My Plan to Fix the Vikings

[YikesVikes]

Theres a lot of good posts in this thread. But I think the main problem on this Vikings team, is Rick Spielman. He simply doesnt know QB talent, Oline talent or WR talent. His scouts must do a horrible job too, esp. with QB scouting. Its going to hurt getting a new GM, probably a rough patch, but a good GM could take this team to, and win, the SB.

I think Speilman is too smart for his own liking. We really have not done well in the first round.

Barr - slightly above average but not good enough for 9th overall player
Waynes - Drafted 11th overall. Good player but not close to 11th best player that year.
Smith - Hit and more
Patterson - Not worth wear drafted
Khalil - Injuries hurt him so no knock on Rick
Bridge - Injuries hurt him but there were question marks
Thats a lot of ??? picks in consecutive years.

[Alaskan]

I like your Post Alaskan! Your views are similar to my own.

I suspect we are also seeing a shift towards the Lamar Jackson / Mitchel Trubisky type QB who probably isn't the most accurate thrower, but can offset that to some degree by buying time with his legs that the modern OL can't provide.

I suspect we are also seeing greater onus on the running game as defensive teams continue to draft lanky DE who are built to beat OLs designed to defend more traditional pocket passers. A cut runner with speed can get around these guys and mauler OL can put them on their backs.

The NFL is an ever changing competitive meat grinder.

I agree that the major decision this offseason is OC and OL Coach. They need to find the right guy.

I am no expert. This is just my point of view. I like seeing what others have to say as well. Your posts are always very sensible to me and we share a lot of the same opinions. I mostly read posts on this forum. I just don’t have the time to keep up with posting On a regular basis.

I sure do think the OC and OL coaching selections could be something that gives this team new life next season. I am looking forward to seeing who they go with!

[Alaskan]

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2019/ ... sive-line/

Some interesting info in this article.

I don’t necessarily agree with Coller on drafting skill position over OL. I think they should follow there board and draft BPA.

The o line problems are league problem(CBA). They need more practice time for these young o linemen. They are just nowhere near ready coming out of college, generally speaking.

There is just no way the Vikes are going to put together a mauler o line line some fans are pounding there fist on the the table for. It’s just unrealistic. They could possibly put together something line they had in 2017 under Shurmur and Sparano. They maximized the skill sets of that group. They need to get the right coaches and play callers and put together a system and scheme that compliments the skills of their linemen. That’s about the best we as fans can hope for in the short term.

Problem with that is we still have Curt “the statue” Cousins as our QB who needs elite lineman and skill players all the way down the depth chart to be successful. I think he will go down as one of the most bozo signings in Viking history.

Agreed we still need to go BPA. We can’t just take OL to take them. That’s when we end up screwing ourselves and passing on legit talent just because we “need” OL.

As for cousins, I don’t think he needs “elite” offensive lineman and playmakers around him to be successful. Do you think he or any QB that would be behind this OL needs a better OL to be successful? Yeah I would say so. This OL surrendered 259 pressures this season. Reiff and Remmers giving up the most of any. Followed by Compton, then Elflein then O’Neill. Reiff and Remmers gave up over 16% of the pressures each. That is really really bad.

Either way, just give the guy a good OL that can hold up. It doesn’t need to be elite. Just get a solid one. I think we have two good pieces in Elflein and O’Neill. We gotta just keep building on that

I understand your position on Cousins clearly. I have read hundreds of your posts defending him. We don’t share the same opinions on this subject. I don’t care to debate it with you. No offense intended.

No question the o line needs help. Personal changes, COACHING, a QB who’s in sync with them and a swift kick will all go along way toward making this a better group IMO. It’s not as simple as adding a couple draft picks like some seems to think. For the short or long term. Scheme/system in combination with the RIGHT type of personal is a key element to this group being successful

[Alaskan]

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2019/ ... sive-line/

Some interesting info in this article.

I don’t necessarily agree with Coller on drafting skill position over OL. I think they should follow there board and draft BPA.

The o line problems are league problem(CBA). They need more practice time for these young o linemen. They are just nowhere near ready coming out of college, generally speaking.

