Vikings Patriots post game

[PatsFanInPeace]

Just my .02, but Zimmer is a good coach. Considering the rubes Minny has had as head coaches, he's not your problem. DeFillippo is not that impressive and I think Cousins is overpaid.

I would have stuck with Keenum at 20 mil per and saved the 8 mil per and spent it elsewhere. That's a Spielman salary allocation discussion. You then could have drafted a future QB to groom behind Keenum.

Spielman took the Cousins hype cheese, which was a colossal blunder, and took a guy who spent the last 2 years in Washington, vying for the FA boon for QBs, because of what Ozzie Newsome (just got fired) did in 2013 with Flacco, which spiked the market.

In 2013, BB traded back from 29, took Jamie Collins in the 2nd rd and Logan Ryan in the 4th. NE won 2 SBs, played in 3, and now have Patterson on short money.

That right there in a nutshell is more of the issue for your team, which is a good team, than the head coach.

Your problem is more so Spielman.

[Texas Vike]

Another bright spot in yesterday's loss: Kendricks. He was making tackles all over the field and he made a great pick.

Agreed. Kendricks is a warrior. I have been hoping to see Barr show me something this season, a contract year after all, but all he's showing me is that he doesn't really deserve a big contract. His play has seemingly regressed this year.

Another thing to account for: we played Holton Hill, an injured Mac Alexander, and Sherels at CB for much of the game. That won't cut it against Brady. With Rhodes, Waynes and Hughes, I'd like our chances a heck of a lot better.

Harris continues to play well, making Sendejo expendable next season IMO. Where is Iloka?

Lastly, if I were a reporter, I'd ask Zimmer what the hell happened on the first (missed) FG. Why did the holder (Wiles) run onto the field so late and who is responsible for that? (I know the answer, I'd just want to force him to say it).

[Maelstrom88]

For me it is becoming apparent that Zimmer may not be the guy to get this team over the hump. The rest of the season will be very telling starting next week. If they lay an egg in Seattle you have to consider replacing him this off-season. They also need some real urgency in fixing the offensive line for next year.

[VikingLord]

That's a problem. It's clear to me that as a head coach, Zimmer has often been overmatched.

The thought that is going through my head today is, is there any chance the Vikings go into Seattle and actually look and play like the more prepared and fired up team next Monday night?

As much as I want to tell myself that could happen, I know it won't. I suspect we're going to see another classic 2018 Vikings game next Monday night.

If that happens, how can that not be placed on the coaching staff? It's been like this all season.

[Cliff]

Zimmer's defenses have had problems with quality opponents going back to his days in Cinci. Especially in the playoffs. He's the best coach the Vikings have had in a pretty long while. That doesn't mean he's good enough to take them to the super bowl though.

I'm not advocating firing him but I am definitely thinking about where that "he needs to go" line is.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I completely understand what you’re saying TV. But like I said in my last post, criticizing players or coaches is one thing, but saying Zim or Spielman need to be fired is another. And again, it’s not like it was just after this game. It’s been after MULTIPLE games the last few years. If we lose, Spielman and Zimmers heads must roll with some fans. I mean Zimmer has the 7th best winning percentage of all coaches in the nfl right now and rick Spielman has put together a team loaded with talent

... and yet they still underperform. Assembling talent isn't the same as assembling a really good team. Most GMs can find talent, Spielman's even pretty good at it. When it comes to building a great team? Not so much...

Yeah, we haven’t played up to potential this year but is it REALLY fair to say they should both be fired??

It's fair because it's about their limitations, not about winning percentage or defensive rankings.

Spielman's been in Minnesota for 12 years now, 7 as GM, 8 with basically that much authority, most of them mired in mediocrity, a few of them fun, successful seasons. Zimmer's in his 5th season and his talent-loaded team can't seem to beat a team with a winning record. Throughout his tenure with the Vikes, when faced with similarly talented and well-coached opponents, his teams have tended to come up short. Chronic problems don't get fixed.

In his column today, Jim Souhan pointed out that "The Vikings under Zimmer are 2-9 on the road against playoff teams. If the Bears and Patriots make the playoffs this season — virtual certainties — the record will be 2-11."

