View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:25 am



Reply to topic  [ 479 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 16  Next
 Next years QB 
Author Message
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3304
Post Re: Next years QB
tzinc wrote:
I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated


I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:20 pm
Profile
Transition Player

Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 10:38 am
Posts: 390
Location: Hanover, MN
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:
tzinc wrote:
I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated


I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.

You would have preferred (at the time) to ride it out with Shaun Hill? The Vikings had a very solid team in 2016 that was decimated by injury. It's very easy to say now that it would have been better to not make the trade, but at the time it appeared to be a trade that put us right back into contention. You can't expect a GM to sit on his hands before the season starts, and frankly everyone would have been pissed if he didn't try. It didn't work out, but I'm certainly not faulting him for that.

The argument can be made that they should have signed a better backup before the season started. That I can get behind, and probably falls on Spielman. They clearly had no faith in Hill to carry them more than a game or 2. They learned that lesson it seems, and signing Case last year was clearly a better move.... or they got really lucky. Can't decide :)

_________________
Damian


Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:36 pm
Profile WWW
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3304
Post Re: Next years QB
Dames wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
tzinc wrote:
I hate many of the moves/draft picks Spielman as made but I won't second guess the Bradford move it was the right move just because it didn't work doesn't mean it was the wrong move with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to say.

That Bradford move showed the Vikes they think they are an experienced QB away from a SB.
They will make a move for an experienced QB again:
I would look at Cousins and Foles and maybe Case if they think the year was not a fluke - Bradford is injury prone and Teddy is overrated


I think it was a shortsighted, panic driven mistake...and I generally like Spielman. Not his finest hour in my view.

You would have preferred (at the time) to ride it out with Shaun Hill? The Vikings had a very solid team in 2016 that was decimated by injury. It's very easy to say now that it would have been better to not make the trade, but at the time it appeared to be a trade that put us right back into contention. You can't expect a GM to sit on his hands before the season starts, and frankly everyone would have been pissed if he didn't try. It didn't work out, but I'm certainly not faulting him for that.

The argument can be made that they should have signed a better backup before the season started. That I can get behind, and probably falls on Spielman. They clearly had no faith in Hill to carry them more than a game or 2. They learned that lesson it seems, and signing Case last year was clearly a better move.... or they got really lucky. Can't decide :)


They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:47 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:29 am
Posts: 591
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:28 pm
Profile YIM
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
Thaumaturgist wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.


Very true.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:33 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:

They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.


See this is what I dont understand. First of all, trading for Case?? Case Keenum was about as good as Dan Orlovsky back then. He was a middling backup at best. That's like saying "we should have taken Tom Brady in the 6th round in 2000". Nobody knew Tom Brady was worth a nickel just like nobody knew Case was worth diddly either.

As for McCarron and Garappolo, you think they would cost a 4th?? Not even close. For one, I dont even think the Pats wouldve trade Jimmy G last year. That was the rumored issue in NE this year is that Brady and Kraft wanted Jimmy G gone and Bill didnt. I dont believe that was the case last year. And I can sure tell you that Cincy wouldve wanted more for AJ McCarron.

When Bradford is healthy, he's better than a middle starter IMO. He's just never healthy. Although we say that and he didnt miss a single game in 2016 behind the worst OL ever.

Again, I've said this time and time again: Everyone was ready to give up on Rudy a few years back saying he's injury prone, blah blah blah. And now look? He's been rock solid for quite some time. Fans want to give a guy that nearly lost his leg and hasnt played in two years another chance but say no to Bradford. Hmmmm. But Teddy is a feel good story and "nobody ever really like Sam Bradford". Well Sam Bradford is 20 times the QB Teddy is. I truly feel bad for Bradford because the guy has terrible luck. He was on such a bad team for so long, gets bit with the injury bug, makes it through all of 2016 behind the worst OL in Vikings history and the year everything seems to have gotten fixed, he goes down with a knee issue. He threw 20 TDs and 5 INTs in 2016. He was the LEAST of our problems. If healthy, I believe he couldve done what Case did this year and maybe even a little more.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:45 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3304
Post Re: Next years QB
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote:

They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.


