Vikings Draft Picks

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon May 07, 2018 7:38 am

VikingLord wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:02 am
But how do you rate a draft? You give a grade based on the number of guys the GM finds that can step on the field Game 1 of the next season and start? Or even make an immediate impact?

Or do you grade it based on the performance of those players over the life of their rookie contracts and whether they either possess a trade value higher than where they were selected before that contract ends, or they are extended by the team that originally drafted them after they've grown into the starter role?
Everybody has a different answer to this question, but to me, a great draft has elements of both. I don't see that.

There is only one Day 1 starter, and that's the kicker. We all know how Zimmer slow-plays rookie cornerbacks, so Hughes will not start. He'll return kicks, but he won't start at corner. Not this year. He'll be brought along slowly, like Waynes. That's fine. I want him to learn and be really good when he does play. But if we're talking about Day 1 starters, the only one is Carlson ... if he makes the team over Forbath, which isn't a given (although I think it should be).

As for developmental players, I'm reading scouting reports, and I'm seeing significant weaknesses in each. O'Neill should be able to develop into a starter, but everybody else is a crapshoot. That being said, I readily admit that every draft is a crapshoot, so we just have to let it play out.

Trying not to be too negative here. I realize that drafting at 30 is much different than drafting at 10 or higher. When we're forced to rate a draft based almost solely on the long-term potential of the players chosen, it's hard for me to be as enthusiastic. I truly hope that we end up with some good players out of this. As always, I'll wait and see who emerges and root hard for anybody wearing Vikings purple.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Mon May 07, 2018 8:59 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:43 pm
By "let down," do you mean the draft, or the entire offseason?

Because if you ask me, the offseason as a whole has been one of the best I've seen in 50 years as a Vikings fan. Kirk Cousins, Sheldon Richardson, Kendall Wright and Trevor Siemian make a really nice free-agent haul. And John DeFilippo is about the best we could have hoped for in an OC.

The draft -- that's a different story. So many developmental guys. It's going to take a long time to determine whether it was a win. We'll see.
When you take into account Free Agency I agree with Kapp. If Cousins' crashes and burns then the view will change, but there is really no reason to think that will happen.

In one respect it might be worth pointing out that they SHOULD be drafting developmental guys given the state of the roster. However, I agree with SI97 that right now the depth at Guard is probably an issue and one that based on current information feels like it was neglected. However, as I've said previously, the Vikings might have felt that one of their OL projects had come along enough to start. They did that with Easton last year and it mostly panned out. We'll find out in 3 months, until then it's time to go fishing.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Dmizzle0 » Mon May 07, 2018 12:08 pm

I haven't really kept up with the draft because of school. I browsed a few comments so I can observe some reactions. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think the Vikings addressed the OL situation. If our OL is weak I don't think we'll be seeing 4k Cousins. I do like that we drafted a solid CB but I am wondering how you guys generally feel about the Vikings right now and what can we do to make the team better(If they need to)?

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Mon May 07, 2018 1:20 pm

It all comes down to one position. RG. Other than special teams, there was no position where we were likely to draft a starting player in the 2018 draft. I have no objection being dissapointed about the vikings not selecting a RG with potential to start this season. I'm disappointed about it too. I think its likely the Vikings gambled there would be such a player still on the board in the 2nd round at that position and got burned. I also think its possible that the guys they thought might be able to step in and start in 2018 were already off the board, or that those who might be able to either weren't a scheme fit (Hernandez) or perhaps didn't have a very high ceiling (Daniels). That is all conjecture, and even if its accurate it is possible that the Vikings analysis of these players was simply wrong, but we would all pillory them if they ignored their own analysis of the players and it was made public.

If they really got burned, they may be able to address that position via trade or by selecting a good interior lineman who is cut by another team. If the position is as desperate a need as we fans believe, it may be more justifiable to criticize how they handled free agency than how they handled the draft, but, this might be the cost of bringing in Kirk Cousins.

