My Plan to Fix the Vikings

[Pondering Her Percy]

I understand your position on Cousins clearly. I have read hundreds of your posts defending him. We don’t share the same opinions on this subject. I don’t care to debate it with you. No offense intended.

No question the o line needs help. Personal changes, COACHING, a QB who’s in sync with them and a swift kick will all go along way toward making this a better group IMO. It’s not as simple as adding a couple draft picks like some seems to think. For the short or long term. Scheme/system in combination with the RIGHT type of personal is a key element to this group being successful

And I'm not saying that we just need a couple good picks and it will fix things so I guess I dont understand where that opinion is coming from. I was speaking in regards to him having an OL that is any good. I'm saying it doesnt need to be elite for him to be successful. It just needs to be good. Like maybe an OL that only gives up ~25-30 sacks a year. Like his OL did his first two years starting in Washington. They were a good OL. Far from elite but definitely good. His first two years starting he was sacked 49 times. His last two years he's been sacked 81. His first two years of yards lost via sacks: 376. His last two years of yards lost via sacks: 602. There is the difference between a bad OL/one that was hit hard with injuries and a good OL. Those numbers are so far separated it's not even funny. Just give the guy some help up front and I think it goes a long way.

Some guys think I just come on here to defend Cousins and that's it. That's not the case. I'm being realistic. I'm not going to point the finger at one player and say "he's our problem" or "we have no hope because we're stuck with him". Mike Zimmer has been a problem in his own way, Rick Spielman has been a problem in his own way. Kirk Cousins has been a problem in his own way. The OL has. Our OC has. Everson Griffen has. Anthony Barr has. Xavier Rhodes has. Dalvin Cook has. Our special teams has. And so on. There were problems all along the way. The only way to fix this is by doing it as a team and doing it as one staff that is all on the same page. I've said before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If Daniel Carlson made one of 3 FGs against GB and we won, we're in the playoffs this year. Nobody talks about that though. That puts us at 9-7 and we beat Philly so we land the 6 seed.

As for the system, yeah, that plays a HUGE part in a team being successful. That is exactly why Case was successful and probably wouldnt have been under Flip this year. He fit Shurmurs system. Any other system he's been in, he's been horrible. That is another reason I hope we make the right hire

[Mothman]

Good post Jim. You are the Voice of Reason.

Thank you.

[Mothman]

I've said before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If Daniel Carlson made one of 3 FGs against GB and we won, we're in the playoffs this year. Nobody talks about that though.

http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/view ... =1&t=37114

[Pondering Her Percy]

I've said before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If Daniel Carlson made one of 3 FGs against GB and we won, we're in the playoffs this year. Nobody talks about that though.

http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/view ... =1&t=37114

Sorry didnt see that. Remember I was absent from here for an entire week

[VikingLord]

Cousins sometimes holds onto the ball too long. That is also a problem. Vikings receivers don't always get open so sometimes that's a problem too and it means Cousins has to either hold onto the ball until a receiver comes open, the protection breaks down or he can throw it away.

Sometimes routes develop slowly and the protection is insufficient. All of the above were factors so there's no singular issue to be resolved.

I agree with everything you wrote, but thought I should add that Cousins was much more reluctant to throw 50-50 balls than Keenum. In those situations, the receiver is not open, but not necessarily covered, either. IIRC, both Diggs and Thielen excelled at bringing in 50-50 balls when Keenum was the QB. Cousins seemed far more willing to check down if he didn't have a safe throw.

And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the lack of a credible run game made it far easier for defenses to adjust and cover the Vikings 2 starting WRs as the season went on. Thielen had 100 yard game after 100 yard game in the first half of the season. In the 2nd half, I'm not even sure he had a single 100 yard game. Defenses adjusted. And they didn't have to be perfect in their adjustment - just enough to get Cousins to look elsewhere for the safer throw. That little sideline meltdown in the last game against the Bears shows it worked, too. Cousins wanted to get it to his star WRs. He just mentally struggled with doing it because of the adjustments defenses made to covering those guys.

Cousins is not likely to start heaving up balls that are going to be contested even if his WRs are the best in the business at bringing them in and even if the coaches tell him to do it. Even with more time and cleaner pockets, Cousins is still going to mentally check down if the receivers appear covered. So the best way to help the receivers get into situations where they cleanly beat the coverage is for the coverage itself to have to take risks, and the way to force defensive coordinators to make tougher choices is to run it effectively.

