Kirk Cousins is having an MVP season

[StumpHunter]

Oh so that's idiotic to say? When Adrian Peterson had his 2nd best season EVER when we had a legit quarterback here in 2009. So dont sit there and say he doesnt help the passing game. That's like saying Todd Gurley doesnt help the Rams passing game. And I'm sure you'll go down the "Well AP couldnt catch the ball" road. He didnt have the "greatest" hands in the world but the guy could still catch the football and was dangerous in open space. AP also had his BEST season ever receiving the ball in 2009 when we actually had a good QB here and it was by a significant amount. When you have a RB that dangerous, you load the box as a defense. In turn, that opens up more in the passing game because teams were so worried about Peterson. Teams ASKED Teddy Bridgewater to beat them with his arm. His numbers alone showed he couldnt really do that. Because when the running game failed, the team failed. When the running game was working, we won.

Yes, when hall of fame QB Brett Favre was here, in a completely different offense (basically with Favre himself calling the plays), with an AP in his prime, it worked. In 2015 with Norv and 2nd year QB Teddy Bridgewater, it didn’t. In 2017 with the Saints HOF QB Drew Brees it didn’t work. If AP didn’t hurt the passing game, I wonder why the Saints refused to play him? You keep deluding yourself on this though.

Here are the facts, when AP was held in check. When playing some of the best defenses in the NFL (because the lousy defenses struggled to stop him) Teddy was asked to throw more. In the 9 games where AP was held to under a 100 yards, against the better defenses the Vikings faced in 2015 (including the SB winning Denver Broncos defense), Teddy averaged twice as many TDs, 120 more yards per game and fewer ints. If that isn’t enough statistical evidence that AP hurt the passing game, I don’t know what more you need.

I am not going to sit here and pretend AP didn’t help the offense and the team in general win, but he hurt his QB. Plain and simple.

This is what you dont get. It's better to be "locked into a bad QB for a year". No! It's not. Because if and when that idea fails, we are back to the drawing board and need to draft a rookie QB, which in turn, wastes yet another year. And then we are heading into 2020, where we have most big names signed until, sitting and "hoping" our 2nd year QB makes a jump because our SB window is a year or so away from possibly closing. Kirk Cousins had 3 years of consistent play. Kirk Cousins is a top 10-12 QB in this league. He isnt a "bad" QB and we can surround him with a ton of talent. That is way more of a sure thing than to just take a shot on a below average QB hoping he has a Keenum miracle year and can bring us to a SB somehow. This is the QUARTERBACK position man. Not weakside linebacker or offensive guard where you can just plug in a below average guy and hide him. You cant mob-job the QB position and expect to have success. And not just in one year. Year after year. It's near impossible.

I disagree. Being tied down to a QB who’s contract hurts your ability to make the team better only works if that QB makes up for it by making the team better himself. He has not done that so far and so far, this team has not proven it is good enough to win against good teams with him at the helm. This is feeling more and more like Andy Dalton QB purgatory, and Cousins better play his butt off against Seattle this weekend.

Of course you leave out completion percentage lol. And Case did that in 15 games. Kirk has done that in 12 games. And again, Keenum rode that year on luck, literally. I've gone into detail multiple times regarding that but you seem to forget. Also, who gives a SH** what he did last year. What matter is right NOW.

You seem to struggle with the concept that completion percentage is a part of YPA and that a higher completion percentage and lower YPA means the QB is making less challenging throws. It isn’t a good thing guy.

I care what Keenum did last year, because like you elude too with your comment about the run game, it matters who is playing around the QB. I think Denver has solid WRs, but they are not nearly as good as what he had last year, and what Cousins has this year. Again, I don’t think Keenum is a good QB, which is why Cousins putting up worse numbers is so troubling.

Classic Cousins hater comment lol. His stats are because of "garbage time!!" You're a hater. We get it. You dont need to continue to stress that. But to support below average QBs makes zero sense.

I don’t believe Keenum had the opportunity to face a lot of prevent defenses in 2017, but I could be misremembering. I do know Cousins has what, 3-4 TDs now when the game was out of reach? Out of reach because he put us there. Oops sorry, because the Oline put us there. I guess those count, but I would prefer my QB throw TDs when they actually matter.

