder. Simple as that. He's simply not a good starting QB. However, I dont think Flacco is good either but definitely better than Case. But I'm starting to think John Elway of all people, has no idea how to assess QBs. Guys think Spielman is bad....look at one of the best QBs to ever play....he doesnt have a clue.

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Ravens have "agreed in principle" to trade Joe Flacco to the Broncos.
NFL Network's Ian Raoport reports the Ravens will receive a mid-round pick. The deal cannot be announced until the new league year opens March 13, but it sounds like Mile High will be Flacco's new home for the immediate future. GM John Elway has been feeling the heat in recent years to find a quarterback, whiffing on Paxton Lynch as a first-rounder and then watching Case Keenum flop as a free-agent pickup last year. Flacco just turned 34 in January and is by no means an upper-echelon starter, but he's good enough in the middle of the pack at the position where a team can win with him. (The same can likely be said for Keenum.) This means Keenum will almost surely be released after one season with the Broncos and likely takes Denver out of the market for a first-round quarterback in April's draft.

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Broncos "will now shop" Case Keenum after acquiring Joe Flacco from the Ravens on Wednesday.
Keenum inked a two-year, $36 million deal with Denver last offseason and was never going to be anything more than a short-term stopgap, one that now looks like will only last a single season. Keenum is guaranteed $7 million in 2019 and carries a $21 million cap hit with an $18 million base salary. Only a team that views Keenum as a starter would trade for that financial commitment. If the Broncos end up having to release Keenum, they'd clear $11 million in cap space and absorb a $10 million dead-money hit. Either way, Keenum is expected to be done in Denver.

Cant wait to hear the...."lets bring Case back" chants

He is one of the best backups in the NFL. If Cousins wasn't incredibly durable, I would want him back no doubt.

Flacco is an upgrade over Keenum, but his price tag and a 3rd or 4th round pick make this a bad move by the Broncos. Flacco isn't winning anyone at SB at this point in his career, and is not a long term solution.

[VikingLord]

If Nick Foles can win a playoff game with no run game, Brady could too.

Matt Ryan also had a fantastic year statistically with no help from his run game.

Fitzmagic/Winston lead the league in passing yards this season, with little help from their run game.

Now, 2 of those teams didn’t make the playoffs, and were horrible defensively, and I do think no run game is a big part of that. More passing and less rushing the football will lead to more drives, and more opportunities for the other team to score. With Brady though, I think you could have long, extended drives with a bunch of short, quick hitting, high percentage passes.

I'm not trying to argue that Brady is better only because he had a better run game, and, as you point out, QBs can do well without that.

But, in the NFL, individual skill can only accomplish so much. If a team is forced to be more one-dimensional, inevitably most coordinators can find ways to exploit it. Without that run game, even Brady would find himself facing more down-and-distance situations where his relative weaknesses are exposed.

Just taking this back to the original subject of the thread, I think we can all agree that 90-95% of the reason Kirk Cousins didn't play like Tom Brady is because there is no QB quite like Tom Brady. That relatively small percentage that remains that is common between the two is really the focus of this thread, and I'd go so far as to say that if that 5-10% of factors common to both of them were completely reversed, so that Brady lost all of them and Cousins gained all of them, Brady would still have him beat by a country mile in terms of overall results, especially in high pressure games and situations.

[VikingLord]

Cant wait to hear the...."lets bring Case back" chants

How about bringing him back as a veteran backup?