Maybe now you'll believe

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:50 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:29 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:30 pm

As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again."

Let me preface this by saying two things. 1. I'm supposed to be on break from this board, but my name is Kapp, and I'm a boardaholic. 2. Kirk Cousins did not play well yesterday ... nobody is making that argument, most notably me.

But ... you are talking out your butt if you think Cousins had time to throw against the Bears.

According to PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured more than he wasn't against the Bears. On 38 dropbacks, he was pressured 21 times and not pressured 17 times. TWENTY-ONE PRESSURES. There are maybe, MAYBE three quarterbacks in the league who can survive, let alone play well in that kind of environment. Their names are Rodgers, Wilson and Watson. That's it.

Our offensive line is historically bad. Even Pat Elflein, who we somehow think is good, gave up 33 pressures on the season. The starting center for the 4-12 Raiders gave up 5. And Elflein was actually not the worst O-lineman on the team. That would be a tie between Remmers and Compton.

Cousins stunk up the joint yesterday. But it was inevitable. The O-line, already the worst in the league, played its worst game of the season.
He had 3.11 seconds on average to throw, which was 4th longest in the NFL and nearly a second longer than Trubiskey had. The shortest sack came at 3.7 seconds.

It wasn't a great game by the Oline, but the numbers don't lie. He had time to throw, the longest of any game this season from what I can see, he just couldn't get it done with that time.

A tough pill to swallow I know, but those are the facts. Facts that will continued to be ignored by most fans and the sports media in this town, because it means that even if we fix the line, the odds of us winning a SB with this QB are almost non-existent.
Well, I guess it's a matter of what facts one chooses to use as the barometer. I'm not arguing the average time to throw. However, that number can be skewed greatly by a couple of 5-second opportunities, whereas percentage of dropbacks is pretty much binary. Getting pressured on 56% of dropbacks is a significant number. Honestly, it's a ridiculously unacceptable number. I'd also be interested in seeing what the pressure percentage was on particular downs, such as third down.

Again, I'm not saying Cousins played well. Far from it. As he has a number of times this year, he got flustered when the heat was on. And some of the things I learned about him during the game, such as how he plans out each day on a spreadsheet in 10-minute increments, explain a LOT about his personality and why he doesn't thrive under pressure. My opinion of his abilities -- not his physical abilities, but the mental toughness side -- has certainly changed as the season has gone along. So I'm not an apologist.

However, you have to admit that we also have perhaps the worst offensive line in football, especially on the interior. Interestingly, at least by my recollection, Khalil Mack didn't cause THAT much trouble Sunday .... it was the 3 down linemen beating up on Compton, Elflein and Remmers. It was the perfect storm. Cousins was not sharp, and an already terrible O-line played its worst game since the Buffalo debacle.

Can you meet me halfway at least?
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:26 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:50 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:29 am


He had 3.11 seconds on average to throw, which was 4th longest in the NFL and nearly a second longer than Trubiskey had. The shortest sack came at 3.7 seconds.

It wasn't a great game by the Oline, but the numbers don't lie. He had time to throw, the longest of any game this season from what I can see, he just couldn't get it done with that time.

A tough pill to swallow I know, but those are the facts. Facts that will continued to be ignored by most fans and the sports media in this town, because it means that even if we fix the line, the odds of us winning a SB with this QB are almost non-existent.
Well, I guess it's a matter of what facts one chooses to use as the barometer. I'm not arguing the average time to throw. However, that number can be skewed greatly by a couple of 5-second opportunities, whereas percentage of dropbacks is pretty much binary. Getting pressured on 56% of dropbacks is a significant number. Honestly, it's a ridiculously unacceptable number. I'd also be interested in seeing what the pressure percentage was on particular downs, such as third down.

Again, I'm not saying Cousins played well. Far from it. As he has a number of times this year, he got flustered when the heat was on. And some of the things I learned about him during the game, such as how he plans out each day on a spreadsheet in 10-minute increments, explain a LOT about his personality and why he doesn't thrive under pressure. My opinion of his abilities -- not his physical abilities, but the mental toughness side -- has certainly changed as the season has gone along. So I'm not an apologist.

However, you have to admit that we also have perhaps the worst offensive line in football, especially on the interior. Interestingly, at least by my recollection, Khalil Mack didn't cause THAT much trouble Sunday .... it was the 3 down linemen beating up on Compton, Elflein and Remmers. It was the perfect storm. Cousins was not sharp, and an already terrible O-line played its worst game since the Buffalo debacle.

Can you meet me halfway at least?
Oh I totally agree the interior of the line wasn't good this season. Where I think we differ is on how much of an impact that had on this failures this year, versus Cousins not being very good against good teams. I don't think two new solid guards makes Cousins not choke in prime time or against playoff caliber teams.

I also want to point out that pressure will come, no matter how good the line is, if the QB holds the ball too long. Judging by the time to throw Cousins had, it seems like he brought a lot of those pressures on himself.

Right now, there are 20 team's fans that are saying that they have the worst line in football, and who are blaming their lines for their teams failure to make the playoffs. Our situation isn't unique and offensive lines are "the problem" all over the league. Some teams, like Houston are able to overcome those bad lines and still make the playoffs because their QBs don't suck. Most don't have that luxury.

