Vikings Patriots post game

[Mothman]

You have an interesting way of remembering things.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Nothing about their performance was dominant. We lost, not because we shot ourselves in the foot, but because we shot ourselves in both feet.

Perhaps "dominant" wasn't the best choice of words. My point was NO was in control for a significant portion of the game and they certainly had a big lead by early in the 4th quarter. 30-13 is a dominant lead, regardless of how they arrived at that score.

It's old news now. Sorry I brought it up.

[Mothman]

Some interesting discussion here, but let me ask this question - in what game this year did Zimmer's Vikings surprise in a positive way? Name a game where they were not favored and they showed up for 60 minutes and over-performed?

I can't recall a game like that this year.

Last year, they had a few, which made me optimistic about this year's team, especially on defense where I hoped the debacle against the Eagles was the result of a letdown after the stunning victory over the Saints. And while I can't say the defense has performed that poorly, they've had 2 outstandingly poor games this year against good opponents (Rams and Pats) and several more half-games where they stunk it up IMHO (Bills, Bears, 1st game against the Packers) and allowed those teams to grab decent leads. Of course, there is always a "but..." excuse for those performances, but when a defense brings back almost every starter, most of those starters are still young and in their primes, and the guy they did add has been a stud in the recent past, well, I kind of expect better than what they've shown.

Is that Zimmer's fault? Probably not all of it, but can anyone here imagine a Belichek defense doing what the Vikings defense has done this year given the same talent and continuity? Can anyone imagine a Tomlin defense doing it? At this time of the year?

And I'm pretty sure we're going to see another repeat of it on Monday at Seattle. I'll be shocked if we don't watch as Wilson scrambles away from pressure for at least a half, lobbing a couple of daggers downfield in the process. And we don't continue to watch as the Hawks plow into the second level with runs on 1st and 2nd down, putting them in the same kinds of favorable down and distance situations the Pats found themselves in on 3rd downs. Tell me who here believes this defense we've watched lay eggs a lot this year doesn't come out and do it again on Monday?

I'm sure some of you will defend the defense. I get it. The stats say they're good. They have had stretches of solid play. Just those stretches haven't been nearly enough against the better-coached offenses they've faced.

You have to draw the line somewhere with a head coach, and for me, that line is how consistent the team is week-in and week-out, and whether they exceed, meet, or fail to meet expectations (accounting for injuries, crappy refs, bad breaks, etc.). Last year, Zimmer got way more out of the team than I expected. He over-performed right up until he ran into a creative, aggressive Eagles team (although one could argue his team shouldn't have made it past the Saints and the Divisional Round). This year, I can't think of a single time his team has over-performed. Mostly, I'd say they've met expectations, except against good teams, where they have consistently failed to meet expectations. Unfortunately, the good teams are the ones that get to the playoffs.

I think it's reasonable to reassess Zimmer and Spielman at the end of this season. To those who are given much, much is expected, and this Vikings team was stacked everywhere except the offensive line heading into the season. Even with that, all teams have to deal with roster flaws and injuries, and so far, the report card isn't good. I suspect it will be worse by next Tuesday.

Excellent post. You've stated all of this more clearly than I did. I'm too frustrated.

I share your expectations for next week's game, although I'd love it if that was the game where the Vikes finally did perform well above expectations.

I think you made an excellent point about assessing coaches. The Vikings have certainly not met my expectations from week-to-week this year. One glaring example was the first half against the Bears. Coming off the bye week, they looked so unprepared for Trubisky's game that it was almost as if they hadn't watched film of him. They were also pretty flat with first place on the line (at least I think it was on the line, wasn't it?). The disaster against Buffalo is an even more glaring example.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Lot of different "greats" out there. The Chiefs and Rams cant stop a soul but fans would call those teams "great".

You win, my friend. The 6-5-1 2018 Vikings are clearly a great team.

