Vikings Draft Picks

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S197
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 »

I don't think the gripe is we're going to have a bad year because of the draft, this is still a 13-win team that didn't lose many pieces. And the ones we lost, like at QB and DT, we likely upgraded. I think the frustration, at least for me, is the offseason was going so well and we literally had one or two major things we needed to do in the draft and they weren't addressed. To that end, I disagree with this statement:
VikingLord wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 3:53 am The team is already solid, and no matter what anyone wants to believe, there wasn't going to be single player available to the Vikings where they picked that was truly capable of coming in and making a huge difference out of the gate.
I think a guy like Daniels could come in and make a big difference out the gate. He's a great fit for our scheme, has the OL pedigree from a school that churns out solid linemen, and outside of Price was substantially above his peers (at least on paper which is all we can go on right now). Elflein made a big difference last year so I'm not sure why a rookie wouldn't be able to make an impact, especially a 1st round pick.

Lets not forget Elflein is coming off ankle surgery, as is Easton, and our best graded interior lineman retired. That's a lot of question marks.

There's no real point of crying over spilt milk but at this juncture, I'm disappointed. I hope I'm wrong and will obviously fully support the team once the season gets going, it's just hard to understand what the plan was at G and NT.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord »

OK, in regard to your criticism of the Vikings not picking Daniels, I have these questions:

- What criteria would make Daniels the better pick? How he performs next year, or in 4 years compared to O'Neill?
- If Daniels was really that objectively great, how did he fall to #30?
- Isn't it true that the Vikings could still plug any holes at guard, perhaps via a trade or maybe during the cutdown phase of the preseason?
- Lastly, the Vikings just invested a lot of guaranteed money in Kirk Cousins. Do you think that they would have passed on Daniels at #30 had they been convinced he was necessary to protect that investment?

A part of me agrees with you that Daniels made a lot of sense at #30 based on what we know about him coming out of college. I was a little surprised they passed on him to be honest. And Spielman doesn't have a perfect track record in the 1st round. But when #30 came around, I kept thinking that those last 6 quarters of football Zimmer and Spielman watched had to have left a psychological mark, more so than what they saw from the offensive line. Passing on Daniels was a risk, but not an unreasonable one.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 »

We obviously won't know until they hit the field but I think Daniels is the better pick because he is also a great athlete with more polish. Like O'Neill, he needs to get stronger but the athleticism is there, the arm length, explosiveness, etc.

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/james-daniels

compared to

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/brian-oneill

They're similar in many aspects but Daniels has the measurables and the school pedigree to succeed. Not to say O'Neill can't, but you asked what difference I see. As an example, no matter how much you hit the weights, your wingspan isn't getting any wider. #30 is also not that far down for an interior lineman, Elflein fell to the third.

Honestly, I think the Vikings passed because they misread the board. They came out and said they didn't expect the run on guard and it more or less left them on the defensive at the bottom of round 2. If we're talking about need picks, I think O'Neill was a need pick. They needed OL and they took what was left. I seriously doubt he was BPA on their board.

Again, combine numbers aren't everything and it's a bit of an apples/oranges comparison since it's a C/G vs an OT. O'Neill is an intriguing prospect but I'm of the opinion Daniels, and even guys like Hernandez, would have been the right call.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by halfgiz »

Myself I thought it was a little disappointing when they showed the highlights of our new tackle O'Neil. They showed him catching a pass from the QB and taking a handoff from the QB on a running play.
Not the highlights I would expect of a tackle.
Also we have Avanti Collins who is stronger and quicker than O'Neil.

What I also find puzzling is. Shurmur & Flip came from the same team and run basically the same offense.
But Hernandez wasn't a fit for our team....And yet Shurmur is ecstatic getting Hernandez. Who will probably be a 10 year starter for them.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

halfgiz wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 9:15 pm Myself I thought it was a little disappointing when they showed the highlights of our new tackle O'Neil. They showed him catching a pass from the QB and taking a handoff from the QB on a running play.
Not the highlights I would expect of a tackle.
Also we have Avanti Collins who is stronger and quicker than O'Neil.

What I also find puzzling is. Shurmur & Flip came from the same team and run basically the same offense.
But Hernandez wasn't a fit for our team....And yet Shurmur is ecstatic getting Hernandez. Who will probably be a 10 year starter for them.
Again though, that's just us drafting for need. My guess is they had Hughes way higher than either Daniels or Hernandez. And if they go by the book and take BPA, you take Hughes.

