My Plan to Fix the Vikings

[PurpleMustReign]

Seattle and Indy turned horrid Olines into pretty good ones quickly and made it to the postseason based on those changes. Our drafting strategy is the definition of insanity, we say BPA every year and every year the OL needs to be fixed. How long has it been, 10 years? Ryan Cook, Anthony Herrera, Artis Hicks, TJ Clemmings, Alex Boone, Tom Compton... we need to stop the madness. We don't need the best player available if he's going to be the backup behind a competent starter or part of a unit with enough talent as it is. We have an absolute glaring problem that needs to be addressed and we're in a position where we can reach a little. This isn't a rebuilding team, it's a team that's window I see rapidly closing.

To be fair, both SEA and INDY have very good, mobile Qbs. Makes the OL look better and can open both running and passing game.

Andrew Luck is not a mobile QB. At least not in the games I've seen him.

[YikesVikes]

To be fair, both SEA and INDY have very good, mobile Qbs. Makes the OL look better and can open both running and passing game.

Andrew Luck is not a mobile QB. At least not in the games I've seen him.

Huh?

[YikesVikes]

Seattle and Indy turned horrid Olines into pretty good ones quickly and made it to the postseason based on those changes. Our drafting strategy is the definition of insanity, we say BPA every year and every year the OL needs to be fixed. How long has it been, 10 years? Ryan Cook, Anthony Herrera, Artis Hicks, TJ Clemmings, Alex Boone, Tom Compton... we need to stop the madness. We don't need the best player available if he's going to be the backup behind a competent starter or part of a unit with enough talent as it is. We have an absolute glaring problem that needs to be addressed and we're in a position where we can reach a little. This isn't a rebuilding team, it's a team that's window I see rapidly closing.

Indy yes. Seattle, again, does not have a good offensive line. When it comes to run blocking, yeah. They are a bunch of strong, slow footed maulers. But they are one of the worst pass blocking OLs in the nfl. Just as bad or worse than ours. Their adjusted sack rate was 2nd to last in the entire nfl. And Russell Wilson barely throws the ball. That alone says enough

This is hard to explain but mobile Qbs like Vick an d Russell have always led to more sacks buy their oline. Looking at sack rates on these QBs do not tell the whole story.

[808vikingsfan]

To be fair, both SEA and INDY have very good, mobile Qbs. Makes the OL look better and can open both running and passing game.

Andrew Luck is not a mobile QB. At least not in the games I've seen him.

My mistake. But he's mobile in the pocket (pocket presence) and he gets rid of the ball faster which does make his OL look better

[StumpHunter]

To be fair, both SEA and INDY have very good, mobile Qbs. Makes the OL look better and can open both running and passing game.

Andrew Luck is not a mobile QB. At least not in the games I've seen him.

He is not a running QB, but he certainly is mobile.

[Alaskan]

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2019/ ... sive-line/

Some interesting info in this article.

I don’t necessarily agree with Coller on drafting skill position over OL. I think they should follow there board and draft BPA.

The o line problems are league problem(CBA). They need more practice time for these young o linemen. They are just nowhere near ready coming out of college, generally speaking.

There is just no way the Vikes are going to put together a mauler o line line some fans are pounding there fist on the the table for. It’s just unrealistic. They could possibly put together something line they had in 2017 under Shurmur and Sparano. They maximized the skill sets of that group. They need to get the right coaches and play callers and put together a system and scheme that compliments the skills of their linemen. That’s about the best we as fans can hope for in the short term.

Problem with that is we still have Curt “the statue” Cousins as our QB who needs elite lineman and skill players all the way down the depth chart to be successful. I think he will go down as one of the most bozo signings in Viking history.