[PurpleMustReign]

More numbers huh. So if an offense averages 800 yards per game but only scores FGs, is that a good offense?
I'm so sick of seeing numbers. Numbers tell only a small part of any story in sports. The Patriots stats are very pedistrian, but I guarantee they will be there in the end like they are every year.
Show me how a QB drives down the field with the game on the line. Show me how a defense can stop the other offense on 3rd and 2 with a minute left to get the ball to their offense for that drive. Show me a team who can WIN a tough road game with some consistency rather than getting a moral victory each time. Then I'll be happy. Until you can show me situations like that, stats are nothing but numbers.
Wins and losses matter. Doesn't matter how you win or how you lose, it matters that you do.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Yes, when hall of fame QB Brett Favre was here, in a completely different offense (basically with Favre himself calling the plays), with an AP in his prime, it worked. In 2015 with Norv and 2nd year QB Teddy Bridgewater, it didn’t. In 2017 with the Saints HOF QB Drew Brees it didn’t work. If AP didn’t hurt the passing game, I wonder why the Saints refused to play him? You keep deluding yourself on this though.

Whether AP was in his prime or not, why does that matter?? He led the NFL in rushing in 2015 and was still dominant. You're trying to say AP was in his prime in 09 but not in 2015 but then you fail to mention that Favre was 40 years old Hall of fame QB or not, he was 40 years old and yeah it worked. You're now nitpicking times it "didnt work". Bottom line is, a good RB hardly EVER causes a passing game to be bad unless your QB is bad. Look at top RBs out there. Gurley, Gordon, Bell/Conner, Hunt, Kamara/Ingram, etc. They all have legit passing games.

I mean dude, it's simply common sense that you somehow cant grasp. If you are a DC and you're playing a team that has a legit QB that can beat you with his arm and a Todd Gurley type RB in the backfield, who do you scheme against??!! It's extremely tough. But if you have a legit RB but a QB that cant beat you with his arm, it's much easier. If you have a legit QB and bad RBs or run game, its much easier. How is that so hard to comprehend? Keenum had a run game last year. 7th to be exact. We do not have one this year (30th). Not because we have bad RBs but because we have an awful offensive coordinator that runs a completely unbalanced, predictable system.

Here are the facts, when AP was held in check. When playing some of the best defenses in the NFL (because the lousy defenses struggled to stop him) Teddy was asked to throw more. In the 9 games where AP was held to under a 100 yards, against the better defenses the Vikings faced in 2015 (including the SB winning Denver Broncos defense), Teddy averaged twice as many TDs, 120 more yards per game and fewer ints. If that isn’t enough statistical evidence that AP hurt the passing game, I don’t know what more you need.

Averaged twice as many TDs??? He threw 14 of them on the year. He threw 4 TDs against the Bears (middle of the road defense at best) and they were out of the playoffs. Outside of that, there was ONE game he threw more than 1 TD pass. The lions. Also a middle of the road defense. So you're basing your stats off what? He had SIX games, SEVEN counting playoffs where he threw 0 TD passes. That is downright pathetic. Blame the run game, blame the coach, blame the line, whatever. That is terrible for a 2nd year QB. I mean Christian Ponder put up better numbers in his 2nd year. Made the playoffs. Had a similar record and had Adrian Peterson. And put up better numbers than Teddy did in his second year. Yeah....Ponder.

Dont have the time to address the rest. I've wasted enough time today

[fiestavike]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

[StumpHunter]

Dont have the time to address the rest. I've wasted enough time today

You say that but you just keep coming back with great takes like:

Favre wasn't that good in 2009 because he was 40
and
Teddy Bridgewater isn't as good as Christian Ponder, because passing TDs.
and
The 2012 2nd greatest season by a running back is the same as the 2015 96th greatest season by a running back.

Please don't go, this has made my day.

[Raptorman]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

Man, I'm so tired of this "We need to clear some of Cousins cap room to sign.........." BS.

Vikings QB cap space, percentage of cap.
2016 8.06%
2017 13.27%
2018 13.86%
2019 15.67% 2 players signed
2020 16.58% 1 player signed

Packers
2016 12.18%
2017 12.05%
2018 12.19%
2019 14.52% 3 players signed.
2020 18.40% 3 players signed

Saints.
2018 15.13%
2019 17.94% 2 players signed.
2020 0%

Panthers
2018 12.23%
2019 12.14% 1 player signed.
2020 11.24% 1 player

Redskins
2018 12.44%
2019 14.20% 3 players.
2020 11.40% 1 player

Will they redo Cousins contract to make some room? Most likely. But his contract isn't hurting the Vikings like everyone claims it is. The Vikings sit in 4th from the top in QB spending through 2020 at this point. Rams, Chiefs, Patriots, Saints, Bears, Skins, Eagles, Giants all have QB's on cap friendly or rookie deals. By 2020, the Vikings will around 10th in the league in cap hit for QB's. Only 2 teams spend more than the Vikings on defense. Jacksonville and Houston. Only 8 teams spend more on defense than offense. And most of those have QB's on their rookie contract.