That's a problem. It's clear to me that as a head coach, Zimmer has often been overmatched.

So I guess my question is, define a "great team"? Are the Chiefs and Rams considered great teams? When their defenses are sitting at the bottom of the league? This is a great team that is being held back by a few things. The main thing being the offensive coordinator. After the Rams game, our defense dropped to like 22nd in total defense. We've gotten all the way up to 6th since that game and have played some very good teams/good offenses in the meantime. Zim is doing his job on that end and always has. As for the offense, it's not like he can take over play calling. I'm sure he has had his talk with Flip a few times. He practically called him out in his presser after the Chicago game. I'm sure he is less than impressed at this point too. Zim is an old school ground and pound coach. Knowing Dalvin Cook carved up NE but only got 9 carries isnt going to please him. If Zim couldnt see eye to eye with Turner, its hard for me to believe he likes what Flip is doing right now. How that is being handled is the next question. But bottom line is, Spielman built a team that can contend. Whether we win a SB or not in the next few years is TBD.

I mean we're starting to continuously dip in points per game offensively where we are getting better in that category defensively. This offense doesnt need to do a ton with this defense. But Flip is gradually getting worse. And this offense is suffering because of it. Winning percentage is what gets me with Zim. 7th highest right now. If Zim was "often overmatched", his winning percentage wouldnt be 7th highest I can tell you that. I know you arent a fan of him and we've had our battles over him before but I will continue to say,, he's the best coach we've had here in a long time and the players love and respect him. Criticize all you want but I will say, he isnt going to get fired and neither is Spielman. As they shouldnt.

[VikingLord]

But like I said in my last post, criticizing players or coaches is one thing, but saying Zim or Spielman need to be fired is another. And again, it’s not like it was just after this game. It’s been after MULTIPLE games the last few years. If we lose, Spielman and Zimmers heads must roll with some fans.

I'm not saying Zimmer and/or Spielman should go after this latest loss, but your statement makes me wonder at what point you would agree with those who are saying it?

Zimmer kind of reminds me of Dennis Green. Good coach. When his teams were a little deficient in talent, he got more out of them than fans had the right to expect. When they were superior in talent, he got less out of them at critical moments than fans had the right to expect. Green as a coach reminded me of Leroy Hoard as a running back and his famous words "If you need 3 yards I can get you 4. If you need 5 yards I can get you 4". Or something like that. Last year, the Vikings had no right to expect to perform so well with Case Keenum at QB, but somehow they managed it and made it to the NFCC. This year, with Kirk Cousins, they'll be lucky to make the playoffs. And I'm afraid that relative success is about as good as we Vikings fans are going to ever get under the Spielman/Zimmer combination.

Spielman is reminding me more and more of Mike Lynn every year. Makes the big splash signing (for Lynn, it was the Walker trade debacle), failing to focus on other areas of the team in the process, and somehow one of the most overall talented teams in the NFL falls well short. And to boot, he never got the impact out of Walker that he hoped for, either. Now the Vikings deal for Cousins isn't on par with that, but it's a big chunk of change and that does impact their ability to make moves in other areas of the team. Hopefully, that move won't produce a similar result for Spielman that the Walker move did for Lynn.

This Vikings team has an excellent and committed ownership group willing to spend the money necessary to build and maintain a winner. That hasn't been an issue. The team just got a fantastic new stadium and one of the best practice facilities in the NFL. Other than the weather maybe, Minnesota overall should be very attractive for future players who want great ownership and great fans. So if the team that ends up on the field every week is stacked, and yet continually fails to produce against equally or less-talented teams, that's got to come home to roost at some point. Where is that point? Another bad loss to the Seahawks on national TV? Making the playoffs and a first-round exit this year in another embarrassing loss? Maybe not making the playoffs at all this year?

Or does it go into similar results next year when they've had a chance to improve the offensive line maybe?

It's a fair question to ask given the results of this season.