I am curious what generally constitutes a successful draft. How many starters are selected per team on average? How many players who get to a 2nd NFL contract? I'm not sure what the measure is.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by cmoss84 » Mon May 07, 2018 2:05 pm

Is anyone able to look up what the board was saying when we drafted Hunter in the 3rd?
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord » Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:38 am
There is only one Day 1 starter, and that's the kicker. We all know how Zimmer slow-plays rookie cornerbacks, so Hughes will not start.

...

Trying not to be too negative here. I realize that drafting at 30 is much different than drafting at 10 or higher. When we're forced to rate a draft based almost solely on the long-term potential of the players chosen, it's hard for me to be as enthusiastic. I truly hope that we end up with some good players out of this. As always, I'll wait and see who emerges and root hard for anybody wearing Vikings purple.
I understand what you're saying, but look at the teams that enjoy success year after year like the Patriots and Steelers. They draft in the back ends of each round year after year. How many day 1 starters does Belichek snag in a draft? Or Tomlin? Not many, and that's because they don't need to find immediate fixes in the draft and hope they can develop. They find guys who have dropped lower than their value otherwise dictates and are content to develop them. They plug immediate holes in FA and via trade with vets where they have a pro track record to go on.

Like you, I don't know if this draft will end up being good or bad, but I do know that it seems the Vikings may have finally graduated from the school of "oh crap, we need to find immediate starters in this draft if we're going to be successful the following season to "if we find a few immediate contributors that is fantastic, but we're just planting the seeds of the replacement crop of players that will help us in future free agency periods to stay competitive with the rest of the league year after year". As Vikings fans, we are simply not used to being in this position. Like "The Caveman Lawyer" from SNL, we are frightened and confused by this new mode of operation. But I take it as a good sign. No, I take it as a GREAT sign. The team seems to have finally turned a corner. If Spielman and Zimmer feel they have a dire need at at position heading into the season, they'll do what they have to do via trade or further in FA to solve the problem. But the guys they snagged in the draft are going to be given a chance to marinate and develop into reliable starters targeting mainly the seasons beyond next. This is how the great teams draft and evolve, and I for one am really glad that the Vikings are finally in a position to do it and be successful doing it.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Tue May 08, 2018 1:37 am

We had a need to protect our HUGE QB investment. I would say 90% of the so called experts said the same thing. We need a good guard or tackle with our first pick (and imo our second pick). Ones that can play, and protect Cousins from the start of the season. We failed to do that. I am betting it will take O'neil at least a year before he plays tackle, barring a ton of injuries. We also took a CB in Hughes who wasnt a need, or practical. We need the Oline help now. We have the Cbs covered, and if they get injured, we do what every other team does, we fill the void with what we have. I'm not happy with the first 2 picks at all. Maybe Hughes is a stud CB. But that certainly doesnt make him BPA when Hernandez was still available. Rick panicked when Price and Rag got taken early. That should have told him right then to take the next best guard. But he took some troubled CB that maybe will return kicks someday, but isnt the best size of CB, like Rhodes is. And I understand we draft for the future. But the future looks dim if Cousins get hurt, or has no time to throw the ball. Kase was jumping and dodging D lineman ALL season.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord » Wed May 09, 2018 2:54 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:37 am
We had a need to protect our HUGE QB investment. I would say 90% of the so called experts said the same thing. We need a good guard or tackle with our first pick (and imo our second pick). Ones that can play, and protect Cousins from the start of the season. We failed to do that.
What did you expect would be available at #30 in this year's draft to address that gaping hole, if it exists at all?

Maybe Spielman missed on Hernandez. Maybe he starts next year and is a dominant player out of the gate. Odds are that won't happen, but it could. And that still doesn't mean that Cousins is in dire straits next season, or that Spielman/Zimmer can't address whatever dire need there is at guard or offensive tackle in some other way prior to the start of the season.