Let's not forget the QBs we face this year. Getting Cousins and having Cook back is already gigantic for this offense. We have solid enough guys to plug into these spots. I'm personally a fan of Isidora. I thought he played solid against Baltimore. PFF didnt but from what I saw, especially on some of Murrays big runs, he was able to get to the second level and was a big reason those runs happened. No less, he was playing LG that game. He played right guard in practice the whole year. And played well enough in a spot-start at a position he wasnt even use to. I can see him as a dark horse starting at RG this year.

I was a fan of Rashod Hill but he wore on me as the year went on. He's definitely a solid depth piece but if I was Zim I would do one of two things:

Reiff, Easton, Elflein, Isidora, Remmers

OR

Reiff, Easton, Elflein, Remmers, O'Neill (if he's ready)

I wouldnt even start Hill if it was up to me. Isidora has always been a RG in college and in the NFL. And did well at LG in the one game he started. Also:
He was the 5th highest ranked guard of the PFF draft rankings this year, and had the 2nd best pass-blocking efficiency on 3rd downs of all the guards in the draft. Among the top guard prospects in the draft, Isidora looks pretty good for a 5th round pick across a range of key skills for guards measured by PFF
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

I guess for me, it's about the rating the so-called experts are giving the Vikings on this draft.

While I do wish we'd have addressed our need at guard, I'm not necessarily complaining about who we got. I just don't see this as an A- draft, as many analysts do. Look at last year, when we didn't even have a first-round pick. We drafted three players who started Week 1 -- Cook, Elflein, and Gedeon (in base defense). We drafted Isodora, who has shown potential. Four guys who contributed, three in big ways. This year, we drafted one guy, Hughes, who might contribute this year. They used a draft pick on Carlson, but he still has to beat out Kai Forbath, whom Vikings coaches have a strange love for. O'Neill may have potential, but I don't want him out there until he's truly ready. All we have to do is go back to 2016 when T.J. Clemmings was starting to understand why.

Essentially, we got one guy who will return kicks and add depth at corner this year -- and a bunch of projects. I don't see how that rates any better than a solid C. Average. We didn't fail, but it doesn't appear we drafted above average, either. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by Cliff »

NFL.com draft grades for the NFC North

Snipped the Vikings part of the article but they go over all of the teams.
Colleague Cynthia Frelund, who concocted a model that projects future player performance, identified Hughes as one of the best value picks in Round 1. I don't possess Cynthia's mental capacity, but I do share her appraisal of this selection. Tom Pelissero detailed the off-field issues that led to Hughes leaving the North Carolina football program. If Hughes maintains proper conduct off the field, he's quite an asset on it -- as a physical, ballhawking corner and an explosive return man. With All-Pro Xavier Rhodes locked into one CB slot, Hughes' selection applies pressure on 2016 second-round pick Mackensie Alexander and 2015 first-rounder Trae Waynes. Offensive line is another area that called for attention heading into this draft -- did the Vikes do enough there? O'Neill's a fine athlete at 6-7, 297 pounds, but he has a ways to go on the fundamentals front. Gossett has NFL size, but his game needs to marinate. Moving over to tight end, Conklin caries health concerns, having suffered a Jones fracture in his foot last August. If he can stay healthy, the former Chippewa has potential as a move TE/H-back in new offensive coordinator John DeFilippo's offense (the Trey Burton role).
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by mansquatch »

That analysis is interesting. I had wondered if part of the Hughes pick had to do with the liklihood of him being able to contribute.

On the OL front, I wonder if things are actually as bad as we think they are? I think it is worth noting that this team did survive injuries during the regular season in 17 to Remmers, Elflein, and Easton via their back ups. We lost Berger and Sirles in the offseason, so one depth piece and one starter are gone. Is that enough to completely derail the unit? I'm not so sure. Hill has shown himself to be a quality backup at Tackle. Remmers is capable of moving inside, although to what effect I'm not sure. Is Isidora ready for more playing time? I get that we all wanted a shiny new toy here, but I wonder how much of our angst is due to lingering memories of the Jeff Davidson era and how much is due to a real crisis? Last season was a very good one for our OL, they produced a top Rushing attack and helped Case Keenum have his best NFL season.

Framing it another way:

Comparing 17 and 18, everything on offense is the same except:

RG: Berger vs ???
QB: Keenum vs Cousins
RB: Cook/McKinnon/Muuray vs Cook/Murray
OC: Shurmer vs Defillipo

Analysis: I look at that and Murray is a wash or better in '18. He had a slow starter in 17. Cousins >>> Keenum. Cook > Mckinnon. This is not as stark since Cook did start 4 games for us in 17, but was gone most of the season. I suspect that Shurmer was slightly better at OC than Defillipo, but I'm not sure. I strongly doubt Defillipo is far worse than Shurmer, so I'd rate this a push.