[J. Kapp 11]

I think Cook needs to be fed more and more. He looked terrific last night on the minimal carries. It shouldn't be too much to ask for JDF to be a little bit more creative and mix in a play action pass every now and then.

There it is.

We have an amazingly talented running back in Dalvin Cook. He's quick. He makes people miss. He's got breakaway speed. He's got power. He's a poor man's Todd Gurley. But in a game where he's gaining big chunks every other carry, JDF gives him 9 carries. This was a tie game through three quarters. Why in the hell would we abandon the run?

For those of you who want to fire Zimmer, I ask you: What has Zimmer been preaching? That's right. Running the football. Yesterday, we had Cook getting 8 yards per carry, and JDF just kept dropping Cousins back to get blitzed. No play-action. No sustained running game. No real chance to throw downfield.

Maybe if the offensive coordinator would establish the running game, like he's been asked to do repeatedly throughout the season, things would be different. You want to know who got schooled yesterday? John DeFilippo got schooled by Bill Belichick in the art of stopping an offense that won't adjust. For BB, that's like taking candy from a baby.

[Pondering Her Percy]

But like I said in my last post, criticizing players or coaches is one thing, but saying Zim or Spielman need to be fired is another. And again, it’s not like it was just after this game. It’s been after MULTIPLE games the last few years. If we lose, Spielman and Zimmers heads must roll with some fans.

I'm not saying Zimmer and/or Spielman should go after this latest loss, but your statement makes me wonder at what point you would agree with those who are saying it?

Zimmer kind of reminds me of Dennis Green. Good coach. When his teams were a little deficient in talent, he got more out of them than fans had the right to expect. When they were superior in talent, he got less out of them at critical moments than fans had the right to expect. Green as a coach reminded me of Leroy Hoard as a running back and his famous words "If you need 3 yards I can get you 4. If you need 5 yards I can get you 4". Or something like that. Last year, the Vikings had no right to expect to perform so well with Case Keenum at QB, but somehow they managed it and made it to the NFCC. This year, with Kirk Cousins, they'll be lucky to make the playoffs. And I'm afraid that relative success is about as good as we Vikings fans are going to ever get under the Spielman/Zimmer combination.

Spielman is reminding me more and more of Mike Lynn every year. Makes the big splash signing (for Lynn, it was the Walker trade debacle), failing to focus on other areas of the team in the process, and somehow one of the most overall talented teams in the NFL falls well short. And to boot, he never got the impact out of Walker that he hoped for, either. Now the Vikings deal for Cousins isn't on par with that, but it's a big chunk of change and that does impact their ability to make moves in other areas of the team. Hopefully, that move won't produce a similar result for Spielman that the Walker move did for Lynn.

This Vikings team has an excellent and committed ownership group willing to spend the money necessary to build and maintain a winner. That hasn't been an issue. The team just got a fantastic new stadium and one of the best practice facilities in the NFL. Other than the weather maybe, Minnesota overall should be very attractive for future players who want great ownership and great fans. So if the team that ends up on the field every week is stacked, and yet continually fails to produce against equally or less-talented teams, that's got to come home to roost at some point. Where is that point? Another bad loss to the Seahawks on national TV? Making the playoffs and a first-round exit this year in another embarrassing loss? Maybe not making the playoffs at all this year?

Or does it go into similar results next year when they've had a chance to improve the offensive line maybe?

It's a fair question to ask given the results of this season.

As many know on here, I give guys time. I hardly ever jump on here and call for coaches heads and GM's heads (other than Flip due to the obvious). I dont call players busts in their rookie year. I'm sure you're going to say, well Spielman has had time. Yeah but since he's been with Mike Zimmer, he's been excellent (outside of the OL). Mike Zimmer has the 7th highest win percentage in the NFL. If there are a few years in a row that this team drastically flops, I have no problem saying it. I gave Treadwell time and fought like hell for him. But this year, when he actually got time he hasnt done much. And I said it. Especially after the GB game. When guys constantly complained about Trae Waynes, I gave him time and Trae Waynes has turned into a hell of a CB. I dont jump the gun. We arent even a full year removed from a NFC championship birth. I'm not giving up on Mike Zimmer. Period. I think he is a hell of a coach. Losing to the New England Patriots on the road doesnt do that for me like it does for some fans. Sorry. I'm just as frustrated as anyone. But it's not like our SB window closes at seasons end either. We have just about ALL of our big time players signed through 2020. It just hasnt been our year.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I think Cook needs to be fed more and more. He looked terrific last night on the minimal carries. It shouldn't be too much to ask for JDF to be a little bit more creative and mix in a play action pass every now and then.