It is always great to find players that can step onto the field in the season they are drafted and make an immediate impact, but that is just luck for the team that drafted them. That is as good a draft strategy as planning to win a lottery is as a retirement strategy. Hughes was the value choice at #30. His physical talent cannot be questioned. He slipped only because of his off-field concerns, and as good as Hernandez and some of the other OL players were when #30 came around, none of them can put points on the board, or keep them off the board, like Hughes has the potential to do.

Give it a chance. I really think the Vikings are set up incredibly well right now. Not ideal, but so what? If the preseason indicates the Vikings need to make a strong move to shore up the OL, they'll do it. And they'll do it with a vet with a proven NFL track record. No way Spielman lets Cousins go into the season without protecting him. No way that will happen.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed May 09, 2018 9:12 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:23 pm
You kind of proving the point. We didn't have a need at tackle but we had a huge need at guard. We are missing a starter and our other started was easily upgradable. Even if we slide Remmers in, which I prefer because I believe he shouldn't be on an island, That's still a big need at the other guard spot. One that I think is more important than the RT spot. I trust Hill there more than I trust Easton. KR could have been addressed any number of ways in this draft (WR, RB, CB etc). Hughes is a stud. Hernandez is a stud. One of those positions is a glaring weakness the other is nice to have depth in and now we have too much depth.

Again, you say "we didnt have a need for tackle". Says who? If they are adamant about keeping Remmers at RG, then that leaves us Reiff and Hill. And Hill is far from a stud. So saying that we "didnt have a need for tackle" is false IMO. We needed an offensive lineman. Guard or tackle. Someone thats athletic and has versatility. So you're saying there's a "big need" at the RG spot. Not sure why you trust Hill more than Easton given how Hill played at years end. Either way, there isnt much of a difference between Hill and Easton talent wise. It's more about pass blocking for me. Dalvin Cook is a creator. Just like Adrian was. He doesnt need an all world guard to be successful. I'd rather protect Cousins more than anything. Hill struggles badly against speed rushers.

Just to show their difference in athleticism:

40 yard dash
ONeill-4.82
Hill- 5.30

3 cone drill
ONeill- 7.14
Hill- 8.00

20 yard shuttle
ONeill- 4.5
Hill- 4.75

Vert Jump
Oneill- 29.5
Hill- 26

Broad Jump
Oneill- 107
Hill- 105

Oneill also put up 22 reps on the bench, Hill put up.....21. But you trust Hill over Easton. Go re-watch the Philly game or any game at years end and let me know how much you trust Hill


Also, Ive never heard of someone saying "we now have too much depth". Pretty sure that's not a thing
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 » Wed May 09, 2018 3:29 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:54 am
What did you expect would be available at #30 in this year's draft to address that gaping hole, if it exists at all?
James Daniels, Will Hernandez, Braden Smith, Austin Corbett, Connor Williams...

Outside of Price and Ragnow, they basically had their pick of the litter.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by YikesVikes » Wed May 09, 2018 6:46 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:12 am
Again, you say "we didnt have a need for tackle". Says who? If they are adamant about keeping Remmers at RG, then that leaves us Reiff and Hill. And Hill is far from a stud. So saying that we "didnt have a need for tackle" is false IMO. We needed an offensive lineman. Guard or tackle. Someone thats athletic and has versatility. So you're saying there's a "big need" at the RG spot. Not sure why you trust Hill more than Easton given how Hill played at years end. Either way, there isnt much of a difference between Hill and Easton talent wise. It's more about pass blocking for me. Dalvin Cook is a creator. Just like Adrian was. He doesnt need an all world guard to be successful. I'd rather protect Cousins more than anything. Hill struggles badly against speed rushers.