I do think maybe with a top 3 Oline we can win it all with Cousins. He is behind the Rams line, with this defense and receivers and we can win. Should be easy enough to accomplish...
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by Maelstrom88 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm

Per PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured on 55.8% of his dropbacks (21-38) vs Chicago and threw 17 passes from a clean pocket. The OLine surrendered a league-high 23 pressures, bringing their total to 227 for the year (worst in the NFL).

Other teams may have fans saying they have the worst oline in the league.. bit we actually do.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:24 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm
Per PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured on 55.8% of his dropbacks (21-38) vs Chicago and threw 17 passes from a clean pocket. The OLine surrendered a league-high 23 pressures, bringing their total to 227 for the year (worst in the NFL).

Other teams may have fans saying they have the worst oline in the league.. bit we actually do.
Pressures don't tell the whole story. It does not matter how good a line is, if the QB holds the ball too long he will get pressured.

Other teams don't have QBs who hold the ball forever AND refuse to move to avoid a rush. We do.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by Maelstrom88 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:24 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm
Per PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured on 55.8% of his dropbacks (21-38) vs Chicago and threw 17 passes from a clean pocket. The OLine surrendered a league-high 23 pressures, bringing their total to 227 for the year (worst in the NFL).

Other teams may have fans saying they have the worst oline in the league.. bit we actually do.
Pressures don't tell the whole story. It does not matter how good a line is, if the QB holds the ball too long he will get pressured.

Other teams don't have QBs who hold the ball forever AND refuse to move to avoid a rush. We do.

I agree he has no mobility but I'd have to go back and watch the games to see if he holds the ball too long consistently. Qbs do have to have an internal clock and I think he lacks that to a certain extent. I'd rather he hold it than throw a pick though. I just seem to remember our oline pretending to be matadors more often. I wouldn't say Cousins holds it like Big Ben but blame can go both ways to a certain extent. They knew he was a statue when they signed him though. They also should have known the line sucked and the coaches should have never asked him to do anything more than a three step drop without extra blockers especially versus the Bears.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by 808vikingsfan » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:24 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm
Per PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured on 55.8% of his dropbacks (21-38) vs Chicago and threw 17 passes from a clean pocket. The OLine surrendered a league-high 23 pressures, bringing their total to 227 for the year (worst in the NFL).

Other teams may have fans saying they have the worst oline in the league.. bit we actually do.
Pressures don't tell the whole story. It does not matter how good a line is, if the QB holds the ball too long he will get pressured.

Other teams don't have QBs who hold the ball forever AND refuse to move to avoid a rush. We do.
Exactly. How come we can dismiss most stats from PFF but pressures are sketched in stone? A QB can make his own pressure. He can also do a lot to evade it. Time to Throw is a measurement, not a judgement call.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by PurpleMustReign » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:35 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:24 pm

Pressures don't tell the whole story. It does not matter how good a line is, if the QB holds the ball too long he will get pressured.

Other teams don't have QBs who hold the ball forever AND refuse to move to avoid a rush. We do.
Exactly. How come we can dismiss most stats from PFF but pressures are sketched in stone? A QB can make his own pressure. He can also do a lot to evade it. Time to Throw is a measurement, not a judgement call.
PFF is a joke. They try to make numbers on things that don't tell a whole story. You guys are discussing a great example.
I will contend this is the most important stat 13-3 vs. 8-7-1.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by Raptorman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:17 pm

Since it's a team game. While he has a lot to do with it, No QB carries a team on his own. Last year the D gave up 15.8 ppg while the offense had 23.5 ppg. This year the D gave up 21.3 ppg and offense had 22.5 ppg. That's a 6 point difference on defense. Both are important. Also note I read somewhere that last years D starters only had 8 games missed as opposed to 38 games missed this year. I will not blame any one player for the bad season, just like I will not exclaim that any one player is the result of a successful season. NO one player on a team operates in a vacuum.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by S197 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:53 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:30 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:20 am
Oline wasn't the problem people are making it out to be yesterday. Run blocking they struggled, but Cousins had time to throw.
As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again."

Let me preface this by saying two things. 1. I'm supposed to be on break from this board, but my name is Kapp, and I'm a boardaholic. 2. Kirk Cousins did not play well yesterday ... nobody is making that argument, most notably me.

But ... you are talking out your butt if you think Cousins had time to throw against the Bears.

According to PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured more than he wasn't against the Bears. On 38 dropbacks, he was pressured 21 times and not pressured 17 times. TWENTY-ONE PRESSURES. There are maybe, MAYBE three quarterbacks in the league who can survive, let alone play well in that kind of environment. Their names are Rodgers, Wilson and Watson. That's it.

Our offensive line is historically bad. Even Pat Elflein, who we somehow think is good, gave up 33 pressures on the season. The starting center for the 4-12 Raiders gave up 5. And Elflein was actually not the worst O-lineman on the team. That would be a tie between Remmers and Compton.