There it is.

We have an amazingly talented running back in Dalvin Cook. He's quick. He makes people miss. He's got breakaway speed. He's got power. He's a poor man's Todd Gurley. But in a game where he's gaining big chunks every other carry, JDF gives him 9 carries. This was a tie game through three quarters. Why in the hell would we abandon the run?

For those of you who want to fire Zimmer, I ask you: What has Zimmer been preaching? That's right. Running the football. Yesterday, we had Cook getting 8 yards per carry, and JDF just kept dropping Cousins back to get blitzed. No play-action. No sustained running game. No real chance to throw downfield.

Maybe if the offensive coordinator would establish the running game, like he's been asked to do repeatedly throughout the season, things would be different. You want to know who got schooled yesterday? John DeFilippo got schooled by Bill Belichick in the art of stopping an offense that won't adjust. For BB, that's like taking candy from a baby.

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's this instead of just pointing the finger at Kirk Cousins for picking his nose with the wrong finger. Flip was horrid and I'm getting sick of watching it. I could scheme against this offense and have a field day. I cant begin to count how many plays I've called out this year before the snap happened.

[Texas Vike]

As many know on here, I give guys time.[...]
I dont jump the gun. We arent even a full year removed from a NFC championship birth. I'm not giving up on Mike Zimmer. Period. I think he is a hell of a coach. Losing to the New England Patriots on the road doesnt do that for me like it does for some fans. Sorry. I'm just as frustrated as anyone. But it's not like our SB window closes at seasons end either. We have just about ALL of our big time players signed through 2020. It just hasnt been our year.

I don't want to fire Zimmer, but here's something you are failing to take into account: it isn't just losing to NE. It's losing to every team with a winning record this year. It's a lack of discipline (penalties, mismanagement of time, very poor first quarters, etc.) all of which are widely accepted as indications of poor coaching. It's an inability to hire coordinators with whom he shares a united, global vision for how he wants HIS football team to play. It's saying things like "I hate kickers" in the press. ... these are all things that I think Zimmer can be criticized for. Nonetheless, I love the guy. That's why I have his picture as my avatar. But my fondness for Zimm does not blind me to his imperfections.

[J. Kapp 11]

There it is.

We have an amazingly talented running back in Dalvin Cook. He's quick. He makes people miss. He's got breakaway speed. He's got power. He's a poor man's Todd Gurley. But in a game where he's gaining big chunks every other carry, JDF gives him 9 carries. This was a tie game through three quarters. Why in the hell would we abandon the run?

For those of you who want to fire Zimmer, I ask you: What has Zimmer been preaching? That's right. Running the football. Yesterday, we had Cook getting 8 yards per carry, and JDF just kept dropping Cousins back to get blitzed. No play-action. No sustained running game. No real chance to throw downfield.

Maybe if the offensive coordinator would establish the running game, like he's been asked to do repeatedly throughout the season, things would be different. You want to know who got schooled yesterday? John DeFilippo got schooled by Bill Belichick in the art of stopping an offense that won't adjust. For BB, that's like taking candy from a baby.

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's this instead of just pointing the finger at Kirk Cousins for picking his nose with the wrong finger. Flip was horrid and I'm getting sick of watching it. I could scheme against this offense and have a field day. I cant begin to count how many plays I've called out this year before the snap happened.

And I'll tell you what, PHP, I'm the first guy to admit -- I truly believed hiring John DeFilippo was going to be the thing that put us over the top. His reputation is right up there with McVay and Shanahan. When I went on YouTube and watched his TV segments, he seemed so knowledgeable and so detailed. But he's not doing well AT ALL.