Just to show their difference in athleticism:

40 yard dash
ONeill-4.82
Hill- 5.30

3 cone drill
ONeill- 7.14
Hill- 8.00

20 yard shuttle
ONeill- 4.5
Hill- 4.75

Vert Jump
Oneill- 29.5
Hill- 26

Broad Jump
Oneill- 107
Hill- 105

Oneill also put up 22 reps on the bench, Hill put up.....21. But you trust Hill over Easton. Go re-watch the Philly game or any game at years end and let me know how much you trust Hill


Also, Ive never heard of someone saying "we now have too much depth". Pretty sure that's not a thing

Just to be clear, when I said we didn't need a tackle that was with Remmers at RT. The tackles were picked over, and the Guards were still available. My statement is about selecting a guard because that is what had the highest upside of what was left.

Bench strength is about upper body strength. Blocking on the line uses primarily lower body strength. Not saying Oniell won't be a stud but Even with him, both guard positions in Remmers and Easton should be upgraded.

You really need to watch some cowboys games and see what a good oline looks like. You build a team from the line back. When choosing between a stud CB and a Stud Olineman, I will take lineman every day.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu May 10, 2018 10:47 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Just to be clear, when I said we didn't need a tackle that was with Remmers at RT. The tackles were picked over, and the Guards were still available. My statement is about selecting a guard because that is what had the highest upside of what was left.
And again, it looks like they want Remmers at OG. They felt more comfortable with Remmers at RG and drafting a tackle vs. keeping Remmers at RT and drafting a guard.
Bench strength is about upper body strength. Blocking on the line uses primarily lower body strength. Not saying Oniell won't be a stud but Even with him, both guard positions in Remmers and Easton should be upgraded.
They "could" be upgraded but they also arent hurting our OL. They are decent enough to make this offense successful. Hill was the #68 OT according to PFF this year. If they want Remmers at guard, RT HAS to be upgraded. Remmers and Easton both graded out middle of the road.
You really need to watch some cowboys games and see what a good oline looks like. You build a team from the line back. When choosing between a stud CB and a Stud Olineman, I will take lineman every day.
:lol: at that statement ^. Because the Cowboys have had a ton of success over the last 10 years..... in 2016, they went 13-3 and couldnt get out of the first round of the playoffs. And then followed it up by missing the playoffs last year. And have a good chance to miss the playoffs again this year. So tell me what that "great OL" has done for them? You need a DEFENSE. They dont have one. You dont build a team from your OL up. Have you ever heard "offensive line wins championships"? No. Does your OL have to be solid? Yeah but using the Cowboys is a very poor example. No different than the Raiders that same year. Loaded offensive line and now look. What did they accomplish? Neither team has made it as far as us nor does either team have the talent we currently have on both sides of the ball.

So in the end, if we went heavy on the OL the last few drafts, we'd be missing a ton of key players that makes this team what it currently is. Simple as that
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by jackal » Fri May 11, 2018 4:10 pm

A lot of "experts" seem to think Spielman got some steals in this draft because of the.measurables. I am still very worried about the OL. Maybe one of the guys really steps up and we have an even better OL again?
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord » Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 am

jackal wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:10 pm
A lot of "experts" seem to think Spielman got some steals in this draft because of the.measurables. I am still very worried about the OL. Maybe one of the guys really steps up and we have an even better OL again?
I think if Spielman and Zimmer really thought the offensive line was in dire straits at even one position, they would have addressed it by now in free agency or via a trade. If they thought any of the offensive linemen available at #30 was an immediate fix for an immediate need, they would have drafted him there.

So that tells me the need isn't as great as some fans seem to believe, or that even if it is that great, the draft was the right place to address it.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon May 14, 2018 7:33 am

VikingLord wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 am
I think if Spielman and Zimmer really thought the offensive line was in dire straits at even one position, they would have addressed it by now in free agency or via a trade. If they thought any of the offensive linemen available at #30 was an immediate fix for an immediate need, they would have drafted him there.

So that tells me the need isn't as great as some fans seem to believe, or that even if it is that great, the draft was the right place to address it.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Mothman » Mon May 14, 2018 3:13 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 am
I think if Spielman and Zimmer really thought the offensive line was in dire straits at even one position, they would have addressed it by now in free agency or via a trade.