It all comes back to the offensive line. If the offensive line can run block and the running backs can hurt defenses, defensive coordinators will shift defenders to compensate, and when they do, guys like Thielen and Diggs will find themselves clearly open more often, which in turn will help Cousins get them more involved.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Cousins sometimes holds onto the ball too long. That is also a problem. Vikings receivers don't always get open so sometimes that's a problem too and it means Cousins has to either hold onto the ball until a receiver comes open, the protection breaks down or he can throw it away.

Sometimes routes develop slowly and the protection is insufficient. All of the above were factors so there's no singular issue to be resolved.

I agree with everything you wrote, but thought I should add that Cousins was much more reluctant to throw 50-50 balls than Keenum. In those situations, the receiver is not open, but not necessarily covered, either. IIRC, both Diggs and Thielen excelled at bringing in 50-50 balls when Keenum was the QB. Cousins seemed far more willing to check down if he didn't have a safe throw.

And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the lack of a credible run game made it far easier for defenses to adjust and cover the Vikings 2 starting WRs as the season went on. Thielen had 100 yard game after 100 yard game in the first half of the season. In the 2nd half, I'm not even sure he had a single 100 yard game. Defenses adjusted. And they didn't have to be perfect in their adjustment - just enough to get Cousins to look elsewhere for the safer throw. That little sideline meltdown in the last game against the Bears shows it worked, too. Cousins wanted to get it to his star WRs. He just mentally struggled with doing it because of the adjustments defenses made to covering those guys.

Cousins is not likely to start heaving up balls that are going to be contested even if his WRs are the best in the business at bringing them in and even if the coaches tell him to do it. Even with more time and cleaner pockets, Cousins is still going to mentally check down if the receivers appear covered. So the best way to help the receivers get into situations where they cleanly beat the coverage is for the coverage itself to have to take risks, and the way to force defensive coordinators to make tougher choices is to run it effectively.

It all comes back to the offensive line. If the offensive line can run block and the running backs can hurt defenses, defensive coordinators will shift defenders to compensate, and when they do, guys like Thielen and Diggs will find themselves clearly open more often, which in turn will help Cousins get them more involved.

Good post. If I had to pinpoint the biggest problem on offense this year, it would definitely be offensive coordinator. Once again, Kirk Cousins was in an offense that needed to rely on him to win games. That is not who he is. Did we HAVE to? No not at all. But the flat out ignoring of the run game and unwillingness to keep pounding it, wrecked this offense. And by years end, it became more and more predictable. Teams were no longer threatened by our run game. They knew what was coming at them. Bobby Wagner even said it after the Seattle game. "We watched film on them and they do the same thing every week. We knew what they were going to do as an offense". That is the definition of being predictable. I dont think the lack of run game should be hung on the OL as much as some may think. We just didnt run the football. Not saying the run blocking was good, but the run blocking wasnt what was preventing us from running it 30 times a game. That was our OC.

We have 357 rushing attempts on the year which is 27th in the NFL and that number would be at the very bottom if it wasnt for Stefanski doing something about it at the end of the year. I'm sorry but not a single soul can tell me that this team CANT run the ball with Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray. I dont care who is on the offensive line. If you have Matt Asiata as your starter, sure. But not those two.

[Pondering Her Percy]

AND what happened to this offense because of that MASSIVE problem in Flip......

Last years average time of possession: 3rd in the NFL at 32:07 AND 501 total rushing attempts on the year (when we only had Dalvin Cook for 3.5 games)

This years average time of possession: 25th in the NFL at 29:10 AND 357 total rushing attempts on the year (when we had Dalvin Cook for 11 games)

^^ Anyone else see a MASSIVE problem there? The lack of balance, the lack of killing clock, the pressure it puts on Cousins, the pressure it puts on our defense, etc?

After going over these numbers, we are lucky we were 8-7-1. Look at the offenses that are bottom of the league in time of possession each year.

This year the teams below us (from 26th down): Denver, KC (because they score so fast), Giants, Cleveland, Miami, Cincy, Arizona. And 2017's teams from 25th down: Oakland, SF, GB, Chicago, NYG, Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincy. Point being, the teams at the bottom are usually the teams that are towards the bottom of the NFL as a whole or offensively. KC was the only team below us this year with a better record.

Blame Kirk Cousins, blame Mike Zimmer, blame Rick Spielman, etc but the main problem this year was right what I posted above. Clearly there were other factors but time of possession and running the football is key with a successful offense. Pat Shurmur showed that. No matter who you have out there.

Given Cousins' accuracy (2nd best in the NFL this year behind only Brees), if anything Kirk Cousins inflated the time of possession this year. Definitely did not hurt it and it was still only 25th. THAT is how bad our OC effected this offense and our identity.