Seattle and Indy turned horrid Olines into pretty good ones quickly and made it to the postseason based on those changes. Our drafting strategy is the definition of insanity, we say BPA every year and every year the OL needs to be fixed. How long has it been, 10 years? Ryan Cook, Anthony Herrera, Artis Hicks, TJ Clemmings, Alex Boone, Tom Compton... we need to stop the madness. We don't need the best player available if he's going to be the backup behind a competent starter or part of a unit with enough talent as it is. We have an absolute glaring problem that needs to be addressed and we're in a position where we can reach a little. This isn't a rebuilding team, it's a team that's window I see rapidly closing.

I really don’t believe the whole window thing and if I did I wouldn’t believe we where in one. Besides the article clearly states most of those rookie linemen you have been upset we didn’t draft all season graded out about the same as our current guards. So it would t have done us much good THIS season anyway to have taken one. As for the future with those players, who knows. We have an OLine problem, yes, I agree with you there. Personal is one part to the equation. There are other very important parts as well. Those need to be fixed as well. Can it be doe in short order? Maybe. I don’t believe it will be. There has to be a plan and I don’t have any real confidence anymore that the people putting the plans together are capable.

As for Drafting BPA. It is specific to the Vikings draft board. Which I would assume already takes need into consideration and puts a necessary emphasis if there is a “glaring need”. Some sort of a tier system makes sense for a board to me as well with given criteria assisting to identify who gets place where on the board. I am not talking about just taking who Mike Mayok would have rated the highest in his board. It is specific to the Vikings board. If you don’t like the way they put there board together, that’s understandable. But that goes back to not trusting the people making the plan. It really has nothing to do with taking BPA according to there board. Anyway. Mothman explained it well in a previous post about “team building” as well. He’s very good with written communication and putting his thoughts to paper. Much better than I.

[PurpleMustReign]

Andrew Luck is not a mobile QB. At least not in the games I've seen him.

He is not a running QB, but he certainly is mobile.

That's fair. I just don't think he's nearly as mobile as Wilson.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Indy yes. Seattle, again, does not have a good offensive line. When it comes to run blocking, yeah. They are a bunch of strong, slow footed maulers. But they are one of the worst pass blocking OLs in the nfl. Just as bad or worse than ours. Their adjusted sack rate was 2nd to last in the entire nfl. And Russell Wilson barely throws the ball. That alone says enough

Seattle still went from a horrid line to something serviceable enough to make the playoffs. Even if you feel their line is terrible at pass protection, at least they could run block. Whereas our line couldn't do either, which was a major step backwards from last year.

You can even look at a team like the Saints. They had three losing seasons in a row. People were saying Brees was washed up, SP may have been figured out/isn't as great a coach as once thought, etc. Now all of a sudden they have a running game and the offense is re-energized.

Even if you can't fix an OL in a season, it's been forever since there's been any sort of dedication to the OL. Reiff/Remmers were brought in after an absolute horrid year of OL play, granted a lot due to injury, but it was similar to the QB situation where nothing was done until absolutely forced into a corner. Hopefully O'Neill pans out as that's one less piece to look for but this team needs to stop bringing in late round guards and thinking it will work out. It's been the strategy for so long and it simply has not worked.

I get what you’re saying. I mean Seattle has had a bad OL for years. So is it improved, definitely in one aspect. The other not so much.

As for our OL, it’s hard for me to say if they could run block or not. We didn’t run enough to say so and there were so many issues with our OC along the way. I’ve said this before, not one person can sit here and tell me “we can’t run the ball with Dalvin cook and latavius Murray”. We have one of the best duo of RBs in the nfl. Cook averaged 4.6 on the year and Murray was 4.1 which was a career high for him when he’s getting legit carries. There is a huge difference between not being able to run the football and not trying to run the football.

Seattle has a good group of RBs but the difference with them is they committed to pounding it game in and game out. We hardly ever did. Nobody could really sit here and tell me that Seattle’s RBs are better than ours either. They had 534 rushing attempts on the year. We had 357. That’s 177 MORE attempts they had than we did on the ground. It would’ve taken us like 6 more games to reach that number. And just think, if Flip wasn’t fired, that number probably would’ve been even lower. We CAN run the ball IMO. We just didn’t do it. Seattle did. Heavy every game.