Considering their history, that's a generous assumption.
If they thought any of the offensive linemen available at #30 was an immediate fix for an immediate need, they would have drafted him there.
That's not exactly a given. Since joining the Vikings, Spielman has never drafted an interior lineman before the third round. He drafted Elflein in R3 last year. Prior to that, he had never drafted an interior lineman for the Vikings before the 4th round. Considering the way he has treated the guard position in particular over the years, I don't think it's a stretch to say that's indicative of his draft philosophy. In other words, even if the need was glaring and a spectacular guard prospect was on the board for him at the end of a first round in an NFL draft, I'm not so sure he'd select that player. His history suggests otherwise.

Of course, there's an argument to be made that his philosophy regarding that position is legitimate but that's not my point.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Slick Rick » Mon May 14, 2018 6:25 pm

Well, we probably weren't going to see a bunch of guys being drafted where everyone was thinking they were going to start - we have a lot of positions that are very adequately filled, and I'd say offensive line is one of the only places where we had any major chance to have drafted someone who was a likely starter. I'm not even 100% sure O'Neill will start, as some have said he is about 298 lbs which is kind of on the light side for a starting offensive lineman in the NFL. Not by much, but he could probably add 10-15 lbs so I'm not sure if that's going to hold him back or not.

I don't think this was out best draft, but I liked the Mike Hughes pick, I understand the O'Neill pick even though I'm not 100% sold on him or anything yet, and it'd be nice to see if Holmes can come in and be impactful as a reserve and eventually maybe earn a starting position like B-Rob did, or like Tom Johnson did.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord » Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:13 pm
Of course, there's an argument to be made that his philosophy regarding that position is legitimate but that's not my point.
I agree Jim - it's not Spielman's style to go with guards early, probably because very few guards are usually taken in the 1st round of most drafts. It is not a position that typically finds a lot of love in the 1st for most GM's.

But still, to suggest that Spielman would see a legit need at a position and have an opportunity to draft a guy who can fill the need is hard to believe based on only a general philosophy or a track record.

I think he had Hughes as a top 15 pick on his board and when he slid to #30, he pounced on him. And yeah, that caused him to miss the ensuing run on OL, including some legit guard prospects, but, as before, if he felt really strongly about any of them and/or the need at the position, he would have traded up to get one.

The real reason I don't think this is nearly as dire as some others believe is because the Vikings went out and broke the bank to get Kirk Cousins. You don't do that and then waltz into the ensuing season with a known, glaring hole along your offensive line. No matter how poorly someone views Spielman or Zimmer, there is simply no way they are going to let that happen given the investment at QB.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Mothman » Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm
I agree Jim - it's not Spielman's style to go with guards early, probably because very few guards are usually taken in the 1st round of most drafts. It is not a position that typically finds a lot of love in the 1st for most GM's.

But still, to suggest that Spielman would see a legit need at a position and have an opportunity to draft a guy who can fill the need is hard to believe based on only a general philosophy or a track record.
Over the years, he's shown a strong willingness to settle for mediocrity or worse at guard so I believe his track record makes a rather compelling case. I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.
I think he had Hughes as a top 15 pick on his board and when he slid to #30, he pounced on him. And yeah, that caused him to miss the ensuing run on OL, including some legit guard prospects, but, as before, if he felt really strongly about any of them and/or the need at the position, he would have traded up to get one.
Perhaps but the point I'm making is how strongly he may have felt about the need or the guard prospects is tied directly to how he views the position in the first place and he doesn't appear to sufficiently value it. In other words, put him in that same situation 10 times and I'm guessing he'd draft other positions every time.
The real reason I don't think this is nearly as dire as some others believe is because the Vikings went out and broke the bank to get Kirk Cousins. You don't do that and then waltz into the ensuing season with a known, glaring hole along your offensive line.

No matter how poorly someone views Spielman or Zimmer, there is simply no way they are going to let that happen given the investment at QB.
Again, I think their history suggests otherwise. It's no more important to protect the big investment in Cousins than it was to provide good protection for his predecessors but we've seen Spielman put makeshift or undermanned lines in front of his QBs throughout his tenure as GM.