How does a better pure QB and a better combo of RBs finish 25th in the NFL in time of possession but a worse QB and worse combo of RBs finish 3rd in 2017?? Two main reasons....Pat Shurmur compared to John DeFillippo and a worse offensive line.

[808vikingsfan]

AND what happened to this offense because of that MASSIVE problem in Flip......

Last years average time of possession: 3rd in the NFL at 32:07 AND 501 total rushing attempts on the year (when we only had Dalvin Cook for 3.5 games)

This years average time of possession: 25th in the NFL at 29:10 AND 357 total rushing attempts on the year (when we had Dalvin Cook for 11 games)

^^ Anyone else see a MASSIVE problem there? The lack of balance, the lack of killing clock, the pressure it puts on Cousins, the pressure it puts on our defense, etc?

After going over these numbers, we are lucky we were 8-7-1. Look at the offenses that are bottom of the league in time of possession each year.

This year the teams below us (from 26th down): Denver, KC (because they score so fast), Giants, Cleveland, Miami, Cincy, Arizona. And 2017's teams from 25th down: Oakland, SF, GB, Chicago, NYG, Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincy. Point being, the teams at the bottom are usually the teams that are towards the bottom of the NFL as a whole or offensively. KC was the only team below us this year with a better record.

Blame Kirk Cousins, blame Mike Zimmer, blame Rick Spielman, etc but the main problem this year was right what I posted above. Clearly there were other factors but time of possession and running the football is key with a successful offense. Pat Shurmur showed that. No matter who you have out there.

Given Cousins' accuracy (2nd best in the NFL this year behind only Brees), if anything Kirk Cousins inflated the time of possession this year. Definitely did not hurt it and it was still only 25th. THAT is how bad our OC effected this offense and our identity.

How does a better pure QB and a better combo of RBs finish 25th in the NFL in time of possession but a worse QB and worse combo of RBs finish 3rd in 2017?? Two main reasons....Pat Shurmur compared to John DeFillippo and a worse offensive line.

Cousins was not accurate, esp when it counted IMO. He threw a lot of short passes which inflates his completion numbers. I'm guessing the Vikings TOP was bad this year because of how bad Kirk and the offense was on 3rd down. Vikings were at the top in 3rd down conversions last year. Yes we have OL issues that need to be fixed. I'm one that thinks even with a decent OL, Cousins will still be the same, bad where it matters most (3rd down and redzone). I've seen too many times where even when he had time, Cousins still made bad decisions. Put all the OL comparisons aside, I want a QB that can throw that 4th down pass, around a defender like how Foles did. That was such an underrated throw. With how much pressure Foles was under (playoff implications), I can't see Cousins doing that. I've been waiting since the bye week for him to show something. I'm still waiting.

[VikingLord]

Given Cousins' accuracy (2nd best in the NFL this year behind only Brees), if anything Kirk Cousins inflated the time of possession this year. Definitely did not hurt it and it was still only 25th. THAT is how bad our OC effected this offense and our identity.

How does a better pure QB and a better combo of RBs finish 25th in the NFL in time of possession but a worse QB and worse combo of RBs finish 3rd in 2017?? Two main reasons....Pat Shurmur compared to John DeFillippo and a worse offensive line.

Its only fair to point out that Cousins' accuracy could have been inflated by his tendency to check down into safer throws.

There are also two ways to look at the impact the coordinators and coaches had on the offensive tendencies and production. One is they dictated it and their rigidity caused the decline in production, and the other is they did the best with what they had to work with, but what they had to work with was fundamentally inadequate.

When I read things like "they just didn't do something enough times" I have flashbacks to Tice's "Randy Ratio". Getting a guy like Moss the ball a certain number of times a game seems to be a no-brainer, but in the NFL, rigid adherence to any type of scheme or ratio is very likely to be turned against the team with that rigid approach or belief system.

I don't have enough information to apportion the blame for what we saw this year. Maybe it was the coordinator. Play selection seemed to lack creativity at times. Maybe it was player issues. There were some key injuries on the offensive line before the season even started. The line seemed to struggle with getting much push. They had a lot of untimely miscues and penalties. Cousins had trouble protecting the ball and had more passes batted down than I ever remember seeing in a single season.

So there were definitely issues in player personnel along the OL this year. It's just hard to say if those caused less or more than half of the drop in production you noted.