Now on the other hand, we had 606 pass attempts. Seattle had 427. That’s 179 LESS pass attempts Seattle had. Our teams were basically the complete opposite when it came to run vs pass. Difference is, Seattle knew they couldn’t pass block, so they played to their strengths. We didn’t notice that, and went away from our strength and what mike Zimmer wanted. There’s the problem

[S197]

Seattle and Indy turned horrid Olines into pretty good ones quickly and made it to the postseason based on those changes. Our drafting strategy is the definition of insanity, we say BPA every year and every year the OL needs to be fixed. How long has it been, 10 years? Ryan Cook, Anthony Herrera, Artis Hicks, TJ Clemmings, Alex Boone, Tom Compton... we need to stop the madness. We don't need the best player available if he's going to be the backup behind a competent starter or part of a unit with enough talent as it is. We have an absolute glaring problem that needs to be addressed and we're in a position where we can reach a little. This isn't a rebuilding team, it's a team that's window I see rapidly closing.

To be fair, both SEA and INDY have very good, mobile Qbs. Makes the OL look better and can open both running and passing game.

I would say Luck is a very good example of a QB who has seen his performance dip tremendously when under heavy pressure. I don't think it's coincidence he has looked like his old self this year after the Colts drafted a guard and tackle.

Wilson can extend plays and perhaps that's why Seattle focused on a run blocking line, it's not a bad strategy for them but one we can't emulate. I don't think Wilson makes their line look better, they're very much a run first team similar to the Vikings when AD was around. I think they just did a much better job of improving their line even if it is lopsided in strength.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Indy yes. Seattle, again, does not have a good offensive line. When it comes to run blocking, yeah. They are a bunch of strong, slow footed maulers. But they are one of the worst pass blocking OLs in the nfl. Just as bad or worse than ours. Their adjusted sack rate was 2nd to last in the entire nfl. And Russell Wilson barely throws the ball. That alone says enough

How many time did the Vikes sack Wilson when we played them, with the horrible Oline you think they have?

Wilson threw 20 passes against us. No less Wilson is the most mobile QB in the nfl. And he was sacked twice on 20 drop backs. Which is still not good by any means. He was also sacked 51 times this year. Compared to Kirk cousins 40. And he had 179 LESS drop backs than cousins did.

And again, let’s try to not twist my words once again. I said they have a very good run blocking OL but a horrible pass blocking OL. Not just a “horrible OL”. But either way, the only OLs that had a worse adjusted sack rate than Seattle were Miami and Houston. Seattle’s adjusted sack rate was 10.4%. We were 6.1%. Our OL was bad for sure and needs to improve no doubt but seattles pass blocking was a whole new level of bad.

Do you really wanna know how many times Wilson would be sacked if he threw 606 passes like cousins did this year? If you go off of how often seattle was giving up a sack which was every 8.3 drop backs, Russell Wilson would’ve been sacked 73 times this year. Which would be 2nd all time behind only David Carr (76) when Houston first came into the league. THAT’S how bad Seattle’s pass blocking is. Go ahead and do the math yourself. Shall I say more?

[S197]

Seattle and Indy turned horrid Olines into pretty good ones quickly and made it to the postseason based on those changes. Our drafting strategy is the definition of insanity, we say BPA every year and every year the OL needs to be fixed. How long has it been, 10 years? Ryan Cook, Anthony Herrera, Artis Hicks, TJ Clemmings, Alex Boone, Tom Compton... we need to stop the madness. We don't need the best player available if he's going to be the backup behind a competent starter or part of a unit with enough talent as it is. We have an absolute glaring problem that needs to be addressed and we're in a position where we can reach a little. This isn't a rebuilding team, it's a team that's window I see rapidly closing.