[fiestavike]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

Man, I'm so tired of this "We need to clear some of Cousins cap room to sign.........." BS.

Vikings QB cap space, percentage of cap.
2016 8.06%
2017 13.27%
2018 13.86%
2019 15.67% 2 players signed
2020 16.58% 1 player signed

Packers
2016 12.18%
2017 12.05%
2018 12.19%
2019 14.52% 3 players signed.
2020 18.40% 3 players signed

Saints.
2018 15.13%
2019 17.94% 2 players signed.
2020 0%

Panthers
2018 12.23%
2019 12.14% 1 player signed.
2020 11.24% 1 player

Redskins
2018 12.44%
2019 14.20% 3 players.
2020 11.40% 1 player

Will they redo Cousins contract to make some room? Most likely. But his contract isn't hurting the Vikings like everyone claims it is. The Vikings sit in 4th from the top in QB spending through 2020 at this point. Rams, Chiefs, Patriots, Saints, Bears, Skins, Eagles, Giants all have QB's on cap friendly or rookie deals. By 2020, the Vikings will around 10th in the league in cap hit for QB's. Only 2 teams spend more than the Vikings on defense. Jacksonville and Houston. Only 8 teams spend more on defense than offense. And most of those have QB's on their rookie contract.

re-read, re-analyze, re-compute. I didn't say anything about Cousins restructuring.

[Pondering Her Percy]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

I guess what I don’t understand and why some fans are so worried about cap room when it comes to getting guards. Why do we need to get guards in FA?? We can easily draft a guard. And if we’re smart we cut Remmers. There’s your cleared cap space. Sign a FA guard and draft one. Or draft two guards. We have a lot of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Remmers is expendable. Cut dead weight and we can solve the problem. Lately, FA offensive lineman have no been working out for a lot of the nfl anyways. I don’t want two free agent guards. I want at least one guard drafted high

[Raptorman]

re-read, re-analyze, re-compute. I didn't say anything about Cousins restructuring.

No, you didn't. But it has been said before. "We paid him too much." Your's just happened to be the post that keyed me in on the issue once again.

[Pondering Her Percy]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

Man, I'm so tired of this "We need to clear some of Cousins cap room to sign.........." BS.

Vikings QB cap space, percentage of cap.
2016 8.06%
2017 13.27%
2018 13.86%
2019 15.67% 2 players signed
2020 16.58% 1 player signed

Packers
2016 12.18%
2017 12.05%
2018 12.19%
2019 14.52% 3 players signed.
2020 18.40% 3 players signed

Saints.
2018 15.13%
2019 17.94% 2 players signed.
2020 0%

Panthers
2018 12.23%
2019 12.14% 1 player signed.
2020 11.24% 1 player

Redskins
2018 12.44%
2019 14.20% 3 players.
2020 11.40% 1 player

Will they redo Cousins contract to make some room? Most likely. But his contract isn't hurting the Vikings like everyone claims it is. The Vikings sit in 4th from the top in QB spending through 2020 at this point. Rams, Chiefs, Patriots, Saints, Bears, Skins, Eagles, Giants all have QB's on cap friendly or rookie deals. By 2020, the Vikings will around 10th in the league in cap hit for QB's. Only 2 teams spend more than the Vikings on defense. Jacksonville and Houston. Only 8 teams spend more on defense than offense. And most of those have QB's on their rookie contract.

Didn’t see this when I just posted my last post but I’m glad someone else sees that. Guys act like we’re dead in the water because cousins got a big contract. Bryzinski is a cap wizard and pretty much all of our big time players are locked up through 2020 and beyond. The last thing I’m worried about is cap space

[Pondering Her Percy]

Dont have the time to address the rest. I've wasted enough time today

You say that but you just keep coming back with great takes like:

Favre wasn't that good in 2009 because he was 40
and
Teddy Bridgewater isn't as good as Christian Ponder, because passing TDs.
and
The 2012 2nd greatest season by a running back is the same as the 2015 96th greatest season by a running back.