Sorry, I just can't give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he's earned it.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:24 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am
I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.
Thats probably true, although it sounds like they were hyped over Ragnow, and I would bet if Quenton Nelson were somehow available at 30, he would have taken him. Its probably not quite so concrete as to make it a rule, but I have no doubt you are correct in terms of Spielman generally believing its a position to be addressed later in the draft.

I don't have time to do it, but I would be very curious to know two things about starters along the interior OL in the NFL. The less interesting question is,

'how many of them were day 1 selections? When did they tend to be drafted? How does that compare to other positions?'

More interestingly: 'how many of them are playing while on their first contract? how does their average age compare to the average starting age at other positions?

I'm playing around with the opinion that its a position which benefits from old man strength more than sudden explosive strength, and that it relies a great deal on consistency and technical proficiency. While you will have your elite young guards, generally speaking I could believe that OL play might peak at a later age than most positions because of both these factors. I could believe that a Joe Berger would have been liable to give the Vikings better (or comparable) production on a 'win now' basis than most of the Guards drafted in the first or second round this year. Just to take a random example, Vlad Ducasse was pretty rough when he was on the Vikings, but at 30 he's still in the league, and he's still starting. That tells you something. Take it for what its worth, but PFF has him ranked as the 24th best G in a league which has 64 starting Guards. Tom Compton could possibly be in that mold. He's 29, and has had several years of experience to hone his physical and technical game. In all likelihood he is not going to be the next Joe Berger for the Vikings, but it is possible that given the chance he would perform better than most of the players selected in the last 2 or 3 drafts, even those who are without doubt more talented.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Cliff » Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am

This combination of coaching staff/front office have done a lot well. Producing a good offensive line hasn't been one of those things so I think questioning their moves is pretty valid. I'm much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when picking a CB ...

There is an argument to be made that when the line was at it's worst the team had been decimated by injury. I wonder if Spielman views that as the reason the line was bad rather than his philosophy.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 8:39 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Just to be clear, when I said we didn't need a tackle that was with Remmers at RT. The tackles were picked over, and the Guards were still available. My statement is about selecting a guard because that is what had the highest upside of what was left.

Bench strength is about upper body strength. Blocking on the line uses primarily lower body strength. Not saying Oniell won't be a stud but Even with him, both guard positions in Remmers and Easton should be upgraded.

You really need to watch some cowboys games and see what a good oline looks like. You build a team from the line back. When choosing between a stud CB and a Stud Olineman, I will take lineman every day.
That fantastic Cowboy's OL hasn't won a playoff game since 2014. FYI. I'd argue you build a team QB first, but that's just like my opinion man.

I would remind everyone hammering on the first round pick that your conclusions are based on the Draft Grades provided by so-called media draft experts. Note that it wasn't just the Vikings who did not pick those guards, so did every other team that passed them up. many of which were playoff teams. This might imply that the grades from the experts were not so great? Don't those guys miss more often than they hit anyways? Might be worth reviewing the foundation of the case being made here. Seems to me like it's a bit soft...
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:43 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am
This combination of coaching staff/front office have done a lot well. Producing a good offensive line hasn't been one of those things so I think questioning their moves is pretty valid. I'm much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when picking a CB ...