I really don’t believe the whole window thing and if I did I wouldn’t believe we where in one. Besides the article clearly states most of those rookie linemen you have been upset we didn’t draft all season graded out about the same as our current guards. So it would t have done us much good THIS season anyway to have taken one. As for the future with those players, who knows. We have an OLine problem, yes, I agree with you there. Personal is one part to the equation. There are other very important parts as well. Those need to be fixed as well. Can it be doe in short order? Maybe. I don’t believe it will be. There has to be a plan and I don’t have any real confidence anymore that the people putting the plans together are capable.

As for Drafting BPA. It is specific to the Vikings draft board. Which I would assume already takes need into consideration and puts a necessary emphasis if there is a “glaring need”. Some sort of a tier system makes sense for a board to me as well with given criteria assisting to identify who gets place where on the board. I am not talking about just taking who Mike Mayok would have rated the highest in his board. It is specific to the Vikings board. If you don’t like the way they put there board together, that’s understandable. But that goes back to not trusting the people making the plan. It really has nothing to do with taking BPA according to there board. Anyway. Mothman explained it well in a previous post about “team building” as well. He’s very good with written communication and putting his thoughts to paper. Much better than I.

I have a few issues with the article. The first is the premise that drafting an impact player will make a bigger difference. But we have major impact players in Diggs, Thielen, and Cook. Rudolph is starting to age but is still average. Like him or not, Cousins isn't going anywhere. So where do we put this impact player? As our 3rd WR? Where we spent a 1st for Treadwell? The article goes to great lengths to show how rookie linemen haven't made much of an impact and yet glosses over our 1st round "impact player" who hasn't done anything in three years.

The other thing is the article is mostly talking about round 1 and seems to advocate taking a guard in the 2nd. The problem is we haven't taken a guard in the 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th.... almost every guard we've taken is late round picks, UDFAs, or journeymen free agents. Easton, Compton, Isidora, Sirles, Gossett, Shepherd, Thompson... I think it's unfair to say the fan base has asked for this to be addressed and insinuate we're somehow losing perspective. Fans have asked because it's a continuing issue and it's really only been addressed via throwaway picks.

You have a valid concern in whether the powers that be are capable of undergoing such a task. It's a difficult position to evaluate because there really has been minimal effort in trying to address it especially compared to just about everything else. But it seems like Rick and Zimmer are here for another year so I'd like to see them at least give it a shot. If a 1st/2nd round guard has a tough time making an instant impact, it can only be exponentially worse for a 6th round guard. We need to start somewhere, otherwise this will be a continual problem.

[S197]

Seattle still went from a horrid line to something serviceable enough to make the playoffs. Even if you feel their line is terrible at pass protection, at least they could run block. Whereas our line couldn't do either, which was a major step backwards from last year.

You can even look at a team like the Saints. They had three losing seasons in a row. People were saying Brees was washed up, SP may have been figured out/isn't as great a coach as once thought, etc. Now all of a sudden they have a running game and the offense is re-energized.

Even if you can't fix an OL in a season, it's been forever since there's been any sort of dedication to the OL. Reiff/Remmers were brought in after an absolute horrid year of OL play, granted a lot due to injury, but it was similar to the QB situation where nothing was done until absolutely forced into a corner. Hopefully O'Neill pans out as that's one less piece to look for but this team needs to stop bringing in late round guards and thinking it will work out. It's been the strategy for so long and it simply has not worked.

I get what you’re saying. I mean Seattle has had a bad OL for years. So is it improved, definitely in one aspect. The other not so much.

As for our OL, it’s hard for me to say if they could run block or not. We didn’t run enough to say so and there were so many issues with our OC along the way. I’ve said this before, not one person can sit here and tell me “we can’t run the ball with Dalvin cook and latavius Murray”. We have one of the best duo of RBs in the nfl. Cook averaged 4.6 on the year and Murray was 4.1 which was a career high for him when he’s getting legit carries. There is a huge difference between not being able to run the football and not trying to run the football.