I think for me, the core takeaway is that the Vikings can win with Cousins. They have the RBs and WRs and TEs to get the job done assuming no major turnover or trades take place this offseason. The obvious place to focus, at least in terms of personnel, is along the OL, and right now, the only guy I really trust of the current group of players is O'Neill. I would like to trust Pat at center, but he didn't seem to be nearly as effective when he came back. Everyone else should be looked at, and that could mean a LOT of turnover heading into next season. That is good and bad. Good in the sense that the problem is fixable and can be addressed, but bad in the sense that if there is that much turnover, there is going to more risk and a sizeable chance the problem might not be addressed.

[Alaskan]

AND what happened to this offense because of that MASSIVE problem in Flip......

Last years average time of possession: 3rd in the NFL at 32:07 AND 501 total rushing attempts on the year (when we only had Dalvin Cook for 3.5 games)

This years average time of possession: 25th in the NFL at 29:10 AND 357 total rushing attempts on the year (when we had Dalvin Cook for 11 games)

^^ Anyone else see a MASSIVE problem there? The lack of balance, the lack of killing clock, the pressure it puts on Cousins, the pressure it puts on our defense, etc?

After going over these numbers, we are lucky we were 8-7-1. Look at the offenses that are bottom of the league in time of possession each year.

This year the teams below us (from 26th down): Denver, KC (because they score so fast), Giants, Cleveland, Miami, Cincy, Arizona. And 2017's teams from 25th down: Oakland, SF, GB, Chicago, NYG, Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincy. Point being, the teams at the bottom are usually the teams that are towards the bottom of the NFL as a whole or offensively. KC was the only team below us this year with a better record.

Blame Kirk Cousins, blame Mike Zimmer, blame Rick Spielman, etc but the main problem this year was right what I posted above. Clearly there were other factors but time of possession and running the football is key with a successful offense. Pat Shurmur showed that. No matter who you have out there.

Given Cousins' accuracy (2nd best in the NFL this year behind only Brees), if anything Kirk Cousins inflated the time of possession this year. Definitely did not hurt it and it was still only 25th. THAT is how bad our OC effected this offense and our identity.

How does a better pure QB and a better combo of RBs finish 25th in the NFL in time of possession but a worse QB and worse combo of RBs finish 3rd in 2017?? Two main reasons....Pat Shurmur compared to John DeFillippo and a worse offensive line.

Cousins was not accurate, esp when it counted IMO. He threw a lot of short passes which inflates his completion numbers. I'm guessing the Vikings TOP was bad this year because of how bad Kirk and the offense was on 3rd down. Vikings were at the top in 3rd down conversions last year. Yes we have OL issues that need to be fixed. I'm one that thinks even with a decent OL, Cousins will still be the same, bad where it matters most (3rd down and redzone). I've seen too many times where even when he had time, Cousins still made bad decisions. Put all the OL comparisons aside, I want a QB that can throw that 4th down pass, around a defender like how Foles did. That was such an underrated throw. With how much pressure Foles was under (playoff implications), I can't see Cousins doing that. I've been waiting since the bye week for him to show something. I'm still waiting.

I am guessing you’re gonna be waiting a while......like forever. I agree with your sentiment completely

[Alaskan]

I've said before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If Daniel Carlson made one of 3 FGs against GB and we won, we're in the playoffs this year. Nobody talks about that though.

http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/view ... =1&t=37114

Mothman. I love your takeon the kicker not being solely responsible for that loss. It’s a team sport. I share those same thoughts. What I found to be even more crazy was cutting the kicker after the loss! Talk about knee jerk!! I have been outspoken supporters of Zimmer and Spielman, but I have to be honest, it’s become difficult to be supportive. The cousins signing, the failed OC hire and cutting a rookie kicker who we trade ionto the fifth to get because he was awful to start the season are just a few of the reasons. Those are just the major blunders from this year!! I like Zimmer. I thinks he’s a hell of a teacher and developer of defensive talent. He has an excellent football mind I believe, at a level few have. I just really no longer believe he is cut out to be the the leader of this football team. For me, Spielman just try’s to get too cute with his moves. He’s a bit short sighted and he’s had ample opportunities to build something lasting in MN. The Loss of Bridgewater and Floyd where unfortunate. I think to and extent they are still not recovered from them and have definitely effected the organization top to bottom. Especially with the timing of the stadium opening and all. But that’s for another post.

[YikesVikes]

On the season he completed 68% of his passes for 4100 yards 26 tds, All while missing his team's 2nd best WR. I don't think throwing the ball is an issue for him. His line sucks and it showed vs. comp.



