53 man roster...Cuts and trades

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mansquatch
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by mansquatch » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:14 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:47 am
Agreed. We think ours is bad. Look at Buffalo, Seattle, Carolina, Washington....I can keep going. Defensive Lineman are getting better and offensive lineman are getting worse.

The problem is the College game and the direction it is taking with the spread offense. The NCAA just isn't producing linemen with the skillset that the NFL needs. I'm sure I'l get flamed for this, but I wonder if anyone will give Spielman some credit for being smart enough to have learned his lesson on Kalil and not risk day 1 draft capital on a position that has become increasingly risky to draft early? 15 years ago, OL ruled day one of the draft as they were considered amongst the least risky players to pick. Now they are probably as bad as WR.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:14 pm
The problem is the College game and the direction it is taking with the spread offense. The NCAA just isn't producing linemen with the skillset that the NFL needs. I'm sure I'l get flamed for this, but I wonder if anyone will give Spielman some credit for being smart enough to have learned his lesson on Kalil and not risk day 1 draft capital on a position that has become increasingly risky to draft early? 15 years ago, OL ruled day one of the draft as they were considered amongst the least risky players to pick. Now they are probably as bad as WR.
I won't flame you, that's for sure.

I've been beating this drum for awhile now -- the Vikings have taken the approach that they can draft linemen on Day 2 or 3 and develop them. Say what you want about whether that works, but they've been pretty consistent in that approach other than Kalil.

In today's NFL, it's impossible to have stars at every position. You've got to be able to find and develop some diamonds in the rough. Considering position groups like our wide receivers, the evidence suggests we're pretty good at it.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by mansquatch » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:00 am

I'm not sure they've solved the development end of the formula. Of the guys that started last year, one was a rookie, two where FA signings, one was a long time veteran, and one was developed by the club.

I do think they've over saturated themselves at CB, but that is a different topic.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 am

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:14 pm
The problem is the College game and the direction it is taking with the spread offense. The NCAA just isn't producing linemen with the skillset that the NFL needs. I'm sure I'l get flamed for this, but I wonder if anyone will give Spielman some credit for being smart enough to have learned his lesson on Kalil and not risk day 1 draft capital on a position that has become increasingly risky to draft early? 15 years ago, OL ruled day one of the draft as they were considered amongst the least risky players to pick. Now they are probably as bad as WR.
No I think you're 100% right. I always say, that year with Kalil, the "big 3" were Kalil, Blackmon and Claiborne. It was a lose-lose for Spielman. Because we needed all 3 positions desperately and all 3 turned into busts. I will say, at least Kalil was a pro bowler. Blackmon was a head case and Claiborne turned into a middle of the road CB at best. The cause of Kalil's torpedo downwards was Matt Kalil himself. No doubt the guy was a good LT. He took Tyron Smith's spot at USC and Smith moved to RT. He then makes the pro bowl as a rookie. The knee issues just caught up to him. I dont blame Spielman whatsoever for that pick. It was the safest at the time and worked out, only for a short time.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by mansquatch » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:00 pm

I wasn't seeking to heap hate for a pick made 6 years ago. Your assessment of that pick is spot on also. Heck, Rick even managed to squeeze a draft pick out of Cleveland and still got Kalil. Besides, he also drafted Harrison Smith in that draft. Is anyone upset about that? I'm not.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by Husker Vike » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:06 pm

I agree that Kalil was probably the pick we needed most at the time, I do believe that Hernandez will be a pro bowler and reports so far are outstanding on him.I think Hughes will be fine also,just believe our need was more on the O line.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by VikingLord » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:08 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm
In today's NFL, it's impossible to have stars at every position. You've got to be able to find and develop some diamonds in the rough. Considering position groups like our wide receivers, the evidence suggests we're pretty good at it.
You hit the nail on the head.

OL is a tough spot for a rookie. Pro blocking schemes require a lot of coordination and experience with all of the great athletes on the other side of the ball coupled with defensive coordinators who find many creative ways to utilize those athletes as they try to disrupt the offense. Being effective as an OL player requires a lot more than just great measurables coming out of college.

I think Spielman did it right again this year and I think time will bear that out. O'Neill has looked lost at times, but the athleticism he brings to the position is clear already. With some seasoning and experience, I think he's going to become an effective starter and maybe even an impact player. He's just not going to do that right away.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by PacificNorseWest » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:14 pm
The problem is the College game and the direction it is taking with the spread offense. The NCAA just isn't producing linemen with the skillset that the NFL needs. I'm sure I'l get flamed for this, but I wonder if anyone will give Spielman some credit for being smart enough to have learned his lesson on Kalil and not risk day 1 draft capital on a position that has become increasingly risky to draft early? 15 years ago, OL ruled day one of the draft as they were considered amongst the least risky players to pick. Now they are probably as bad as WR.
There's still about 3 or 4 teams where everyone is trying to get the same lineman from based on the offense they run. Notre Dame, Stanford and Wisconsin plus usually 1 standout from the SEC. :lol:
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:48 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:00 pm
I wasn't seeking to heap hate for a pick made 6 years ago. Your assessment of that pick is spot on also. Heck, Rick even managed to squeeze a draft pick out of Cleveland and still got Kalil. Besides, he also drafted Harrison Smith in that draft. Is anyone upset about that? I'm not.
Oh I know you werent looking to go after him picking Kalil. I just know there are a lot of fans out there that will say "yeah Spielman doesnt know how to draft OL and drafted that bust Kalil". I've seen it many times on here and I always say the same thing that you were just agreeing to
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by S197 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:01 pm

I don't mind the Kalil pick, he didn't pan out but he was the consensus top lineman in the draft. Heck, he moved Tyron Smith over to RT he was so good at USC. #### happens.