Seattle has a good group of RBs but the difference with them is they committed to pounding it game in and game out. We hardly ever did. Nobody could really sit here and tell me that Seattle’s RBs are better than ours either. They had 534 rushing attempts on the year. We had 357. That’s 177 MORE attempts they had than we did on the ground. It would’ve taken us like 6 more games to reach that number. And just think, if Flip wasn’t fired, that number probably would’ve been even lower. We CAN run the ball IMO. We just didn’t do it. Seattle did. Heavy every game.

Now on the other hand, we had 606 pass attempts. Seattle had 427. That’s 179 LESS pass attempts Seattle had. Our teams were basically the complete opposite when it came to run vs pass. Difference is, Seattle knew they couldn’t pass block, so they played to their strengths. We didn’t notice that, and went away from our strength and what mike Zimmer wanted. There’s the problem

I think the running deficiencies were most evident in the red zone and short yardage situations. The offense really struggled in both respects.

Also even when Stefanski took over we absolutely couldn't run at all on the Bears. There was one drive that they were effective running the ball and that happened to be the TD drive. Every other drive our RBs were getting stuffed at the line while Chicago was easily getting 5+ yards on 1st down running the ball. And I don't think Stefanski was shying away from the run, it just flat out wasn't there.

I don't think JDF made it any easier, his playcalling was very suspect but I think at the end of the day it was likely 60-70% our personnel and the remainder on the OC.

[Mothman]

As for our OL, it’s hard for me to say if they could run block or not. We didn’t run enough to say so and there were so many issues with our OC along the way. I’ve said this before, not one person can sit here and tell me “we can’t run the ball with Dalvin cook and latavius Murray”. We have one of the best duo of RBs in the nfl. Cook averaged 4.6 on the year and Murray was 4.1 which was a career high for him when he’s getting legit carries. There is a huge difference between not being able to run the football and not trying to run the football.

There is a huge difference but even the best RBs of all time have needed blocking to be productive. I understand the point you're making but I think 357 runs, while a relatively low total by NFL standards, is enough to make a determination about the quality of the run blocking. As usual, the answer is more nuanced than a simple "the OL can't block" or "the coaches wouldn't stick to the run". There were definitely games where they showed a lack of commitment to running the ball and that plays a role in overall results. There were games where their efforts to run were very ineffective and that almost certainly impacted playcalling choices. There were also games (AZ and MIA in particular) where they ran it very well.

The bottom line: I think if we look at the big picture, it's pretty clear that the 2018 Vikings OL was not a very good run-blocking unit, even though they had their moments. Their ability to run it effectively had a lot to do with their opponent. There was a lack of commitment to the run during the course of the season but that was often related to the effectiveness of the running plays and, in some cases, to the score.

Now on the other hand, we had 606 pass attempts. Seattle had 427. That’s 179 LESS pass attempts Seattle had. Our teams were basically the complete opposite when it came to run vs pass. Difference is, Seattle knew they couldn’t pass block, so they played to their strengths. We didn’t notice that, and went away from our strength and what mike Zimmer wanted. There’s the problem

I don't think it's that simple. That explanation basically makes playcalling the sole causal factor in the results and it wasn't the sole factor.

[Pondering Her Percy]

As for our OL, it’s hard for me to say if they could run block or not. We didn’t run enough to say so and there were so many issues with our OC along the way. I’ve said this before, not one person can sit here and tell me “we can’t run the ball with Dalvin cook and latavius Murray”. We have one of the best duo of RBs in the nfl. Cook averaged 4.6 on the year and Murray was 4.1 which was a career high for him when he’s getting legit carries. There is a huge difference between not being able to run the football and not trying to run the football.

There is a huge difference but even the best RBs of all time have needed blocking to be productive. I understand the point you're making but I think 357 runs, while a relatively low total by NFL standards, is enough to make a determination about the quality of the run blocking. As usual, the answer is more nuanced than a simple "the OL can't block" or "the coaches wouldn't stick to the run". There were definitely games where they showed a lack of commitment to running the ball and that plays a role in overall results. There were games where their efforts to run were very ineffective and that almost certainly impacted playcalling choices. There were also games (AZ and MIA in particular) where they ran it very well.