See this is what I dont understand. First of all, trading for Case?? Case Keenum was about as good as Dan Orlovsky back then. He was a middling backup at best. That's like saying "we should have taken Tom Brady in the 6th round in 2000". Nobody knew Tom Brady was worth a nickel just like nobody knew Case was worth diddly either.


I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.

Quote:
As for McCarron and Garappolo, you think they would cost a 4th??


No, I don't think that. Unfortunately, I didn't word my sentence very artfully, but you have got the wrong end of the stick.

Quote:
When Bradford is healthy, he's better than a middle starter IMO. He's just never healthy. Although we say that and he didnt miss a single game in 2016 behind the worst OL ever.


And at least that was worth a 1st and 4th.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:16 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6853
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.

Easy to say after the fact.

And a lot of people would disagree with you regarding Sam Bradford's abilities. Terrible pocket presence? Whatever. The guy had 5 turnstiles blocking for him, and you expect him to somehow be elusive? Look at Case ... he took almost no sacks until the line started going down with injuries. Then he was sacked a lot. Bradford also has more arm talent than almost anybody in the league, and whether you want to admit it or not, he had a good year last year. Especially given the porous nature of his O-line.

The balky knees comment is legitimate. Rick Spielman took a chance on his health. It didn't work out. But that's an entirely separate argument than Bradford's abilities.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:42 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3304
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.

Easy to say after the fact.



easy to say before the fact as well.

*The guy has never known how to step up in the pocket. Case Keenum is a better QB if for that fact alone...and I'm not sold on Case Keenum by a long shot.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:03 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.

Easy to say after the fact.

And a lot of people would disagree with you regarding Sam Bradford's abilities. Terrible pocket presence? Whatever. The guy had 5 turnstiles blocking for him, and you expect him to somehow be elusive? Look at Case ... he took almost no sacks until the line started going down with injuries. Then he was sacked a lot. Bradford also has more arm talent than almost anybody in the league, and whether you want to admit it or not, he had a good year last year. Especially given the porous nature of his O-line.

The balky knees comment is legitimate. Rick Spielman took a chance on his health. It didn't work out. But that's an entirely separate argument than Bradford's abilities.


Agreed 100%. Could you imagine what this forum would have been like if Spielman said, Shaun Hill is our starter for the rest of 2016?? It would be in complete uproar. But yeah since we didnt win a SB with Bradford, it's easy to say, yeah we should have just wasted a year and went with Shaun Hill.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:
I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.


Mortgage the future? This isnt 2009 where we have a bunch of guys near retirement. This team was fairly loaded. We had no first and lost our 2nd round pick in week 4 and made it to the NFC championship this year. That shows you how good of a roster we have. So no, Spielman did not "mortgage the future". And that 4th rounder I'm not worried about by any means. Spielman is known for trading and will get a picks back no problem.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:16 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
Posts: 3304
Post Re: Next years QB
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
I'm pretty certain I actually proposed it before we had Case Keenum on the team or anybody knew he was any good. But, as I said 'for instance'. Feel free to insert any other journeyman who could have been acquired for cheap, Fitzpatrick, Foles, McCown, etc. There was no reason to mortgage the future for a player like Bradford, who was never going to be good enough to get this team over the hump anyway. This is not hindsight. I said it from the start.


Mortgage the future? This isnt 2009 where we have a bunch of guys near retirement. This team was fairly loaded. We had no first and lost our 2nd round pick in week 4 and made it to the NFC championship this year. That shows you how good of a roster we have. So no, Spielman did not "mortgage the future". And that 4th rounder I'm not worried about by any means. Spielman is known for trading and will get a picks back no problem.


Yeah, might as well just give 4th round picks away...And what's a first rounder worth anyway.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:19 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:

Yeah, might as well just give 4th round picks away...And what's a first rounder worth anyway.


I'm starting to think it's near impossible to reason with you. Thats not what I'm saying. You're missing point after point. All picks carry value but bottom line is, we could afford it unlike other teams. Teams that are rebuilding are a lot different than our team was coming off an 11-5 season with just about everyone back.

I'm not saying just toss picks all over the place but you also dont let a season fall apart with no QB. You go out and get one. Not settle for sucking.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:34 pm
Profile
Fenrir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Posts: 10984
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: Next years QB
Thaumaturgist wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.