Here's my beef. If we acknowledge that there's only a finite number of high draft picks and coaches need to be able to identify players in later rounds, then why do we need to have THREE 1st round corners and an additional 2nd rounder? Why does the logic not apply to this position, especially with Zimmer being as good as he is. Holton Hill didn't get drafted and yet he made the 53 so clearly it's not a case of lack of depth. Why can't we identify a corner in round 4 or 5?

If lineman are less "pro ready" then that puts them at a premium and the few that standout should be valued higher, not lower. I don't think the game has changed so much that it's near impossible to figure out if a Daniels or Hernandez is better than a Gossett or Collins. Nor do I think we should still be playing musical chairs with our line after are entire offseason, training camp, and preseason. We let Edison take all the 1st team reps for that entire time and then cut him. How does THAT reconcile?

I've been a big supporter of Spielman and an even bigger fan of Zimmer but I'm still a believer that they screwed up with the O-line. You don't give a guy $84M GUARANTEED and then dick around with UDFA's and journeymen to protect him. It's ridiculous.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by Minniman » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:30 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:01 pm
Here's my beef. If we acknowledge that there's only a finite number of high draft picks and coaches need to be able to identify players in later rounds, then why do we need to have THREE 1st round corners and an additional 2nd rounder? Why does the logic not apply to this position, especially with Zimmer being as good as he is. Holton Hill didn't get drafted and yet he made the 53 so clearly it's not a case of lack of depth. Why can't we identify a corner in round 4 or 5?
It is BPA in the first two rounds, and quarterback (if needed), cornerback, and left tackle are a premium.

Mackensie Alexander was a reach, but the others were good to go.
I've been a big supporter of Spielman and an even bigger fan of Zimmer but I'm still a believer that they screwed up with the O-line. You don't give a guy $84M GUARANTEED and then dick around with UDFA's and journeymen to protect him. It's ridiculous.
You don't give a guy $84m guaranteed unless he is the second coming of Joe Montana. Regardless, the Vikings have neglected the offensive line for years, and that has been their downfall.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:43 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:01 pm
Here's my beef. If we acknowledge that there's only a finite number of high draft picks and coaches need to be able to identify players in later rounds, then why do we need to have THREE 1st round corners and an additional 2nd rounder? Why does the logic not apply to this position, especially with Zimmer being as good as he is. Holton Hill didn't get drafted and yet he made the 53 so clearly it's not a case of lack of depth. Why can't we identify a corner in round 4 or 5?
Because the only way to stop the quarterbacks in this league is to either sack them or stop the receivers.

Corners can't play in the NFL for long if they don't have the measurables, especially speed. Why can't Terence Newman hang anymore? Because even though he ran a 4.37 at the 2003 combine, he's simply not fast enough at age 40. Fourth- or fifth-round corners don't typically have the physical tools to run with the Julio Joneses of the world.

Holton Hill is an anomaly. Many experts had him as a first-round talent who slipped because of off-field issues.

Outside of quarterback, corners, pass rushers and left tackles are the most important positions in the game. That's why they're drafted high.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by S197 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:00 am

You're using Newman as an example of a corner who can't play for long? There is a handful of guys who can play at 40. Outside of QB? That list gets real short.

Even if you want to say Hill is an anomaly, you can find solid talent in later rounds. AJ Bouye, Josh Norman, Richard Sherman....

Four 1st/2nd round picks is excessive for one position. How much worse would the defense be with Rhodes/Waynes/Alexander this year? Hughes was a luxury pick.

If we absolutely shut down offenses this year then it would be worth it but the rules are so skewed towards offense it seems unlikely. What's more likely is Tom Compton and Colby Gossett aren't going to help us out much. But for some reason that baffles me, one is starting and the other was our weak attempt at addressing a position of great need.

For our sake I hope I'm wrong and you're right.
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 am

I think you can have average O linemen and with reps, can be a serviceable line. Scheme, good qb or rb can make the Oline even better looking. You cannot have average pass rushers or average dbs. The talent has to be there.

Just one man's opinion
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Re: 53 man roster...Cuts and trades

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:32 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:30 am
The NFL is suffering an OL epidemic right now, it isn't just the Vikings. The college game doesn't prepare OL for the NFL game. Spieliman said during the 3rd quarter of the 4th preseason game that right now it takes 2 years (!) before they even know what they have in a guy they take for the OL. When you take that into consideration, it makes sense that they are hesitant to invest early draft capital in the position. Look what happened with Kalil. IMO, this is an area where coaching REALLY matters. If you have a staff that can get these prospects NFL ready quickly, then you have an advantage over other clubs.
So it makes more sense to invest late round picks into our oline instead? The talk of an oline epidemic is silly. Are Dlinemen getting more athletic? Yes. I wouldn't say they are getting bigger however. There are plenty of talented Olinemen that are drafted each season. We have not invested in the position like we should have. All the other excuses that Speilman makes for his horrendous Olinemen draft picks are just that, excuses. 1 miss on Khalil vs. a hit on Loadholt and a hit on McKinney do not even out. The bottom line is you have to invest quality picks at every position. The reason our oline is some trash is because we do not invest enough into the position. Teams that do, do not have that problem.
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