Ok? Like PMR said, there isn’t a great team out there right now. I don’t even buy NE given they lost badly to Detroit and Tennessee. Every team out there is vulnerable in their own way including the Vikings. I think they are a great group not putting it together. The rams defense is a great group not putting it together. The eagles are loaded with talent not putting it together. The Steelers notoriously play down to their opponents. We can beat anyone in the nfc if we make the playoffs. We were right there with the saints, bears and rams. The 3 top teams out there in the nfc. The 2 wild card spots are coming down to 4 teams. Vikings, Philly, Seattle and Carolina. Washington is dead in the water at this point. I’m going to see the season play out. No doubt we need to play better but I say we surprise some teams down the stretch. Maybe I’m wrong but I’ll stick my neck out and say it.

[Pondering Her Percy]

You have an interesting way of remembering things.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Nothing about their performance was dominant. We lost, not because we shot ourselves in the foot, but because we shot ourselves in both feet.

Perhaps "dominant" wasn't the best choice of words. My point was NO was in control for a significant portion the game and they certainly had a big lead by early in the 4th quarter. 30-13 is a dominant lead, regardless of how they arrived at that score.

It's old news now. Sorry I brought it up.

We were entirely in control in the first half of that game. Up 13-10 inside the 10 yard line and AT fumbles and completely flips momentum as we get scored on before half. We score there, which chances were high, then we’re up 20-10 at half and getting the ball back. And had drew Brees well under 100 yards passing. That’s the definition of control up until the fumble

[Mothman]

You win, my friend. The 6-5-1 2018 Vikings are clearly a great team.

Ok? Like PMR said, there isn’t a great team out there right now. I don’t even buy NE given they lost badly to Detroit and Tennessee. Every team out there is vulnerable in their own way including the Vikings. I think they are a great group not putting it together. The rams defense is a great group not putting it together. The eagles are loaded with talent not putting it together. The Steelers notoriously play down to their opponents.

Please forget I said "When it comes to building a great team?" and please substitute the word champion or the phrase "Super Bowl-winning" in place of great because that was my point. Hiring a coaching staff and assembling a talented roster is one thing. Putting the pieces together in a way that yields a champion is another matter entirely.

We can beat anyone in the nfc if we make the playoffs. We were right there with the saints, bears and rams.

... and lost to all 3. They lost to NO by 10 points after scoring a "garbage time" TD so I can't even consider that game close. They didn't get going and make the Bears game close until late either. If they can beat anyone in the NFC, they need to actually show it by beating a good team.

The 3 top teams out there in the nfc. The 2 wild card spots are coming down to 4 teams. Vikings, Philly, Seattle and Carolina. Washington is dead in the water at this point. I’m going to see the season play out. No doubt we need to play better but I say we surprise some teams down the stretch. Maybe I’m wrong but I’ll stick my neck out and say it.

It would be nice to see them do that. Stranger things have happened in the NFL so I won't rule it out but if they're going to assert themselves and make a run, this is the week to start. They've had a lot on the line the last 3 weeks and only came away with a win against the now-hapless Packers. A road win over a hot opponent that's also competing for a wild card would be huge.

[Mothman]

Regarding Zimmer's involvement with the offense, this is from today's Strib:

http://www.startribune.com/vikings-coac ... 501830821/

On Monday, however, Zimmer said he needs to do a better job of helping with the offense — though he added, “It’s hard when I’m trying to correct things on defense and trying to help with special teams” — and mentioned the possibility of delegating more in-game defensive adjustments to defensive coordinator George Edwards.

“I don’t know. I haven’t decided yet. So we’ll just have to see,” he said. “You know, when things are going smooth, it’s no issue. Then I can go talk to the offense all I want. When things are helter skelter on defense, I’m spending a little bit more time with them, or with the special teams. So it’s just part of it.”

Zimmer said his interaction with DeFilippo during the week is about the same as it was with Pat Shurmur, the former Vikings offensive coordinator who became the Giants head coach in January.

“We talk all the time. We talk about the things I think are important,” Zimmer said. “And I think he tries to do those.”