Here's the conclusion I've come to. This is why I was wrong. John DeFilippo is a GREAT quarterbacks coach. His attention to detail on reads, ball placement, leverage, etc. is amazing. But coordinating an offense is more than just about the quarterback. It's putting -- first and foremost -- the O-line in a position to succeed. It's about keeping the other team off balance. It's about not being too one-dimensional. I mean, look at Philly last year. They were a GREAT running team. But that part of the game doesn't seem to have a place in JDF's mind. Maybe that's why he was the quarterbacks coach and not the OC.

Hopefully he'll learn from this season. I pray he does because it's tough to watch all this talent go to waste. But here's what I believe. If Pat Shurmur were still here, we'd have 8-10 wins by now. Look at what he's doing with the Giants. Yes, they're only 4-8, but they could very easily have a better record than that, and he's stuck with an old-a$$ Eli Manning at QB. Shurmur is really using Saquon Barkley effectively, and if he were here, he'd be doing the same with Dalvin.

It's just a tragedy. The defense is really playing well. Yesterday, I thought they did a great job, especially considering the fact that by the fourth quarter, Hill and Sherels were playing the corners. Bill Belichick and his defensive game plan beat us yesterday, and that all falls on JDF.

[PacificNorseWest]

Second straight game the Vikings get the ball first and go 3 and out. It used to be that with the "scripted 15" you'd see the good teams march right down the field on their first drive. Most of this is on Flip.

Cousins needs to do better.

Barr is worthless.

I'm not gonna get worked up. It was a non-conference game, everyone else in the North lost and the Vikings play the team ahead of them in the WC next (assuming a Redskins loss, Vikings will be seed at 6 after today).

I'm shutting it down until the weekend. Too exhausting. Hopefully they come to play against Seattle. That team is no joke right now.

[Mothman]

There it is.

We have an amazingly talented running back in Dalvin Cook. He's quick. He makes people miss. He's got breakaway speed. He's got power. He's a poor man's Todd Gurley. But in a game where he's gaining big chunks every other carry, JDF gives him 9 carries. This was a tie game through three quarters. Why in the hell would we abandon the run?

For those of you who want to fire Zimmer, I ask you: What has Zimmer been preaching? That's right. Running the football.

I don't care what he preaches. I care what he does. Rather than asking "why in the hell would we abandon the run", I'm asking why in the hell he keeps whining about not running the ball enough if he's not going to do something about it. If Zimmer wanted them to keep using Cook, if he wanted more running in that game, why didn't he insist on it? He was on the same sideline as Flip. He's supposed to be in charge of the team. See that it happens.

Maybe if the offensive coordinator would establish the running game, like he's been asked to do repeatedly throughout the season, things would be different.

Maybe if the Vikings had a head coach who wasn't a glorified defensive coordinator, we wouldn't have seen so many complaints about his offensive coordinators over the last 5 seasons. I know that sounds sarcastic but Turner took the brunt of the criticism while he was here too. Zimmer's the head coach. He doesn't deserve a pass on stuff like this, especially in his fifth season, and especially when he's been wanting them to run the ball.

You want to know who got schooled yesterday? John DeFilippo got schooled by Bill Belichick in the art of stopping an offense that won't adjust. For BB, that's like taking candy from a baby.

They didn't exactly struggle mightily to put points up on the Vikings defense but if Zimmer sees that his offense is overmatched, what's he doing about it? Does he not understand football well enough to call for and contribute to those adjustments? I doubt that. I know his expertise is in defense but he's been studying offenses for decades, game-planning against them. Surely he has some understanding of what works, of what NE was doing defensively, of what might effectively counter that. Is he even interested in that or is he content to call the defense, give his OCs full autonomy and then gripe about their performance after it doesn't work out?

[Mothman]

So I guess my question is, define a "great team"

I'm not going to split hairs about it. I assume we all know what "great" means. Great, as in "considerably above the normal or average".

Great teams play up to their full potential more often than not. They beat winning teams. They play smart. They're often disciplined. They're prepared. They're well-constructed.