Next years QB

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Raptorman wrote:When talking about Cousins and cap space keep one thing in mind. Between Case, Teddy and Sam, the Vikings had $22.1 million tied up in cap space for those three in 2017.
This is a GREAT point.

Sam's cap number was $18 million, and we got next to nothing out of him. So if we signed Cousins, the extra cap space wouldn't be his full salary. It would effectively be the difference between his salary and Sam's salary. Maybe $10 million. If you sign Cousins, you don't keep both Case and Teddy. You might not even keep both, meaning the backup QB salary might be less than the $4.1 million we paid Case and Teddy.

Even signing Cousins, I'd estimate we'd still be roughly $50 million under the cap, which should be plenty to extend just about anybody we need.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Boon »

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Raptorman wrote:When talking about Cousins and cap space keep one thing in mind. Between Case, Teddy and Sam, the Vikings had $22.1 million tied up in cap space for those three in 2017.
This is a GREAT point.

Sam's cap number was $18 million, and we got next to nothing out of him. So if we signed Cousins, the extra cap space wouldn't be his full salary. It would effectively be the difference between his salary and Sam's salary. Maybe $10 million. If you sign Cousins, you don't keep both Case and Teddy. You might not even keep both, meaning the backup QB salary might be less than the $4.1 million we paid Case and Teddy.

Even signing Cousins, I'd estimate we'd still be roughly $50 million under the cap, which should be plenty to extend just about anybody we need.
Adam schefter posted that we're third in cap space heading into the season at 57 mil. (Browns are tops at a bit over 100 mil, jets are second) and im pretty sure that number wasn't counting any free agents we have. So even if they do sign cousins at 30 mil the cap will still be at 27 mil. I dont know how extensions work, so barr even if extended will make his base salary next year, or does an extension kick in right away?


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Re: Next years QB

Post by JDLon »

In that scenario you're basically putting $30M into your QBs, may as well give Cousins or Brees $30M in that situation.
the difference though is that it is for one year - the year we have an abundance of cap space. No way Cousins signs a team friendly easy to get out of deal after 1 year (or Brees) and it's next year you need the cap space.

If Keenum plays great again sign him long term and trade Bridgewater, the other way around let Keenum walk and keep Bridgewater. Either way we have the cap luxury this year of being able to do it and I suspect that's the way they will go.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Boon wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Raptorman wrote:When talking about Cousins and cap space keep one thing in mind. Between Case, Teddy and Sam, the Vikings had $22.1 million tied up in cap space for those three in 2017.
This is a GREAT point.

Sam's cap number was $18 million, and we got next to nothing out of him. So if we signed Cousins, the extra cap space wouldn't be his full salary. It would effectively be the difference between his salary and Sam's salary. Maybe $10 million. If you sign Cousins, you don't keep both Case and Teddy. You might not even keep both, meaning the backup QB salary might be less than the $4.1 million we paid Case and Teddy.

Even signing Cousins, I'd estimate we'd still be roughly $50 million under the cap, which should be plenty to extend just about anybody we need.
Adam schefter posted that we're third in cap space heading into the season at 57 mil. (Browns are tops at a bit over 100 mil, jets are second) and im pretty sure that number wasn't counting any free agents we have. So even if they do sign cousins at 30 mil the cap will still be at 27 mil. I dont know how extensions work, so barr even if extended will make his base salary next year, or does an extension kick in right away?


https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter ... 92/photo/1
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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Next years QB

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Boon wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Raptorman wrote:When talking about Cousins and cap space keep one thing in mind. Between Case, Teddy and Sam, the Vikings had $22.1 million tied up in cap space for those three in 2017.
This is a GREAT point.

Sam's cap number was $18 million, and we got next to nothing out of him. So if we signed Cousins, the extra cap space wouldn't be his full salary. It would effectively be the difference between his salary and Sam's salary. Maybe $10 million. If you sign Cousins, you don't keep both Case and Teddy. You might not even keep both, meaning the backup QB salary might be less than the $4.1 million we paid Case and Teddy.

Even signing Cousins, I'd estimate we'd still be roughly $50 million under the cap, which should be plenty to extend just about anybody we need.
Adam schefter posted that we're third in cap space heading into the season at 57 mil. (Browns are tops at a bit over 100 mil, jets are second) and im pretty sure that number wasn't counting any free agents we have. So even if they do sign cousins at 30 mil the cap will still be at 27 mil. I dont know how extensions work, so barr even if extended will make his base salary next year, or does an extension kick in right away?


https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter ... 92/photo/1
That's a good question about Barr. The new money in Matt Stafford's extension actually starts next season, even though he signed it in August of 2017. Barr is likely going to be expensive, probably north of $10 million. Luke Kuechly's deal, for example, averages about $12 million. Von Miller's is much higher. Barr is no Von Miller, but he does have "4-time Pro Bowler" on his resume. He's not going to come cheap.