That leaves us with RG. The new RG will likely be worse than Berger. I think that is the most likely outcome. BUT, and this to me is THE question: Is that enough to override the other improvements on Offense to make us an overall worse team? To me that seems like a VERY extreme position to take. I think we'll be better in 2018, possibly much better. It is really ironic that a lot of Vikings fans are underestimating the impact a better QB can have on a team. Maybe we are just used to bad QB play...
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

mansquatch wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 8:47 am I suspect that Shurmer was slightly better at OC than Defillipo, but I'm not sure. I strongly doubt Defillipo is far worse than Shurmer, so I'd rate this a push.
I think that's fair. However, I also think we're going to be pleasantly surprised at what John DeFilippo can do with this offense.

I've watched a bunch of video segments where he breaks down various aspects of the Eagles' offense, and I've come away incredibly impressed. Not just at his knowledge, but at his attention to detail, such as where they teach their quarterbacks to throw the ball on certain types of throws in the red zone, and what certain looks mean on option routes. He not only knows offensive football, he loves teaching it. His enthusiasm is infectious.

Let's not forget, John DeFilippo got more than 4,000 yards passing out of Johnny Manziel and Josh McCown when he was OC in Cleveland, as well as 1,600+ yards rushing out of that same team. I can't wait to see what he does with Kirk Cousins, Dalvin Cook, Stefon Diggs and Adam Thielen.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 »

mansquatch wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 8:47 am That analysis is interesting. I had wondered if part of the Hughes pick had to do with the liklihood of him being able to contribute.

On the OL front, I wonder if things are actually as bad as we think they are? I think it is worth noting that this team did survive injuries during the regular season in 17 to Remmers, Elflein, and Easton via their back ups. We lost Berger and Sirles in the offseason, so one depth piece and one starter are gone. Is that enough to completely derail the unit? I'm not so sure. Hill has shown himself to be a quality backup at Tackle. Remmers is capable of moving inside, although to what effect I'm not sure. Is Isidora ready for more playing time? I get that we all wanted a shiny new toy here, but I wonder how much of our angst is due to lingering memories of the Jeff Davidson era and how much is due to a real crisis? Last season was a very good one for our OL, they produced a top Rushing attack and helped Case Keenum have his best NFL season.

Framing it another way:

Comparing 17 and 18, everything on offense is the same except:

RG: Berger vs ???
QB: Keenum vs Cousins
RB: Cook/McKinnon/Muuray vs Cook/Murray
OC: Shurmer vs Defillipo

Analysis: I look at that and Murray is a wash or better in '18. He had a slow starter in 17. Cousins >>> Keenum. Cook > Mckinnon. This is not as stark since Cook did start 4 games for us in 17, but was gone most of the season. I suspect that Shurmer was slightly better at OC than Defillipo, but I'm not sure. I strongly doubt Defillipo is far worse than Shurmer, so I'd rate this a push.

That leaves us with RG. The new RG will likely be worse than Berger. I think that is the most likely outcome. BUT, and this to me is THE question: Is that enough to override the other improvements on Offense to make us an overall worse team? To me that seems like a VERY extreme position to take. I think we'll be better in 2018, possibly much better. It is really ironic that a lot of Vikings fans are underestimating the impact a better QB can have on a team. Maybe we are just used to bad QB play...
Those are good points but I think we came into the draft knowing we had very little holes to fill. The two I identified was guard and NT. So I guess that's the hardest part about what transpired is we didn't really address either. Not with any meaningful picks anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is we had that list pre-draft and it stayed exactly the same post-draft. In many respects, it's very much analogous to last season. The team had a tremendous year and things looked incredibly promising only for everything to go disastrously wrong at the very end of the stretch. Without trying to sound too hyperbolic, this feels a little like that. It was such an amazing offseason and we just had a little more to go to make it complete. A relative no brainer, grab a day 1 guard and a depth piece at NT. Fill the rest with BPA.

Maybe they're confident in Isidora or Compton (who I'm sure Cousins championed for). I really think we're screwed if Linval goes down but maybe Jaleel makes big strides this year. We've seen teams "win" in the offseason and it not pan out on the field so I'm trying not to put too much stock into everything but right now it definitely feels like a let down. Hopefully camp and preseason changes things for the better.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

S197 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 1:32 pm We've seen teams "win" in the offseason and it not pan out on the field so I'm trying not to put too much stock into everything but right now it definitely feels like a let down. Hopefully camp and preseason changes things for the better.
By "let down," do you mean the draft, or the entire offseason?