Cousins stunk up the joint yesterday. But it was inevitable. The O-line, already the worst in the league, played its worst game of the season.
This is something I've been meaning to bring up, I think Elflein is very overrated on this forum. He frequently lets guys through the A-gap either via failing to identify a blitz or not helping double team a DT. I'm not saying he's bad, but it seems many here think he's pretty good and I don't see it. He looks average at best to me. To be fair, that could be because he's bookended by terrible guards, we can only hope.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by S197 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:01 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm
Per PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured on 55.8% of his dropbacks (21-38) vs Chicago and threw 17 passes from a clean pocket. The OLine surrendered a league-high 23 pressures, bringing their total to 227 for the year (worst in the NFL).

Other teams may have fans saying they have the worst oline in the league.. bit we actually do.
What makes this stat worse is the OL's inability to run block. How many 1st down rushes went for zero yards? Cousins is a statue, yet he scrambled for a 1st down that was called back for holding.

We were the last team in the NFL to have a 100 yard rusher. I think we also led for % of time RBs were hit in the backfield, at one point it was something like 44%. A single stat in a vacuum may not tell much, but when "last" and "worst" keep coming up, it's a problem.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by PurpleMustReign » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:12 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:53 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:30 pm

As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again."

Let me preface this by saying two things. 1. I'm supposed to be on break from this board, but my name is Kapp, and I'm a boardaholic. 2. Kirk Cousins did not play well yesterday ... nobody is making that argument, most notably me.

But ... you are talking out your butt if you think Cousins had time to throw against the Bears.

According to PFF, Kirk Cousins was pressured more than he wasn't against the Bears. On 38 dropbacks, he was pressured 21 times and not pressured 17 times. TWENTY-ONE PRESSURES. There are maybe, MAYBE three quarterbacks in the league who can survive, let alone play well in that kind of environment. Their names are Rodgers, Wilson and Watson. That's it.

Our offensive line is historically bad. Even Pat Elflein, who we somehow think is good, gave up 33 pressures on the season. The starting center for the 4-12 Raiders gave up 5. And Elflein was actually not the worst O-lineman on the team. That would be a tie between Remmers and Compton.

Cousins stunk up the joint yesterday. But it was inevitable. The O-line, already the worst in the league, played its worst game of the season.
This is something I've been meaning to bring up, I think Elflein is very overrated on this forum. He frequently lets guys through the A-gap either via failing to identify a blitz or not helping double team a DT. I'm not saying he's bad, but it seems many here think he's pretty good and I don't see it. He looks average at best to me. To be fair, that could be because he's bookended by terrible guards, we can only hope.
Elflein looked really good last year but I don't think he was healthy at all this year. I remember last year seeing him maul guys and block downfield. He seemed to be pushed back a lot more this season.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:44 pm

indianation65 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:38 am
The initial post is spot on.

Living in Dallas since '75, I've had my fill of Cowboys fans, but then again, they've got lots of room to brag.

Emmitt Smith is a dang good running back, but without that offensive line he had, there is no way people would ever consider him one of the best backs ever. He can thank B.Sanders for retiring.

Emmitt ran through holes, and racked up yardage because he rarely was tackled/touched until he was 1-3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. I'm not beating up E.Smith, he was good, very good, so was M.Irvin and Aikman, but the O-line was way better! The men on the line were beasts.

Cousins and Keenum both played with a mediocre to bad O-line, but somehow the Vikes managed last year. Of course, "heartbreak" reared its ugly head once again for the Vikings Nation.

Regardless, constantly working on the fingers and toes is fine, but if the core, the heart, lungs and the "gut" is/are ignored, the body will fail.

Go Vikes!

...wisdom? Heck, I don't know anymore. I'd so frustrated with the O-line, and the coaching I see another simply hoping the teams I hate do NOT win another SB.
I'll be honest, I'm conservative in my life-style, but not when it comes to sports. I want my coaches to motivate their teams to score, score and score some more, whether it's my Vikings, my Mavericks or my Dallas Stars, I want to score MORE than the opponent! IN65
When I started reading this thread, I planned to use the Dallas analogy at the end, but you beat me to it. I agree 100% and it's what I've been saying for years and years. Smith was a good running back, but not a Hall Of Famer if it had not been for that OL. They opened holes you could drive a car through. A good OL makes everyone else on the offense look better. Could you imagine what Barry Sanders would have done on those Cowboys teams?

Problem is, if there aren't great O-lineman available, what do you do? Or maybe a more important question might be, what if you have no one that can recognize a good O-Lineman?
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by Texas Vike » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:54 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:44 pm
what if you have no one that can recognize a good O-Lineman?
This is what I fear.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:09 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
Exactly. How come we can dismiss most stats from PFF but pressures are sketched in stone?
I'm happy to dismiss PFF's pressure stats. :) I think they're borderline useless.
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Re: Maybe now you'll believe

Post by PurpleMustReign » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:23 am

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:09 am
808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
Exactly. How come we can dismiss most stats from PFF but pressures are sketched in stone?
I'm happy to dismiss PFF's pressure stats. :) I think they're borderline useless.
Replace borderline with completely.
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