[mansquatch]

IMO, there are a few major culprits for this season and it's current state:

#1: Losing Tony Sparano and Nick Easton going on IR in preseason: This was just bad luck, but it is obvious the OL suffered for it
#2: Drafting Mike Hughes instead of one of the available interior OL prospects
#3: JDF being a major downgrade from Pat Shurmer (at least so far)
#4: Defense having a post 2017 hangover for first 6 weeks of season
#5: Kicking issues coming to a head (again)

Zimmer has his hands all over this, but he is the headcoach, how would he not?

I have ot ask though: Would some of this fallen apart like this is if Pat Shurmer were still here? I know that was never an option, but that isn't why I'm asking. Shurmer was able to the offense VERY effectively under Zimmer's management style. So to me the issues on offense that are coaching related are likely more a result of the team doing a bad job of finding offensive coaches that are good fit with Zimmer.

On the OL, I think there are two separate problems right now. First one is with Sparano gone, have we found the right guy to be our OL coach and develop those guys. I think the answer to this is "we don't know." We've had A LOT of injuries within that group this year, especially at guard. That takes it's toll. I do think the Spielman is an issue here though. See item #2 above. That might be Zimmer also, not sure.

#4 seems to be fixed. However, Zimmmer has shown an issue over the years of having his team come out flat a few times each season. This is a problem and not a new one.

For #5: I think Priefer needs to go, not much else to say here that I haven't already said.

I think the biggest problem this season is the OC hire. They need to do a better job of finding a guy that can mesh with Zimmer's style. I think canning Zim would be a mistake at this point. Who is going to replace him? This is back to "we should tear it all down because we didn't win it all."

[Mothman]

IMO, there are a few major culprits for this season and it's current state:

#1: Losing Tony Sparano and Nick Easton going on IR in preseason: This was just bad luck, but it is obvious the OL suffered for it
#2: Drafting Mike Hughes instead of one of the available interior OL prospects
#3: JDF being a major downgrade from Pat Shurmer (at least so far)
#4: Defense having a post 2017 hangover for first 6 weeks of season
#5: Kicking issues coming to a head (again)

Zimmer has his hands all over this, but he is the headcoach, how would he not?

I have ot ask though: Would some of this fallen apart like this is if Pat Shurmer were still here? I know that was never an option, but that isn't why I'm asking. Shurmer was able to the offense VERY effectively under Zimmer's management style. So to me the issues on offense that are coaching related are likely more a result of the team doing a bad job of finding offensive coaches that are good fit with Zimmer.

I'm fairly certain Zimmer has chosen his own coaches and coordinators.

Regarding Shurmur: it's hard to say. They kind of caught lightning in a bottle as a team last year. Cousins brings a different skill set to the QB position than Keenum did so maybe Shurmur's approach wouldn't have worked quite as well this season. It's interesting, statistically speaking, last year's offense and this year's offense aren't too far apart in many categories. For example, there's about 1 point per game difference in the team's scoring average. The stats that jump out are the differences in the running game. I think they averaged almost 10 runs more per game under Shurmur and they threw it less. Of course, the defense allowed an average of almost 7 points per game less last season and that's inevitably going to have some impact on the offense too (and this Defilippo-led offense is undoubtedly having a reciprocal influence on the defense). It's hard to quantify that stuff.

There are definitely questions and issues surrounding the OL, OL coaching, etc.

I think the biggest problem this season is the OC hire. They need to do a better job of finding a guy that can mesh with Zimmer's style. I think canning Zim would be a mistake at this point. Who is going to replace him? This is back to "we should tear it all down because we didn't win it all."

I disagree. It's not about tearing it all down because they didn't win it all. As I see it, it's about assessing whether they have the right people in charge to win it all. It's about limitations and potential. Who would replace Zimmer? The pro and college ranks are full of coaches. There's always an alternative and nothing we've seen from Zimmer in the last 4.75 seasons makes him irreplaceable.

If the special teams coaching is a problem and the offensive coaching is a problem and they're both ongoing, multi-year issues under the head coach, at some point, he has to be looked at as somewhat problematic too. Zimmer's a good defensive coach but his defenses haven't really shown the kind of dominance it takes to carry a team to a championship without more support from those other units and there's reason to question his coaching prowess when facing off against the better coaches in the NFL (which is what you tend to see in postseason play).