Also, we'd have more than $27 million in 2018 if we sign Cousins. Remember, we lose Bradford's huge contract ($18 million) and you have to count that because there's no way we'd re-sign Bradford. So assuming your $30 million figure, our cap space would still be about $45 million.

The Vikings could front-load a Cousins deal, spread it out, back-load it, or do whatever they need to do to make it work. Stafford's spread-out deal is a good example of what teams often do with quarterbacks. His cap hit increases steadily from $26.5 million to $31.5 million from 2018 to 2020, then drops the last two. The fifth year is not guaranteed -- all bonuses for that year are dependent upon him being on the roster. Rick Spielman is a pretty smart guy. I'm sure he'll make it work for the team.

For what it's worth, the Washington Post now ranks the Vikings as the most likely spot for Cousins, although it's purely speculation. No sources claiming anything.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by soflavike »

I want Case Keenum. He showed plenty of real football skill and leadership. He took us to the NFC Championship game, for cryin' out loud. And that game was a total team loss... not just on him. Yes, he had ups and downs. All QB's do. Roethlisberger and Brady have bad games, too. His arm strength is decent, but not amazing... I get this.

But his accuracy is generally pretty good, and his ability to stay alive in the pocket, under pressure, is very good. He's durable. He takes care of the ball... very low INT ratio. He can run pretty well... roll-outs and scrambles for a first down... that kind of thing. He's calm under pressure and can make plays.

Most importantly, he is a leader and the team rallies around him.

I think we can run with Case and maybe keep Teddy as #2 if the price is right.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

soflavike wrote:I want Case Keenum. He showed plenty of real football skill and leadership. He took us to the NFC Championship game, for cryin' out loud. And that game was a total team loss... not just on him. Yes, he had ups and downs. All QB's do. Roethlisberger and Brady have bad games, too. His arm strength is decent, but not amazing... I get this.

But his accuracy is generally pretty good, and his ability to stay alive in the pocket, under pressure, is very good. He's durable. He takes care of the ball... very low INT ratio. He can run pretty well... roll-outs and scrambles for a first down... that kind of thing. He's calm under pressure and can make plays.

Most importantly, he is a leader and the team rallies around him.

I think we can run with Case and maybe keep Teddy as #2 if the price is right.
That is definitely my second option but if we are going to throw $25 mill at Case, I'd just rather throw $30 at Cousins instead.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Slick Rick »

VikingLord wrote:I'll go out on a limb here and say the only way the Vikes keep Keenum this year is if they franchise him. He had a great season and it's a QB-starved league. Someone will be willing to offer him a multi-year deal with enough up front to ensure he'll take the offer. So for the Vikings to keep him, they'd either have to match that up front or, if they're still not convinced he warrants a multi-year commitment, they're going to have to use the franchise tag on him. And if they did that, and I were his agent, I'd insist that one-year deal include a clause that prevents the Vikings from using the franchise tag on him the following year.

But here's my main problem with that - Keenum wasn't consistent enough to warrant either a long-term deal or the franchise tag. He had issues seeing and hitting open deep receivers, which cost the Vikings scoring opportunities, especially as the season went on. His accuracy was off at times. Some simple throws against Philly were horribly botched at a time when every easy throw had to be made. He had ball security issues that resulted in costly fumbles and interceptions, with the highlight being the duck he lobbed against Philly that resulted in a defensive score for the Eagles.

I'm not saying this was endemic or typified his season. He performed very well at times, but I keep wondering if people aren't looking at Keenum and his performance in relative terms (i.e. this guy was a 3rd-stringer playing under a minimum deal and look what he did!). If you look at him as simple starting QB, he looks less impressive, especially in the playoffs. If you look at him compared to other FA QBs who are looking for longer-term, larger deals and starting gigs, Keenum starts to look much less attractive, at least to me. He just hasn't done it at a high enough level long enough and for enough time for me to be sold that he belongs in the long-term commitment, NFL starting QB conversation.

I feel the same way about Bridgewater, albeit far less certain about his longer term viability as a starting QB (or even a backup, for that matter).

That really leaves the Vikings with a single on-roster option in Bradford, and while I understand the concerns about his knee holding up, he's also the only guy on the roster that is a guy defenses might be actually afraid of given his ability to sling the ball and his consistent mid and deep range accuracy. If Bradford is healthy and has time, he'll do to almost every defense what he did against the Saints to start the season, especially if he has a run/pass option with a healthy Dalvin Cook and he has TE's he trusts can get open and catch the ball.

Cousins would do well with the Vikings too for much the same reason.