The bottom line: I think if we look at the big picture, it's pretty clear that the 2018 Vikings OL was not a very good run-blocking unit, even though they had their moments. Their ability to run it effectively had a lot to do with their opponent. There was a lack of commitment to the run during the course of the season but that was often related to the effectiveness of the running plays and, in some cases, to the score.

Now on the other hand, we had 606 pass attempts. Seattle had 427. That’s 179 LESS pass attempts Seattle had. Our teams were basically the complete opposite when it came to run vs pass. Difference is, Seattle knew they couldn’t pass block, so they played to their strengths. We didn’t notice that, and went away from our strength and what mike Zimmer wanted. There’s the problem

I don't think it's that simple. That explanation basically makes playcalling the sole causal factor in the results and it wasn't the sole factor.

I mean when Cook and Murray were both averaging 4.6 and 4.1 YPC, that tells me this OL was okay enough at run blocking in order to get a solid balance going during games. More so Cook is the one that I am focused on. He was right on par when it comes to YPC with RBs such as Melvin Gordon, Zeke, Miller, Hunt, Kamara, Conner, Carson/Davis (seattle RBs), Ingram, etc. You dont average 4.6 YPC if your offensive line cant run block. Look at those offensive lines for the players above. Pit, Seattle, NO, KC, Dal, LAC, etc. Those teams all have really good OLs. Ours, is not good I get that, but they were definitely okay enough to get the job done when it came to run blocking. A team like Arizona is a team that truly couldnt run block. One of the best RBs in the game in David Johnson was averaging 3.6 YPC. THAT is a team that cannot run block. We averaged 22 attempts per game and for most of the year, Cousins was averaging over 40 passes per game. You're saying part of the reason we didnt commit to running the ball was because of the effectiveness of run plays. Well was dropping Cousins 40 times a game effective? No. So you would think an OC would notice that and implement more balance and ours did not. Yes, early in the year I was saying the same thing, we arent running much due to the score or game flow. The only game I will truly say that was the case, was probably Buffalo because we got down so early and so fast. Maybe the first GB game as well. Outside of that, it was flat out ignored in the games that we lost. How on earth does Dalvin Cook average 9.3 YPC vs the Pats and you give him 9 carries?!! Even Seattle he was 4.2 and only got 13 carries. And we were tight with them most of the game. He didnt break 16 carries in a game until week 15. THAT is a problem. And after week 1, he broke 10 carries ONE time (13 vs Seattle) until Stefanski was calling the Miami game. The Pats, Lions (x2) and Seahawks were all top 13 run defenses in the league, and Cook had his way with them for the most part.

By no means am I saying this OL was "good" at run blocking but like I said, I wont ever believe we "couldnt" run the ball with Cook and Murray. We could, we just didnt commit to it enough to say so.

[StumpHunter]

It is interesting that despite the troubles running the ball, we had a shorter distance to go on third down than any other year under Zimmer:
2018: 6.86
2017: 7.19
2016: 7.39
2015: 7.57
2014: 7.33

Despite that shorter distance, Cousins had the worst third down conversion percentage per drop back of any of the 4 QBs we have had in the past 4 years. Case was #1 behind the best line of the bunch, Teddy was #2 behind the second worst line, Bradford #3 behind the worst, and Cousins #4.

43%
38%
37%
36%

Other notable stats

Passer rating:

Teddy: 98
Case:86
Bradford: 92
Cousins: 92

Touchdowns (same order as above):
7
2
8
8

Ints
3
2
3
2

YPA:
7.8
7.1
6
6.6

And just for PHP, completion percentage:
66.2
63.8
67.5
60.9

Based on these numbers, the encouraging thing is that while Cousins was the least effective QB on 3rd down that we have had over the past 4 years, he is not Bradford-like, throwing for 3 yards on 3rd and 7.

For context, the average distance to go for teams in 2018 was 7.19, and the average conversion was 39%. The Vikings converted 36.4% of their third downs if you include rushes.