We can all go on forever about Spielman but he's not irreplaceable either and the way he's handled both the QB and OL positions over the years alone should give everybody pause. Signing a non-elite QB like Cousins (who he could easily have drafted) to one of the most lucrative 3 year contracts in NFL history after spending 3 first round picks on QBs in 7 years may have been "peak Spielman"!

I've already acknowledged that neither man is going anywhere in 2019 so we'll all get to see how this continues to play out.

[mansquatch]

Jim how does Spielman stack up on the positions other than OL and QB? It is easy to bash his weak spots, but if you are going to advocate change you have to consider his positives, because you are tossing those out at as well.

We've been down this road before. Everyone on this train was pretty quiet last year. Now the Vikes are having a tough stretch with identifiable causes (I even went to the trouble of identifying a few of them above) and suddenly it is the same refrain: FIRE Spielman, Zimmer Sucks, etc. This whole tirade is basically:

Who is the greener pasture? And don't tell me there are a bunch of college coaches out there. What are the odds we get the next Chip Kelly or Steve Spurrier? JDF is talked about like he is in the same mold and McVeigh and Shannahan, yet the results say something else. I think a lot of you have forgotten that we can just as easily get a Mike Tice, Brad Childress, or Leslie Frasier. We forget that Zimmer took this team over and after one hard year (2014, in which the team's best player was unable to play) he had us in the playoffs. From there we had bad luck with injuries and kickers (2016), a wonderful year (2017), and now another year with bad luck on injuries and coaching staff turnover. If you ask me, this guy has a formula that works, he just needs to iron some things out. I'd rather take my chances on that vs. some unknown.

I'm still not really persuaded that it is a systemic issue with Zimmer and Spielman and not just that we had bad luck with Sparano dying, injuries, and JDF not being as far along as we'd hoped he would be. It sure feels like a lot folks are just convinced it's reason X without considering that it might Y or Z. But what do I know.

[Mothman]

Jim how does Spielman stack up on the positions other than OL and QB? It is easy to bash his weak spots, but if you are going to advocate change you have to consider his positives, because you are tossing those out at as well.

Since we've gone over that a couple dozen times over the years, I'd rather not go over it all again, position by position.The short answer is: the positives don't outweigh the negatives. He's obviously had some success and he's done better at most positions than he has at QB and OL but my contention now, as it has been for years, is that he's a GM who focuses more on stats and talent than on fit. He doesn't build logically enough and he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. I think his negatives clearly outweigh his positives.

We've been down this road before. Everyone on this train was pretty quiet last year.

13-3 will do that... plus, I wasn't here the vast majority of that season. As you know, I've been off the Spielman train for years. I didn't suddenly hop back on in 2017 and hop off again this season.

Now the Vikes are having a tough stretch with identifiable causes (I even went to the trouble of identifying a few of them above) and suddenly it is the same refrain: FIRE Spielman, Zimmer Sucks, etc. This whole tirade is basically:

Most of the very problems you listed stem directly from Spielman and Zimmer. Obviously, the first one is just bad luck, as you said but who do you think decided to draft Mike Hughes over an OL prospect (#2)? Who hired JDF (#3)? Who's responsible for the quality of the defense (#4)? Who decided to draft and go with a rookie kicker? Who's kept Priefer through years of kicking issues, etc. (#5)?

Who is the greener pasture?

I don't know. I'm sure I could do some digging and come up with names for Zimmer fans to shoot down but why bother since I know that will be the reward for my efforts?

There's a league full of assistants if you don't want to go to the college ranks. Find a Nagy, McVay or Lynn. There are always coaching prospects out there.

I think a lot of you have forgotten that we can just as easily get a Mike Tice, Brad Childress, or Leslie Frasier.

I think we basically have a variation on those coaches now, just better supported than Tice or Frazier and more likable than Childress. Anyway, as I've said to you before, fear of failure is no reason to keep a head coach if he's not the right guy to take the team all the way.

We forget that Zimmer took this team over and after one hard year (2014, in which the team's best player was unable to play) he had us in the playoffs.