Please don't go, this has made my day.

Because you’ve done nothing but twist my words to try and help your argument.

Never once did I say Favre wasn’t any good. You mentioned AP “in his prime” when Favre played but ignored the fact that he had nearly as good of a year when Teddy was there and led the league in rushing. AP being in his prime had nothing to do with anything. He was just as good in 2009 as he was in 2015.

Also, never did I say Teddy wasn’t as good as Ponder. I was pointing out that in ponders second year he showed just as much “improvement” (or lack thereof) that Teddy did. Point being, that’s not a good sign when a 2nd year QB shows little improvement in his 2nd year. The legit QBs in this league, especially as of late, show drastic improvement. Teddy didn’t. Then tears up his knee, sits out of football for a few years and is now back and a complete question mark. Then he wasn’t signed as a starter anywhere but you somehow think it was a good idea to keep him of all QBs as our starter and not sign cousins. I’d sign Keenum and deal with his inconsistencies before I sign Teddy as our starter.

And again, go back and read my post. I said APs 2009 season was HIS second best season ever when he actually had a legit QB. Never said a word about the 2012 Adrian Peterson.

So there are 3 things that you completely twisted, misread, didn’t read, etc just to try and help your argument. And in the end, it made you look foolish because none of that is what I said. You’re drawing dead at this point. So I’m done with you. We’ve clogged this thread up enough. Agree to disagree.

[fiestavike]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

I guess what I don’t understand and why some fans are so worried about cap room when it comes to getting guards. Why do we need to get guards in FA?? We can easily draft a guard. And if we’re smart we cut Remmers. There’s your cleared cap space. Sign a FA guard and draft one. Or draft two guards. We have a lot of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Remmers is expendable. Cut dead weight and we can solve the problem. Lately, FA offensive lineman have no been working out for a lot of the nfl anyways. I don’t want two free agent guards. I want at least one guard drafted high

They could clear cap room. We'll see what happens. Yes, they could cut Remmers and save about 2/3 to 3/5 of what it would take to sign a new guard. I'm not against the idea. On the other hand, Hill will be a free agent so behind Reiff and O'Neill they currently have Aviante Collins. Remmers would be a solid backup T/G. That's a position worth investing in. Anyway, there are lots of ways they could clear cap, but of all people on this board, I think you would be most vehement in your objection to actually going forward with ANY of them, Rudolph, Griffin, Sendejo, Waynes? Will you be okay if we don't keep Murray? Barr? Richardson? The one you advocate for getting rid of (Remmers) is probably the one we would miss the most! Anyway, I think they need help at G ASAP, and I think FA is the best bet to do that in the short term. By all means, draft a couple guys too, and while we're at it, get Compton and Remmers out of there now and get the young guys some snaps to see if they can develop before these decisions have to be made.

[Raptorman]

I guess what I don’t understand and why some fans are so worried about cap room when it comes to getting guards. Why do we need to get guards in FA?? We can easily draft a guard. And if we’re smart we cut Remmers. There’s your cleared cap space. Sign a FA guard and draft one. Or draft two guards. We have a lot of money tied up in Reiff and Remmers. Remmers is expendable. Cut dead weight and we can solve the problem. Lately, FA offensive lineman have no been working out for a lot of the nfl anyways. I don’t want two free agent guards. I want at least one guard drafted high

They could clear cap room. We'll see what happens. Yes, they could cut Remmers and save about 2/3 to 3/5 of what it would take to sign a new guard. I'm not against the idea. On the other hand, Hill will be a free agent so behind Reiff and O'Neill they currently have Aviante Collins. Remmers would be a solid backup T/G. That's a position worth investing in. Anyway, there are lots of ways they could clear cap, but of all people on this board, I think you would be most vehement in your objection to actually going forward with ANY of them, Rudolph, Griffin, Sendejo, Waynes? Will you be okay if we don't keep Murray? Barr? Richardson? The one you advocate for getting rid of (Remmers) is probably the one we would miss the most! Anyway, I think they need help at G ASAP, and I think FA is the best bet to do that in the short term. By all means, draft a couple guys too, and while we're at it, get Compton and Remmers out of there now and get the young guys some snaps to see if they can develop before these decisions have to be made.