There is just no way the Vikes are going to put together a mauler o line line some fans are pounding there fist on the the table for. It’s just unrealistic. They could possibly put together something line they had in 2017 under Shurmur and Sparano. They maximized the skill sets of that group. They need to get the right coaches and play callers and put together a system and scheme that compliments the skills of their linemen. That’s about the best we as fans can hope for in the short term.

Problem with that is we still have Curt “the statue” Cousins as our QB who needs elite lineman and skill players all the way down the depth chart to be successful. I think he will go down as one of the most bozo signings in Viking history.

Thanks for the link.

Coller refers to PFF so much in that article he might as well be working for them but setting that aside...

The problem I have with his take is it's focused on short term thinking. Coller states the Vikings should "be in win-now mode for the rest of Cousins’ tenure at QB" and I think that's precisely the wrong approach. It's the approach Spielman often takes and it leads to desperate moves and ongoing disappointment. This is NOT a team on the verge of winning the Super Bowl with one offseason of shrewd moves. That's a damaging delusion that's continued for years now. I haven't looked closely at the free agent market for o-linemen so it may be true that skill position players are the better bet in that area but the overall approach the Vikings should be taking is one that builds a solid foundation at the line of scrimmage for years to come. They should already be thinking beyond Cousins too, regardless of whether he turns out to be a long term solution.

I will agree this is not a team on the verge of a Super Bowl. Not with Cousins leading the offense. I just found it some of the information in the article regarding rookie o linemen interesting is all. I would be interesting to see how these players grade out according to PFF in the coming years. Just to get some trends on o linemen and how they develop relative to there draft positions. I suspect this information is already available somewhere. I just don’t have the time for the research.

[Alaskan]

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2019/ ... sive-line/

Some interesting info in this article.

I don’t necessarily agree with Coller on drafting skill position over OL. I think they should follow there board and draft BPA.

The o line problems are league problem(CBA). They need more practice time for these young o linemen. They are just nowhere near ready coming out of college, generally speaking.

There is just no way the Vikes are going to put together a mauler o line line some fans are pounding there fist on the the table for. It’s just unrealistic. They could possibly put together something line they had in 2017 under Shurmur and Sparano. They maximized the skill sets of that group. They need to get the right coaches and play callers and put together a system and scheme that compliments the skills of their linemen. That’s about the best we as fans can hope for in the short term.

Problem with that is we still have Curt “the statue” Cousins as our QB who needs elite lineman and skill players all the way down the depth chart to be successful. I think he will go down as one of the most bozo signings in Viking history.

Interesting article. While I agree with the author's argument that a #3 WR & a difference making TE would significantly help this team, NOT drafting an Offensive Lineman in the 1st round based his rationale (namely, that few rookie OL excel in year 1) is ridiculous. That's essentially what we have been doing--and what we did with Treadwell.

If Cody Ford is available at 18, I want him. If another highly ranked G is high on their board, take him. But I do agree that this draft is strong on DT, in particular, and who knows what we're planning to do with Sheldon. Everson is another major question mark. If there's a nasty difference maker at #18, you have to take him. But we also need to commit resources (draft picks, preferably) to the OL... we've neglected it for years. Cousin's isn't mobile and he's our QB for the next two years. We better figure out how to protect him better.

I am all I’m on either one of these guys. As long as they are BPA in the Vikings board at the time! Are these guys the type of players that will fit the scheme the Vikings plan to use? Pretty difficult to answer that without having an offensive coaching staff in place. I know nothing about these two guys. Do they project well in a zone scheme in the NFL? I assume that’s what the Vikes will be using next season.

[Alaskan]

As Vikings fans we must be suffering from amnesia. Did you guys not see what happened to our oline this season? You mean to tell me taking a CB (BPA) in round 1 and 2 would better serve this team? Lets stop with the myth about oline being a league-wide problem. No it is not. Many teams in the league have a great to good oline. We are at the bottom of most categories that reflect poorly on our oline. Not every team is as bad as us. We built a top defense and have great skill players at every position on offense and STILLLLLLLLL missed the playoffs. None of that matters. You build a team in the trenches. This is madness to still be talking about BPA. We have hugeeee holes on the oline. The guys we have there should be backups or on the street. Why must we continue to talk this nonsense about BPA. Its the same thing you guys said last season after the draft and I told you guys.... we will be in trouble this season due to the oline. Yet, here we are again. Until we develop this oline. We are doing nothing. I don't care if we draft Moses to play running back and Jesus to throw the ball. Our oline is that bad.