I haven't forgotten that. Leslie Frazier did the exact same thing, and both did it with a gigantic assist from Adrian Peterson. I suspect he'd have a record pretty similar to Zimmer's if he'd been given the same number of years and the same level of support. Ditto for Tice. Childress had very similar accomplishments over his first 4 seasons. The wheels fell off spectacularly for him in 2010 and Zimmer's avoided that this year but not the championship loss hangover (and that blowout loss was a big flashing warning sign that shouldn't be ignored).

From there we had bad luck with injuries and kickers (2016), a wonderful year (2017), and now another year with bad luck on injuries and coaching staff turnover. If you ask me, this guy has a formula that works, he just needs to iron some things out. I'd rather take my chances on that vs. some unknown.

I think it's a formula for long term mediocrity peppered with an occasional double-digit win season and a lot of postseason disappointment. That's the 12 years Spielman's been with the team in a nutshell.

Also: Zimmer was basically "some unknown" before he got the Vikes gig and yet you've happily embraced him. If he was replaced, I'm sure Vikes fans could learn to love again.

[Cliff]

Jim how does Spielman stack up on the positions other than OL and QB? It is easy to bash his weak spots, but if you are going to advocate change you have to consider his positives, because you are tossing those out at as well.

We've been down this road before. Everyone on this train was pretty quiet last year. Now the Vikes are having a tough stretch with identifiable causes (I even went to the trouble of identifying a few of them above) and suddenly it is the same refrain: FIRE Spielman, Zimmer Sucks, etc. This whole tirade is basically:

Who is the greener pasture? And don't tell me there are a bunch of college coaches out there. What are the odds we get the next Chip Kelly or Steve Spurrier? JDF is talked about like he is in the same mold and McVeigh and Shannahan, yet the results say something else. I think a lot of you have forgotten that we can just as easily get a Mike Tice, Brad Childress, or Leslie Frasier. We forget that Zimmer took this team over and after one hard year (2014, in which the team's best player was unable to play) he had us in the playoffs. From there we had bad luck with injuries and kickers (2016), a wonderful year (2017), and now another year with bad luck on injuries and coaching staff turnover. If you ask me, this guy has a formula that works, he just needs to iron some things out. I'd rather take my chances on that vs. some unknown.

I'm still not really persuaded that it is a systemic issue with Zimmer and Spielman and not just that we had bad luck with Sparano dying, injuries, and JDF not being as far along as we'd hoped he would be. It sure feels like a lot folks are just convinced it's reason X without considering that it might Y or Z. But what do I know.

If this Vikings team misses the playoffs or goes out in the first round Zimmer will have had exactly the same amount of success during his time as Childress. Wins and losses Zimmer has the edge, playoff wins are 1-2 with an appearance in the NFCC. 2 NFC North titles.

At what point would you get rid of Zimmer? If he lost the rest of the games this season and they miss the playoffs? If they miss the playoffs this year and next?

I think Zimmer is a better coach than Childress but as far as results it hasn't mattered. At what point does the team decide he can't get it done? Through Cousins contract?

[VikingLord]

If this Vikings team misses the playoffs or goes out in the first round Zimmer will have had exactly the same amount of success during his time as Childress. Wins and losses Zimmer has the edge, playoff wins are 1-2 with an appearance in the NFCC. 2 NFC North titles.

At what point would you get rid of Zimmer? If he lost the rest of the games this season and they miss the playoffs? If they miss the playoffs this year and next?

I think Zimmer is a better coach than Childress but as far as results it hasn't mattered. At what point does the team decide he can't get it done? Through Cousins contract?

Big difference between the two is, when Childress was given Favre at QB, the team he coached that year had its greatest overall success.

Zimmer was given Cousins at QB, and so far his team has been pretty "meh" this year. His greatest success as coach of the team came when the team was down to a 3rd string journeyman QB who was not afraid to take chances and make mistakes.