That's always been my main criticism of Spielman and it predates Teddy by quite a bit. Even when old man Favre was here we had no back up. The good news is we had not one but two really solid backups this year so hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. We should know soon. Otherwise I think he's done a rather good job as GM.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:14 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:23 pm
Posts: 3174
Location: Sebastian, FL
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:

They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.

Trading a 4th for Keenum instead of a 1st and 4th for Bradford. Ummmm let's see. Keenum was the Ram's starting QB for the first 9 games in 2016. What in the world thinks you could have picked him up for a only a 4th round draft pick?

_________________
Vikings fan since Nov. 6, 1966. Annoying Packer fans since Nov. 7, 1966


Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:28 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6853
Post Re: Next years QB
S197 wrote:
Thaumaturgist wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.
IMHO, the real thing that Spielman did wrong, was to not have a viable option behind Teddy. If Shaun Hill wasn't that guy then they should have addressed it way before Bridgewater was injured in the first place.


That's always been my main criticism of Spielman and it predates Teddy by quite a bit. Even when old man Favre was here we had no back up. The good news is we had not one but two really solid backups this year so hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. We should know soon. Otherwise I think he's done a rather good job as GM.

To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:19 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6853
Post Re: Next years QB
fiestavike wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
They would've been better off trading a 4th rounder for Case (for instance) or a guy with some upside (Garapollo, McCarron?) than a 1st and 4th for Bradford, but yes, if it came down to it, I would've gone with Shaun Hill rather than trading valuable draft capital for a middling starter with balky knees and terrible pocket presence.

Easy to say after the fact.



easy to say before the fact as well.

*The guy has never known how to step up in the pocket. Case Keenum is a better QB if for that fact alone...and I'm not sold on Case Keenum by a long shot.

OK, so let me ask.

You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do, so exactly who ARE you sold on?

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:20 pm
Profile
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:35 pm
Posts: 292
Post Re: Next years QB
When the injury happened to Bridgewater, there was not much time to find a replacement. As with a lot of situations when time is of the essence, you sometimes do the best you can and I don't think that Rick had a lot of options. Garoppolo was still left with a year on his rookie deal and they would have wanted even more than we gave for Bradford if they would have even dealt him at all.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:34 pm
Profile
Practice Squad

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:32 am
Posts: 16
Post Re: Next years QB
This is not the year and these are not the guys to break the bank on.

This is one of those weird situations where the evidence tells us to do exactly the opposite of what everyone is suggesting. 3 of the 4 teams in the conference championships had cast off 2nd rate quarterbacks. The logical response to the evidence is to NOT break the bank for a top 10-15ish quarterback and yet that’s what everyone is arguing for.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Profile
Fenrir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Posts: 10984
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?


While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:09 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6853
Post Re: Next years QB
S197 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?


While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.

No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.

What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:59 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37356
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.

What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.


I think Rob Brzezinski deserves the credit for that. Cap management and contracts are literally his job.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:18 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
S197 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?


While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.

No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.

What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.


Agreed 100%. That’s exactly what I believe is that he’s grown into the job. That’s a good way to put it. This is why I say what he did in Miami means nothing. He does an excellent job preparing for the future and also does a great job retaining key players. Outside of maybe Munnerlyn, when was the last time a legit player walked? It’s been a long time if at all since 2012.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
Mothman wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
No argument here. He certainly shares in the blame for our inadequacies in QB depth, although I don't believe he was the sole reason.

What I do think, however, is that he's grown in the job. His track record proves it. Our recent drafts have been very good, and you also have to look at how well we're set up for the salary cap. Spotrac projects us to not only have about $57 million in cap space for 2018, but also $62 million in 2019. Of course, the key is to do something with all that money, but he's been wise in setting us up financially for the future.


I think Rob Brzezinski deserves the credit for that. Cap management and contracts are literally his job.


Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:48 am
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Posts: 8209
Location: Kentucky
Post Re: Next years QB
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together


Do they though? I'm sure Spielman has a little bit of input but I imagine he's a little busy to be dealing with the finer points of creating the contracts. That's not his job. Of course, this is basically guess work for us both since we aren't inside their organization but I'm not sure why you'd think Spielman is very involved in creating contracts. I'd say he approves them, sure.