NFC Teams that made the playoffs with good olines.
Saints
Rams
Eagles
Cowboys

Teams that made the playoffs with Ok Olines
Bears
Seattle

Teams that made the playoffs with bad olines
Nobody
Nobody
Nobody
Nobody

Did you read the article? If you would have you would have seen that the rookies from last years crop grades out about the same as the Viking current guards. Wouldn’t have helped the team much in the Short term according to the analytics. Long term......who knows.

I am always gonna be BPA. I would hate to miss out on a real difference maker because we reach for a need. Follow the draft board.

Your entitled your view. A condescending tone won’t help u sell your point, that I can assure you of.

[YikesVikes]

As Vikings fans we must be suffering from amnesia. Did you guys not see what happened to our oline this season? You mean to tell me taking a CB (BPA) in round 1 and 2 would better serve this team? Lets stop with the myth about oline being a league-wide problem. No it is not. Many teams in the league have a great to good oline. We are at the bottom of most categories that reflect poorly on our oline. Not every team is as bad as us. We built a top defense and have great skill players at every position on offense and STILLLLLLLLL missed the playoffs. None of that matters. You build a team in the trenches. This is madness to still be talking about BPA. We have hugeeee holes on the oline. The guys we have there should be backups or on the street. Why must we continue to talk this nonsense about BPA. Its the same thing you guys said last season after the draft and I told you guys.... we will be in trouble this season due to the oline. Yet, here we are again. Until we develop this oline. We are doing nothing. I don't care if we draft Moses to play running back and Jesus to throw the ball. Our oline is that bad.

NFC Teams that made the playoffs with good olines.
Saints
Rams
Eagles
Cowboys

Teams that made the playoffs with Ok Olines
Bears
Seattle

Teams that made the playoffs with bad olines
Nobody
Nobody
Nobody
Nobody

Did you read the article? If you would have you would have seen that the rookies from last years crop grades out about the same as the Viking current guards. Wouldn’t have helped the team much in the Short term according to the analytics. Long term......who knows.

I am always gonna be BPA. I would hate to miss out on a real difference maker because we reach for a need. Follow the draft board.

Your entitled your view. A condescending tone won’t help u sell your point, that I can assure you of.

PFF knows #### about grading olinemen. Like seriously, don't believe them. It's a dumb strategy to go BPA. You draft BPA based on your needs. It's not condescending. It's suppose to point out how ridiculous it is to talk BPA. We did that last season and are outside looking in. We just did that. How did having Mike Hughes help the offense. Was a 5th CB really more important to us than a starting guard?

Why can't people understand that you have to add talent... Talent... Talent... To an oline. We have very little talent on our oline.

[Alaskan]

Did you read the article? If you would have you would have seen that the rookies from last years crop grades out about the same as the Viking current guards. Wouldn’t have helped the team much in the Short term according to the analytics. Long term......who knows.

I am always gonna be BPA. I would hate to miss out on a real difference maker because we reach for a need. Follow the draft board.

Your entitled your view. A condescending tone won’t help u sell your point, that I can assure you of.

PFF knows #### about grading olinemen. Like seriously, don't believe them. It's a dumb strategy to go BPA. You draft BPA based on your needs. It's not condescending. It's suppose to point out how ridiculous it is to talk BPA. We did that last season and are outside looking in. We just did that. How did having Mike Hughes help the offense. Was a 5th CB really more important to us than a starting guard?

Why can't people understand that you have to add talent... Talent... Talent... To an oline. We have very little talent on our oline.

In your infinite wisdom, Please, enlighten me. Who does know how to grade linemen? You? What are your credentials? I am serious?

Call me dumb for not agreeing with you on drafting BPA. Classy. Doesn’t change my opinion. Don’t really care what your thoughts are to be truely honest.