There is an argument to be made that when the line was at it's worst the team had been decimated by injury. I wonder if Spielman views that as the reason the line was bad rather than his philosophy.
That's a good point. Even if their philosophy were sound (and it may be) they have not executed well over the years in implementing it. This is to say, they haven't hit on late round picks, and they haven't brought in journeymen who have turned out to be successful with much consistency (although sometimes they have just failed to retain the right players [Remmers the first time, Ducasse, Sullivan (?)]). Last year they got good contributions from one premier FA (Reiff), two journeymen (Remmers, Berger), a mid round pick (Elflein) and a couple players who had spent 3 years or so maturing and developing (Easton, Hill). If I had to choose a player to come out of nowhere and start at RG, I'm going to stick with Josh Andrews. He's 26 and 4 years on the Eagles practice squad is a long time. That's a huge advantage over anybody coming into the NFL, especially if they aren't coming from one of the few programs that prepares OL for the NFL game.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 8:44 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 am
Over the years, he's shown a strong willingness to settle for mediocrity or worse at guard so I believe his track record makes a rather compelling case. I think it's likely we're seeing a specific philosophy at work rather than a general philosophy. A GM who doesn't believe guard is a position worth selecting in the first day or two of the draft probably isn't going to pull the trigger on a guard that early no matter who is available.



Perhaps but the point I'm making is how strongly he may have felt about the need or the guard prospects is tied directly to how he views the position in the first place and he doesn't appear to sufficiently value it. In other words, put him in that same situation 10 times and I'm guessing he'd draft other positions every time.



Again, I think their history suggests otherwise. It's no more important to protect the big investment in Cousins than it was to provide good protection for his predecessors but we've seen Spielman put makeshift or undermanned lines in front of his QBs throughout his tenure as GM.

Sorry, I just can't give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he's earned it.
I'm sorry but did they not just produced a #2 seed team last year? Also, they made significant OL investments going into 2017. I still can't understand all the negativity on this. They got better at both QB and DT this offseason, they probably got a bit worse at OG and now suddenly the sky is falling? Really? let me say that again: They got better at QB!

I understood the skepticism last year they had gone 8-8 and the OL was major culprit. But 2017 wasn't 2016, yet the comments on here sound like we just went 8-8 again.

Did I miss something?
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:44 am


Did I miss something?
Yes, you missed the fact that they haven't had a good offensive line in a decade, and have a very poor track record of addressing the position successfully. The moves they made last year worked relatively well, but even those were born of desperation because of how badly they had addressed the position for years before that.

You are reading the wrong things into the frustration many people have about the way they have handled that position, and their consistent failure to invest meaninfully in it.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue May 15, 2018 11:06 am

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:39 am
That fantastic Cowboy's OL hasn't won a playoff game since 2014. FYI. I'd argue you build a team QB first, but that's just like my opinion man.

I would remind everyone hammering on the first round pick that your conclusions are based on the Draft Grades provided by so-called media draft experts. Note that it wasn't just the Vikings who did not pick those guards, so did every other team that passed them up. many of which were playoff teams. This might imply that the grades from the experts were not so great? Don't those guys miss more often than they hit anyways? Might be worth reviewing the foundation of the case being made here. Seems to me like it's a bit soft...
Exactly. It comes down to fans being ticked over us not drafting Hernandez or Daniels. Again, guard wasnt a glaring hole if they plan on putting Remmers there. That would mean OT has a glaring hole and we addressed it in the 2nd round. Guys gotta get past this whole Hernandez thing. We've never seen the guy play but Spielman was pretty much clueless for not drafting him is how some of us are acting. I'm not worried about the OL. It isnt great, but it's certainly not bad. It's a decent OL IMO with some solid depth.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch » Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am
Yes, you missed the fact that they haven't had a good offensive line in a decade, and have a very poor track record of addressing the position successfully. The moves they made last year worked relatively well, but even those were born of desperation because of how badly they had addressed the position for years before that.

You are reading the wrong things into the frustration many people have about the way they have handled that position, and their consistent failure to invest meaninfully in it.
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by fiestavike » Tue May 15, 2018 12:37 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
I don't think whoever all you are including in 'you guys' are of one mind, or that anyone is saying 'we suck' (or half of the other positions you have attributed to us). To be frank, I think the level of discourse you are offering here is shabby and not worthy of engaging with.

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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue May 15, 2018 1:08 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm
You guys said all this last year and were all predicting another 8 win or worse season. Then the roster started Case Keenum for 15 games and won 12 of those games. So to be blunt, I think you are all out to lunch. All offseason there was a constant drum beat to can Spielman while guys like me and PHP were saying "hey wait a minute, this team could be really good." Turns out we were right.