[mansquatch]

I'm just not sold on firing him as a solution that will likely net positive results. Defensively we are in a rare group within the NFL in terms of the quality of our unit. If they can get the Kicking, OC, and OL crap figured out they are probably primed to make a deep playoff run. 2 years from now, things might change. We need to remember that Harrison Smith was drafted in 2012 and is in his prime for probably 3-5 more seasons. The only guy on the Defense that will probably fall off is EG who was taken in 2010. But even he probably has 2 or 3 more years. Everyone else is on their first big extension. Aside from a career ending in injury, that unit is set to continue to be great for 2-4 more seasons. It seems kind of silly to cut the head off the snake with all that is invested there.

Big question for me going into offseason will be OC and that doesn't necessarily mean canning JDF, although it seems to be leaning that way.

Honestly though, this talk is premature. The SEA game is must win. If we can win that, then we should own our playoff destiny. SEA has to play KC which they are at risk to lose. That means if we take care of business, they finish 9-7. CHI still has to contend with LAR on their schedule. If we win out and LAR beat the Bears, then the week 17 game will be for all the NFC N marbles thanks to the Bears choking it up against the NYG. The Tie we had in week 2 has had us looking up at CHI all season, but in the end it could be our saving grace. If we both finish with 10 wins then we are division champs since we'll have the better winning %.

[fiestavike]

We can all go on forever about Spielman but he's not irreplaceable either and the way he's handled both the QB and OL positions over the years alone should give everybody pause. Signing a non-elite QB like Cousins (who he could easily have drafted) to one of the most lucrative 3 year contracts in NFL history after spending 3 first round picks on QBs in 7 years may have been "peak Spielman"!

I've already acknowledged that neither man is going anywhere in 2019 so we'll all get to see how this continues to play out.

I think the two 'peak spielman' moments in the negative sense were the way he addressed the OL position in 2016(?) When we kept Kalil and brought in Andre Smith to man our Tackle positions, with TJ Clemmings as the backup plan. I hope I am remembering that correctly, though I kind of wish I weren't. Secondly, trading a 1st and 4th for a truly middling QB in Sam Bradford after Bridgewater went down.

As for Zimmer, he gives them the best chance to win for the next year, but his defensive scheme is too conservative for todays NFL. Realistically, defenses today have to make plays. They don't win just by being disciplined. If they aren't playing downhill, they are a beat behind, in a sport where the defense naturally starts a half beat behind already, and in which the rules have placed them another full beat behind. As good as the defense is, they don't lead the dance, and that's just not consistently going to work without a dominant running game. Its certainly not going to work when you pass 40+ times a game.

[fiestavike]

I'm just not sold on firing him as a solution that will likely net positive results. Defensively we are in a rare group within the NFL in terms of the quality of our unit. If they can get the Kicking, OC, and OL crap figured out they are probably primed to make a deep playoff run. 2 years from now, things might change. We need to remember that Harrison Smith was drafted in 2012 and is in his prime for probably 3-5 more seasons. The only guy on the Defense that will probably fall off is EG who was taken in 2010. But even he probably has 2 or 3 more years. Everyone else is on their first big extension. Aside from a career ending in injury, that unit is set to continue to be great for 2-4 more seasons. It seems kind of silly to cut the head off the snake with all that is invested there.

Big question for me going into offseason will be OC and that doesn't necessarily mean canning JDF, although it seems to be leaning that way.

Honestly though, this talk is premature. The SEA game is must win. If we can win that, then we should own our playoff destiny. SEA has to play KC which they are at risk to lose. That means if we take care of business, they finish 9-7. CHI still has to contend with LAR on their schedule. If we win out and LAR beat the Bears, then the week 17 game will be for all the NFC N marbles thanks to the Bears choking it up against the NYG. The Tie we had in week 2 has had us looking up at CHI all season, but in the end it could be our saving grace. If we both finish with 10 wins then we are division champs since we'll have the better winning %.

I favor promoting Stefanski and canning John D. Filippo if they don't beat the Seahawks.

Also, its time to let EG go and put Weatherly in the starting lineup, and let Trae 'Step late and dollar short" Waynes go as well. Remmers would be a good 6-7th lineman, but might not be worth the salary. Dump Sendejo and Rudolph too.