You don’t know what the plan is with all the corners. Let it play out. Last time I checked they are as in demand as good o linemen.

[PurpleMustReign]

Theres a lot of good posts in this thread. But I think the main problem on this Vikings team, is Rick Spielman. He simply doesnt know QB talent, Oline talent or WR talent. His scouts must do a horrible job too, esp. with QB scouting. Its going to hurt getting a new GM, probably a rough patch, but a good GM could take this team to, and win, the SB.

I don't think he's good at talent at all. Zimmer is a great defensive talent evaluator, hence our talented defense but offensively and special teams have been a struggle. He has missed a lot more than hit, especially with higher draft picks.
What I will give him credit for is late round talent. He always seems to find players who can contribute right away in the late rounds, which is not an easy thing to do.

[Mothman]

We all share a desperate desire to see our team FINALLY win the Super Bowl... and we aren't doing it without an OL.

Hope springs eternal, I guess. There is something really enjoyable about the NFL draft though. I was honestly somewhat pleased that we lost to CHI because I knew we weren't going to do anything in the playoffs this year and I wanted to get the best pick possible.

I felt the same way. Plus, losing a playoff game to a division rival is the worst and I think that was the likely outcome if the Vikes had come to Soldier Field last weekend.

Maybe what is most enjoyable about being a fan is imagining how we would handle the decisions of a GM? We all secretly want to replace Rick.

At least when it comes to the fun parts of his job.

Visions of Randall McDaniel are dancing through my head lately...

Yes, wouldn't it be nice to have a guard like him on the Vikings again?

Also, and I may be one of the few here who think the real benefit to a better OL won't be in the passing game as much as the running game, but I would like to see what a guy like Dalvin Cook could do with some actual holes to run through.

I'm with you 100% on that.

[Mothman]

I will agree this is not a team on the verge of a Super Bowl. Not with Cousins leading the offense. I just found it some of the information in the article regarding rookie o linemen interesting is all. I would be interesting to see how these players grade out according to PFF in the coming years. Just to get some trends on o linemen and how they develop relative to there draft positions. I suspect this information is already available somewhere. I just don’t have the time for the research.

The article did have some interesting info and I appreciate you sharing it. I probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise so thanks again!

[PurpleMustReign]

I will agree this is not a team on the verge of a Super Bowl. Not with Cousins leading the offense. I just found it some of the information in the article regarding rookie o linemen interesting is all. I would be interesting to see how these players grade out according to PFF in the coming years. Just to get some trends on o linemen and how they develop relative to there draft positions. I suspect this information is already available somewhere. I just don’t have the time for the research.

The article did have some interesting info and I appreciate you sharing it. I probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise so thanks again!

Fwiw I don't think we are as far from a super bowl as we were in 2010. I think we are closer. The defense has a lot of talent and depth. My biggest concern is time. Our defense isn't getting any younger.

[StumpHunter]

There is no doubt that you need a good line to win it all. I think Houston could have won with a more experienced QB though, and that the line wasn't the biggest problem. Watson threw the ball very poorly, even when he had time. He was basically a first year QB, and will come back next year with this game under his belt, and ready for playoff football, but this year, he wasn't.

On the season he completed 68% of his passes for 4100 yards 26 tds, All while missing his team's 2nd best WR. I don't think throwing the ball is an issue for him. His line sucks and it showed vs. comp.

I also think that the issues on our line are a bit overblown. They were asked to protect an immobile QB who held the ball too long, and gave up lots of pressures and sacks because of it. Games in which they could have had success running the ball (New England comes to mind) the OC refused to run the ball, driving down rushing stats that were never going to be good, but didn't need to be as bad as they were.

The issues with the line are not overblown. We can't run the ball and we can't pass protect. How can you overblow deficiencies is both aspects of the offense. I hate when people talk about a QB holding the ball too long. They rarely imagine that no one is open. You then explain that we have a problem running the ball consistently but then said the problems are overblown? Did you watch week 17? Do ou realize that prior to New England, we had only one game over 100 yards as a team.