_________________
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?


I have brought this point up multiple times over the years. It’s a hard argument to win. But I feel the same exact way

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
Cliff wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Well him and Spielman go hand in hand coming up with those contracts. Spielman doesn’t just say “hey Rob send this kid a contract”. They look at future cap and develop the contract together


Do they though? I'm sure Spielman has a little bit of input but I imagine he's a little busy to be dealing with the finer points of creating the contracts. That's not his job. Of course, this is basically guess work for us both since we aren't inside their organization but I'm not sure why you'd think Spielman is very involved in creating contracts. I'd say he approves them, sure.


Well sure I would think. You have to determine how long you want the guy for, what we have for contracts down the road, etc. RB does a lot of the number crunching I’m sure but I highly doubt he just does the entire thing himself. Spielman himself needs to know what contracts will look like down the road and how we will be cap wise in following years. He needs to familiarize himself with that. So again, I can’t imagine he just walks away and says go ahead Rob it’s all yours.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:57 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4909
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Next years QB
J. Kapp 11 wrote:

You're critical of nearly everything the Vikings ever do, so exactly who ARE you sold on?


Im starting to wonder the same thing Kapp. I was just told by him that Latavius Murray would be a 3rd RB or cut by most teams in the nfl. Possibly one of the most outlandish things I’ve ever heard on this board. Maybe he’s been on a bender the past couple days :D

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 am
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Posts: 8209
Location: Kentucky
Post Re: Next years QB
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Well sure I would think. You have to determine how long you want the guy for, what we have for contracts down the road, etc. RB does a lot of the number crunching I’m sure but I highly doubt he just does the entire thing himself. Spielman himself needs to know what contracts will look like down the road and how we will be cap wise in following years. He needs to familiarize himself with that. So again, I can’t imagine he just walks away and says go ahead Rob it’s all yours.


Right, but giving a rough outline (we want X player for X years) and then signing off on something are a far cry from creating it. You could also assume that Spielman might not even have some of these options brought up to him at all with a different guy crunching the numbers.

I guess I'm just looking at it more of giving RB props than detracting from Spielman. As GM he deserves at least some credit for all parts of the team (good or bad) so to some point he deserves credit.

_________________
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson


Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:13 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Candidate
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:23 pm
Posts: 3174
Location: Sebastian, FL
Post Re: Next years QB
S197 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
To be fair, Spielman wasn't the GM in 2009/2010. He was one-third of the infamous Triangle of Authority. He wasn't promoted to GM, with full authority of a GM, until 2012.

That's not to say he didn't have anything to do with player acquisition before then, as he's been VP of Player Personnel since 2006. But he didn't have full authority until 2012. And who knows how decisions were actually made before then?


While that's true, even after he was GM, the trend continued. In 2012 we had Ponder, Joe Webb (who was drafted to be a WR and converted by Chili in training camp), and Bethel McWhatshisface. 2013 was the Josh Freeman and Cassel fiasco. 2014 was when we grabbed Teddy when we were certain Ponder wasn't the answer. And still no viable back up. 2015 was Shaun Hill.

In fact, you have to go back nearly a DECADE to find the last QB we took outside of the 1st round, which were picks out of desperation (Ponder) or necessity (Teddy). John David Booty was the last QB we drafted to be a potential backup. That's excluding Webb for the aforementioned reason. Think about that for a second, arguably the single most important position on the football field and we've never tried to draft a contingency. Because that spans multiple coaches, that seems strongly indicative of having Rick's fingerprints all over it. I really hope we stop relying on the Thigpen, Heinicke, Slotter's of the world to maybe pan out. We should really be drafting guys in the mid or at least late rounds. Especially with the penchant to have as many as 10 picks in a draft.

Drafting a good backup QB is the same as drafting in the first round. You just don't know who is going to be bust and who is going to be good. Can anyone say that when Brady was picked in the 6th round that the Pats thought he would be their QB for 18 years?

_________________
Vikings fan since Nov. 6, 1966. Annoying Packer fans since Nov. 7, 1966


Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 479 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 16  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.