Because if you ask me, the offseason as a whole has been one of the best I've seen in 50 years as a Vikings fan. Kirk Cousins, Sheldon Richardson, Kendall Wright and Trevor Siemian make a really nice free-agent haul. And John DeFilippo is about the best we could have hoped for in an OC.

The draft -- that's a different story. So many developmental guys. It's going to take a long time to determine whether it was a win. We'll see.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by S197 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 4:43 pm By "let down," do you mean the draft, or the entire offseason?

Because if you ask me, the offseason as a whole has been one of the best I've seen in 50 years as a Vikings fan. Kirk Cousins, Sheldon Richardson, Kendall Wright and Trevor Siemian make a really nice free-agent haul. And John DeFilippo is about the best we could have hoped for in an OC.

The draft -- that's a different story. So many developmental guys. It's going to take a long time to determine whether it was a win. We'll see.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by VikingLord »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 6:57 am Essentially, we got one guy who will return kicks and add depth at corner this year -- and a bunch of projects. I don't see how that rates any better than a solid C. Average. We didn't fail, but it doesn't appear we drafted above average, either. I hope I'm wrong.
But how do you rate a draft? You give a grade based on the number of guys the GM finds that can step on the field Game 1 of the next season and start? Or even make an immediate impact?

Or do you grade it based on the performance of those players over the life of their rookie contracts and whether they either possess a trade value higher than where they were selected before that contract ends, or they are extended by the team that originally drafted them after they've grown into the starter role?

Yes, Spielman snagged some guys in later rounds who surprised last year and managed to start, but #1, the Vikings got lucky with those picks and their ability to contribute immediately and #2, there just aren't as dire of needs this year compared to last. This is a pretty complete team, especially when compared to their NFC North rivals and the rest of the league.

Maybe S197 is right and Spielman misjudged when the run on OL would happen, thus forcing his hand with O'Neill. But one could also look at it and say that Spielman found a guy he felt could be an immediate difference-maker as a returner and also push for playing time at CB at #30 and had to pull the trigger on him, while he would still have a good shot at getting an OL he wanted. Hughes is the real deal. He only lasted to #30 because of the off-field concerns, but I thought he was easily a top-15 talent.

And I just don't understand the lack of love for O'Neill. The guy is an athletic OL who should excel as a pass blocker. He's not an immediate fix at tackle but then again, the Vikings don't really need an immediate fix at tackle. And they can trot him out as an eligible receiver too in certain short yardage packages and trust him to be a viable receiver. So yeah, maybe he lacks the ideal measurables, which is the main reason he fell to where he did in the 2nd, but I'm not too concerned.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by YikesVikes »

VikingLord wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 3:02 am
And I just don't understand the lack of love for O'Neill. The guy is an athletic OL who should excel as a pass blocker. He's not an immediate fix at tackle but then again, the Vikings don't really need an immediate fix at tackle. And they can trot him out as an eligible receiver too in certain short yardage packages and trust him to be a viable receiver. So yeah, maybe he lacks the ideal measurables, which is the main reason he fell to where he did in the 2nd, but I'm not too concerned.
You kind of proving the point. We didn't have a need at tackle but we had a huge need at guard. We are missing a starter and our other started was easily upgradable. Even if we slide Remmers in, which I prefer because I believe he shouldn't be on an island, That's still a big need at the other guard spot. One that I think is more important than the RT spot. I trust Hill there more than I trust Easton. KR could have been addressed any number of ways in this draft (WR, RB, CB etc). Hughes is a stud. Hernandez is a stud. One of those positions is a glaring weakness the other is nice to have depth in and now we have too much depth.
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Re: Vikings Draft Picks

Post by IIsweet »

We are going to have to move on from some of the superstars very soon. Part of being a great team and developing guys is losing players in FA.
I see us losing Waynes next year. Thus everyone will be saying that We HAVE TO draft a 1st rd CB and start him. Why not already have a guy there? Hughes is an absolute Stud. Better than Waynes, IMO.
This also allows us a chance to keep Barr.
As for OL. We have a decent OL already. Not spectacular, but decent which was a huge upgrade over past years. Isidora is in year 2. Should be much more ready. Adding a tough OG and an athletic OT is great IMO. Are we really counting on a rookie OT in his 1st year ?...
Have to trust them, we see Sunday's and formulate opinions, they see 7 days a week and have the team and its future on their minds.
I see the draft as being proactive, taking BPA, and having players ready to replace Waynes, Hunter, and the idea of potentially moving Reiff to RT and Remmers to OG. Long term success is the priority of the draft.
We've been getting BPA and drafted #30.... Much better than drafting 7!
1 more idea... De Filippo might just be the next Vikings HC.
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