I just look at what Foles did against the Bears, with nearly a second less to throw on average, while nearly doubling the distance he threw the ball on completed passes versus what Cousins threw against the Bears. You look at that, and I don't know how you can say the QB was not the problem. The line was not good, and an injured defense gave up to many rushing yards, but the QB gave them no shot at winning.

Foles also has one of the best Olines in the league. Top 3. You need to delete this paragraph.

You want to fix this team, teach the QB to get rid of the fricken ball quickly. He is talented enough to do it, and I think the right OC can get him there. I just hope that the media, fans, his teammates, and coaches don't continue to give him a pass "because the line is just so bad, what QB could win with it." That is a bunch of BS, and it flies in the face of the facts. That he had time to throw, he just couldn't do anything with it.

We were the 2nd or 3rd most pressured team in the league and you don't think we had a problem with the oline. We had games where a lineman gave up double-digit pressures and you think that was the QB's fault. None of this makes sense. Kirk is not Keenum athletically but what Remmers and Compton put outthere on film was could have them arrested for abuse.

There is no doubt that you need a good line to win it all. I think Houston could have won with a more experienced QB though, and that the line wasn't the biggest problem. Watson threw the ball very poorly, even when he had time. He was basically a first year QB, and will come back next year with this game under his belt, and ready for playoff football, but this year, he wasn't.

On the season he completed 68% of his passes for 4100 yards 26 tds, All while missing his team's 2nd best WR. I don't think throwing the ball is an issue for him. His line sucks and it showed vs. comp.

I also think that the issues on our line are a bit overblown. They were asked to protect an immobile QB who held the ball too long, and gave up lots of pressures and sacks because of it. Games in which they could have had success running the ball (New England comes to mind) the OC refused to run the ball, driving down rushing stats that were never going to be good, but didn't need to be as bad as they were.

The issues with the line are not overblown. We can't run the ball and we can't pass protect. How can you overblow deficiencies is both aspects of the offense. I hate when people talk about a QB holding the ball too long. They rarely imagine that no one is open. You then explain that we have a problem running the ball consistently but then said the problems are overblown? Did you watch week 17? Do ou realize that prior to New England, we had only one game over 100 yards as a team.

I just look at what Foles did against the Bears, with nearly a second less to throw on average, while nearly doubling the distance he threw the ball on completed passes versus what Cousins threw against the Bears. You look at that, and I don't know how you can say the QB was not the problem. The line was not good, and an injured defense gave up to many rushing yards, but the QB gave them no shot at winning.

Foles also has one of the best Olines in the league. Top 3. You need to delete this paragraph.

You want to fix this team, teach the QB to get rid of the fricken ball quickly. He is talented enough to do it, and I think the right OC can get him there. I just hope that the media, fans, his teammates, and coaches don't continue to give him a pass "because the line is just so bad, what QB could win with it." That is a bunch of BS, and it flies in the face of the facts. That he had time to throw, he just couldn't do anything with it.

We were the 2nd or 3rd most pressured team in the league and you don't think we had a problem with the oline. We had games where a lineman gave up double-digit pressures and you think that was the QB's fault. None of this makes sense. Kirk is not Keenum athletically but what Remmers and Compton put outthere on film was could have them arrested for abuse.

I will just go over these in order:

Yes Watson had a good season and was actually able to win enough games to get his team into the playoffs, despite a worse line than ours. When he got to the playoffs, he struggled. His throws were off target, he rushed passes and he didn’t play well. Something to be expected from a 2nd year guy who missed most of his first year. He will be better next year and I wish our GM hadn’t traded away our chance at drafting him.

I understand your frustration with people bringing up time to throw, it proves the QB was the problem, more than it was the Oline. We had one of the best WR tandems in football, I don’t think them getting open was the problem.

You think I am incorrect when I write the issues with the run game and pass blocking are overblown and then go on to say a team that had only 80 more rushing yards but a lower YPA than us, and gave up the same number of sacks and a higher sack percentage than us (despite a mobile QB for most of the season), had the 3rd best offensive line in football? I am not deleting anything. The Eagles line gave Foles less time to throw than the Vikings line gave Cousins versus the Bears. That is a fact. Not one you like, but that doesn’t make it not true.