The issues with the line are not overblown. We can't run the ball and we can't pass protect. How can you overblow deficiencies is both aspects of the offense. I hate when people talk about a QB holding the ball too long. They rarely imagine that no one is open. You then explain that we have a problem running the ball consistently but then said the problems are overblown? Did you watch week 17? Do ou realize that prior to New England, we had only one game over 100 yards as a team.



Foles also has one of the best Olines in the league. Top 3. You need to delete this paragraph.



We were the 2nd or 3rd most pressured team in the league and you don't think we had a problem with the oline. We had games where a lineman gave up double-digit pressures and you think that was the QB's fault. None of this makes sense. Kirk is not Keenum athletically but what Remmers and Compton put outthere on film was could have them arrested for abuse.

On the season he completed 68% of his passes for 4100 yards 26 tds, All while missing his team's 2nd best WR. I don't think throwing the ball is an issue for him. His line sucks and it showed vs. comp.



The issues with the line are not overblown. We can't run the ball and we can't pass protect. How can you overblow deficiencies is both aspects of the offense. I hate when people talk about a QB holding the ball too long. They rarely imagine that no one is open. You then explain that we have a problem running the ball consistently but then said the problems are overblown? Did you watch week 17? Do ou realize that prior to New England, we had only one game over 100 yards as a team.



Foles also has one of the best Olines in the league. Top 3. You need to delete this paragraph.



We were the 2nd or 3rd most pressured team in the league and you don't think we had a problem with the oline. We had games where a lineman gave up double-digit pressures and you think that was the QB's fault. None of this makes sense. Kirk is not Keenum athletically but what Remmers and Compton put outthere on film was could have them arrested for abuse.

I will just go over these in order:

Yes Watson had a good season and was actually able to win enough games to get his team into the playoffs, despite a worse line than ours. When he got to the playoffs, he struggled. His throws were off target, he rushed passes and he didn’t play well. Something to be expected from a 2nd year guy who missed most of his first year. He will be better next year and I wish our GM hadn’t traded away our chance at drafting him.

I understand your frustration with people bringing up time to throw, it proves the QB was the problem, more than it was the Oline. We had one of the best WR tandems in football, I don’t think them getting open was the problem.

You think I am incorrect when I write the issues with the run game and pass blocking are overblown and then go on to say a team that had only 80 more rushing yards but a lower YPA than us, and gave up the same number of sacks and a higher sack percentage than us (despite a mobile QB for most of the season), had the 3rd best offensive line in football? I am not deleting anything. The Eagles line gave Foles less time to throw than the Vikings line gave Cousins versus the Bears. That is a fact. Not one you like, but that doesn’t make it not true.

Pressure stats are meaningless without the context of how long the QB held the ball before the pressure arrived. Pressure after 2 seconds is very different than pressure after 4, and our QB held the ball longer than the majority of the other pure pocket passers out there and was pressured more because of that. If your QB has more than 3 seconds to stand in the pocket before he is pressured, your line is doing a great job. Guess what happened week 17 versus the best pass rush in the NFL? 3.11 seconds to throw against the Hicks and Mack and only allowing pressure on 55% of the throws is a fantastic feat by this line.

I will add, that the fact the Eagles line regressed so much from last year to this, is a good reason not to go all in on the Oline. It seems almost impossible in this day and age to keep an elite line for longer than a year or two (due to injury and FAs), and the teams with success longterm on the line have that success because the QB helps the line out by getting rid of the ball quickly (Brady and Brees) or by buying time with his legs (Rogers). Fix the system, fix the QB, and magically the line won’t seem so bad anymore.

Again, laughable that you keep trying to blame the QB for this. The oline is bad. I would go into all this but it's a waste of my time. Better skilled players is the way to go. Also draft another kicker and maybe a punter. But by all means keep putting guys you sign for 800k out there on the field. Also, so that you look like you know what you are talking about in the future, when a QB holds the ball too long, the pressure is credited to him, not the olineman.

[YikesVikes]

Also, teams started dropping 8 guy in coverage against us, notably Seattle.

[StumpHunter]

Again, laughable that you keep trying to blame the QB for this. The oline is bad. I would go into all this but it's a waste of my time. Better skilled players is the way to go. Also draft another kicker and maybe a punter. But by all means keep putting guys you sign for 800k out there on the field. Also, so that you look like you know what you are talking about in the future, when a QB holds the ball too long, the pressure is credited to him, not the olineman.

Cool, so how many pressures were credited to Cousins then?

[StumpHunter]

Also, teams started dropping 8 guy in coverage against us, notably Seattle.

Nah, they started to only drop 4 guys into coverage.

See, I can make stuff up too.