Here's a list of F/A in 2019. So who do we go after?

http://nfltraderumors.co/2019-nfl-free-agents-list/

[808vikingsfan]

No less our OL is on pace to SET A RECORD for pressures given up in a season with 260+. And it will shatter the record. So tell me how Kirk Cousins is the problem?

I'll take a crack at that. I'd argue that he holds the ball too long and brings a lot of those pressures on himself. Despite him "shattering the record" for most pressures, he's actually pretty close to average in "time to throw". He ranks 21st with 2.67 seconds. Keeping in mind that the differences these QBs have are generally fractions of a second. From 15th place to last place are .1 seconds apart or less. The average time to throw is 2.74 and Kirk gets 2.67.

What that says to me is a good number of Cousins pressures/sacks are a result of him holding the ball too long. Which matches what I've seen with the "eye" test. The offensive line has it's problems but overall Kirk is getting enough time. He shouldn't be taking so many pressures and sacks.

Thank You. Can we please stop using the OL as an excuse for Cousins deficiencies? OL needs to play better. So does Cousins.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'll take a crack at that. I'd argue that he holds the ball too long and brings a lot of those pressures on himself. Despite him "shattering the record" for most pressures, he's actually pretty close to average in "time to throw". He ranks 21st with 2.67 seconds. Keeping in mind that the differences these QBs have are generally fractions of a second. From 15th place to last place are .1 seconds apart or less. The average time to throw is 2.74 and Kirk gets 2.67.

What that says to me is a good number of Cousins pressures/sacks are a result of him holding the ball too long. Which matches what I've seen with the "eye" test. The offensive line has it's problems but overall Kirk is getting enough time. He shouldn't be taking so many pressures and sacks.

Thank You. Can we please stop using the OL as an excuse for Cousins deficiencies? OL needs to play better. So does Cousins.

This is why that stat is bogus.. .. I know exactly where you getting it from. It’s next gen stats. Look at everyone’s numbers on there. It says that Big Ben, the same Big Ben that has probably the best offensive line in football in front of him, has the LEAST amount of time to throw at 2.56. Drew Brees at the 2nd least with 2.57. And Brady has the 3rd least. Now last time I checked, those 3 QBs hardly get touched game after game and have top end offensive lines.

That stat is garbage and that shows exactly why.

Being pressured 291 times in a season, is being pressured 291 times. No question about it. That’s more than “the offensive line having it’s problems”. Look at the guys behind Cousins in that stat. Goff, Mahomes, Ryan, Rodgers, Watson, Wentz, Wilson. Some of them are miles behind him and are considered to have “more time”.

Bottom line is, the way that stat works is:

If you have “little time to throw” according to the stat but are barely getting sacked, that means you’re getting it out quick. Not really saying much about your offensive line. If you have a lot of time to throw but aren’t getting sacked often that usually means you have a pretty good OL and/or you’re very mobile and can buy more time.

But if you’re fairly “low” AND you’re taking a lot of sacks, chances are that means you have a pretty bad offensive line. If Cousins was up in the 2.9 range and taking all these sacks, I would say yeah, probably holding onto it too long. But having 2.67 and still getting sacked often, shows me that’s not necessarily the case.

Remember, this stat does not factor in pressures. So if you’re Russell Wilson and can BUY TIME, that stat is going to show you have a ton of time to throw but his offensive line is actually terrible when it comes to pass blocking. If you’re a pure pocket QB like cousins, you aren’t buying time.

Guys want to say “Cousins holds the ball too long” but again, look at the numbers. When he has a good pass blocking offensive line (his first two years in Washington) he’s getting sacked in the low 20’s by years end. Then you look at last year and his offensive line gets crushed by injuries and he gets sacked 41 times. He’s now on pace for that this year because of how poor our offensive line is when it comes to pass blocking. If he has a halfway decent OL, he’s fine. So I disagree with him holding the ball too long. It just seems like that because he’s getting pressured so quickly and so often.

I’m not saying Cousins is some god or that we can’t criticize him but to say he holds the ball too long when he’s getting pressured 291 times and basing it off of next gen stats doesn’t add up. In 2015, Washington OL was ranked 11th PFF, 2016 was 7th but then in 2017, it was 21st. But still higher than ours in 2017. We were 22nd last year. In 2018, this offensive line is going to be bottom 5. That’s far from being Kirk Cousins fault.