Pressure stats are meaningless without the context of how long the QB held the ball before the pressure arrived. Pressure after 2 seconds is very different than pressure after 4, and our QB held the ball longer than the majority of the other pure pocket passers out there and was pressured more because of that. If your QB has more than 3 seconds to stand in the pocket before he is pressured, your line is doing a great job. Guess what happened week 17 versus the best pass rush in the NFL? 3.11 seconds to throw against the Hicks and Mack and only allowing pressure on 55% of the throws is a fantastic feat by this line.

I will add, that the fact the Eagles line regressed so much from last year to this, is a good reason not to go all in on the Oline. It seems almost impossible in this day and age to keep an elite line for longer than a year or two (due to injury and FAs), and the teams with success longterm on the line have that success because the QB helps the line out by getting rid of the ball quickly (Brady and Brees) or by buying time with his legs (Rogers). Fix the system, fix the QB, and magically the line won’t seem so bad anymore.

[Mothman]

I understand your frustration with people bringing up time to throw, it proves the QB was the problem, more than it was the Oline. We had one of the best WR tandems in football, I don’t think them getting open was the problem.

Sometimes it was...

One of the issues I'm seeing with arguments about this subject here on the board is that there was no singular problem so there is no singular answer.

The Vikings o-line did not have a good season. They are not a good line. They are A problem but not the only problem.

Cousins sometimes holds onto the ball too long. That is also a problem. Vikings receivers don't always get open so sometimes that's a problem too and it means Cousins has to either hold onto the ball until a receiver comes open, the protection breaks down or he can throw it away.

Sometimes routes develop slowly and the protection is insufficient. All of the above were factors so there's no singular issue to be resolved.

Another issue in these arguments is that averages are just averages. An average time to throw or an average ypc on the ground can look fine for a game or a season but the devil, as they say, is in the details. For example, if a QB drops back 12 times and has an average of 2.5 seconds to throw on 10 of those dropbacks but manages to go 5 seconds before getting rid of the ball on the other 2 plays, his average time to throw on those 12 plays would be 2.91 seconds but his actual time to throw on the majority of those plays was quite a bit less. I know all of you understand this but sometimes it's helpful to just look at a concrete reminder and remember that stats can be deceptive. We can draw conclusions from them but only so much.

Fix the system, fix the QB, and magically the line won’t seem so bad anymore.

Build a better line and the QB and running game will suddenly look a lot better.

We're not looking at a singular problem. It's a combination of factors. The Vikes need better OL play, better QB play, better playcalling, etc.

[The negotiator]

I understand your frustration with people bringing up time to throw, it proves the QB was the problem, more than it was the Oline. We had one of the best WR tandems in football, I don’t think them getting open was the problem.

Sometimes it was...

One of the issues I'm seeing with arguments about this subject here on the board is that there was no singular problem so there is no singular answer.

The Vikings o-line did not have a good season. They are not a good line. They are A problem but not the only problem.

Cousins sometimes holds onto the ball too long. That is also a problem. Vikings receivers don't always get open so sometimes that's a problem too and it means Cousins has to either hold onto the ball until a receiver comes open, the protection breaks down or he can throw it away.

Sometimes routes develop slowly and the protection is insufficient. All of the above were factors so there's no singular issue to be resolved.

Another issue in these arguments is that averages are just averages. An average time to throw or an average ypc on the ground can look fine for a game or a season but the devil, as they say, is in the details. For example, if a QB drops back 12 times and has an average of 2.5 seconds to throw on 10 of those dropbacks but manages to go 5 seconds before getting rid of the ball on the other 2 plays, his average time to throw on those 12 plays would be 2.91 seconds but his actual time to throw on the majority of those plays was quite a bit less. I know all of you understand this but sometimes it's helpful to just look at a concrete reminder and remember that stats can be deceptive. We can draw conclusions from them but only so much.

Fix the system, fix the QB, and magically the line won’t seem so bad anymore.

Build a better line and the QB and running game will suddenly look a lot better.

We're not looking at a singular problem. It's a combination of factors. The Vikes need better OL play, better QB play, better playcalling, etc.

Good post Jim. You are the Voice of Reason.