Now they didn't draft a guard, but signed a legit DT and top 10 starting QB and here we are again back on the "Rick Sucks Bus."
Well, I don't want to ride the bus! How does a GM suck when his team started a back up QB (CASE FREAKING KEENUM?!?!?!) for 15 games and went to the NFC Championship game? Why after a 13 win season are we going to suddenly fall off our rocker because Joe Berger retired? Honestly, why?

This goes hand in hand to my response to the outrage post that cited Dallas as an example of how to built an OL. No one disagrees that Dallas has done a great job building the best OL in the NFL. But my point in response is quite salient to both his rumblings and those that have followed: They haven't won a playoff game behind that OL since 2014. So I have to question the premise. Quite simply: the team with the best OL doesn't win playoff games very often. Why might that be? Could it be roster balance? QB play? The Viking with a worse OL won 13 games last year? How come?

We are returning 4 out of 5 starters on OL, a group that wasn't bad last season. Is losing Joe Berger such a critical loss that now Cousins can't play QB? Is Dalvin Cook going to suddenly be 1/2 the RB he was last year because of losing Joe Berger? Is Adam Thielen going to stop catching passes? Is our Defense going to suddenly fall out of bed and play like Dom Capers is our DC (heh!) because Joe Berger retire?

I know it sounds completely asinine, that is the point, that is absurd position you guys are effectively taking. We have a hole at RG, now we suck. And who got rid of the vomit emoji???
:puke: Its there still :lol: Just to add onto this, not only was it the "lets can Spielman" bus that boarded up last offseason but also the "lets can Zimmer" bus as well if you remember. Yes, the Dallas example is awful and quite honestly, proves nothing. Dont be surprised if Dallas fans are saying "well if we didnt invest so much in our OL, we would have a defense worth a damn". I also remember everyone saying how awful Rick is finding QBs and such and never has a good backup. He gets an amazing backup that nearly led us to the SB and then follows it up this year by landing Cousins and a backup that has started quite a few games in this league. I also remember hearing he "blatantly ignores the OL". Signing two big FAs, spending a 3rd round pick last year and a 2nd this year sure sounds like he ignores the OL alright.

Bottom line is, nobody is ever going to be pleased until we win a SB but I will say that Rick Spielman is a good GM, Mike Zimmer is a good HC and this team is very good. I will not be on this bus either. I have full confidence in this front office, staff and team. It's exciting to be a Vikings fan right now. Enjoy it. Overall, good post mansquatch
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:50 pm

At the end of the day, Spielman's job is tied to Cousins. If Cousins flops, Spielman will be gone. Doesn't matter if that's fair, how he built the roster, etc., that's what will happen. So if Spielman misjudged the strength of the OL and Cousins doesn't have any protection, he's basically sealed his own fate. Conversely, if Cousins performs as he should, no one will care about Hernandez/Daniels in a couple months.

I also don't see a "we suck" attitude, if anything there's criticism but it seems fair with supporting arguments. I've been a relative big fan of Spielman, the post-draft thoughts from prior years are out there for anyone who wants to look them up. And 2016 is shaping up to be a poor draft so he it isn't like he's been stellar year in and year out. Overall I think he's done a good job, a very good job in fact, but I think there's still areas that need to be worked on. One of my biggest gripes about Spielman is he never drafts a backup QB. The last one was John David Booty eons ago. And he followed that MO again this year. It's nice we have Siemian, he's a serviceable backup, but he's also only here for a year and this was by most accounts a very deep QB draft class.

You can probably add placing a low priority on interior lineman to being a similar MO to QB. In essence the two positions have been treated very much the same. When there's an absolute need, we'll draft a guy or splash in free agency, but it's rarely forward looking to me. We should be looking beyond just starters because that's where on occasion you find guys like Kirk Cousins.

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