Brees would probably make the Vikings Superbowl favorites heading into next season. I just don't see him leaving New Orleans.
I'm going to start off by agreeing with the premise that the only way Keenum comes back is on a multi-year deal or with the franchise tag. It really doesn't seem likely that we'll be able to get him for one year and any less than the franchise tag is worth - that would be pretty damn stupid of Keenum's agent to allow that to happen, so it's not likely. I don't think he can command much more than a Brock Osweiler type of deal where he makes around 15-18M over 3-4 years just because he's only had one good year, and I think that's an avenue that the Vikings should explore just because $23M on the tag is a pretty ridiculous amount of money even if it's non-commital. I'm hoping the Vikings can do something where they have some flexibility, maybe a 4 year deal that's more backloaded and where we won't get stuck paying him for 3.5 years if he poops the bed right away in year one. I'm not an expert on all of that stuff like and how it works, but I know that a lot of deals are structured that way, and a lot of times when extending someone who maybe isn't as effective as they were at the beginning of their contract, teams will restructure it in that way.

Also, I think it's a very strong chance that he does come back - I don't see many other good options out there. Sure, he's inconsistent and he does have some of the issues that you've mentioned, but what available QBs don't have that problem? Also, last year was the first year where he really had extensive weaponry surrounding him - this was the best Vikings offensive line that we've seen in years, probably since 2009 (neither were GREAT, for what it's worth), a really effective running back tandem with Murray and McKinnon, and of course Thielen/Diggs/Rudolph. When he was in Houston, his best receiver was probably still an aging Andre Johnson, I can't really remember what exactly they had, but they were struggling back then and it wasn't just him who was struggling. Finally, when he was in St. Louis it was kind of the same thing, they hadn't taken the step forward with their entire offense yet and they were still in the Jeff Fisher era, going 6-10, 7-9, 8-8, etc, etc, etc.

Bradford coming back just doesn't seem likely because of how poorly he played the last time we saw him on the field. He was totally outclassed by Keenum, who actually took the offense down the field against a scrappy but ultimately not very good Bears defense which makes me wonder if Bradford was even healthy going into this game or if Keenum just straight up outplayed him. I'm not sure how that will work for them, and I'm not even sure if right now you can even say that Bradford is better even if he can complete passes all over the field. Durability is pretty damn important, and Bradford hurts his knee a lot and always has going back to his college days. Also, the way Bradford was brought back for a game and benched for the remainder of the season after his poor play is eerily similar to what happened with Josh Freeman back in that infamous 2013 MNF game against the Giants. Bridgewater I think would be an excellent insurance policy, although it'd have to be a pretty team friendly deal because of how long it's been since he played and the fact that his injury was a pretty significant one. Brees just probably isn't going to happen, it's not like Favre where he said he wanted to play for us for over a year before we ended up snagging him.

In a nutshell: I like Keenum, I think we should bring him back maybe on a 3-4 year deal and while it is a risk, there isn't an option for us on the table right now that doesn't come without a pretty sizeable risk. Bradford, while talented, did not do well for us this year and Keenum took his spot even when he was presumably healthy.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Raptorman »

All I know is this. Any of the QB's we don't sign, will tear up the league next year and make the Vikings look like fools for not signing them. After all, that' the way things work for the "Vikings". :D
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Re: Next years QB

Post by mansquatch »

FWIW, unless the Vikings completely hose up the QB deal or suffer a slew of injuries they will likely enter the season as a top, if not the top NFC team. There are no significant departures on the horizon other than Pat Shurmer and they are getting Dalvin Cook back. They are an obvious pre-season choice to be a top NFC team.

I think our road to the championship next year will be harder than it was this season. We are going to have a first place conference schedule and probably at least 3 prime time games. I do not think we'll get the NFC E as we had them two seasons ago, so probably NFC W and AFC E. Then they'll sprinkle in games vs. other top teams like the Saints and PIT. Might see JAX as well for a "who is the best D?" showdown. I bet we'll play in LA. We won big this past season so they are going to give us tougher matchups in prime time to generate ratings. PHI will have it worse, that is the only consolation.

Stack on top of this that Rogers will likely be playing a 3rd place schedule which will let them feast on lesser opposition. I suspect either DET or CHI will be a surprise team also. One of those new coaches will win some games. 2018 is going to be a rugged season for the Vikings.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Slick Rick »

We'll have a hard schedule, that much is for certain, and we need to get better because I disagree I think we do have some significant departures. While I'm not so worried about the defensive ones like Tom Johnson (most likely will move on or retire) or Terrence Newman (most likely will retire) because I thought those guys had seen better days anyway and the Vikings always seem to come up with good defensive linemen and we have a lot of good cornerbacks ready to go. I'm mostly worried about losing Berger who has been our best offensive lineman for years and also the tandem of Easton and Sirles. I thought offensive line was already the weakest unit on an otherwise very well put together and complete football team, so we definitely have to address that.

If we upgrade offensive line and go from "eh, it's alright" to "damn, that's a pretty good offensive line", I think we will be the favorites in the NFC. I don't think we should care about being favorites or not, but I think we'd go from favorites to win the division to favorites to represent the conference in the SB. Gotta tweak that line and also keeping w/ the topic - gotta sign that QB.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by VikingLord »

Slick Rick wrote: In a nutshell: I like Keenum, I think we should bring him back maybe on a 3-4 year deal and while it is a risk, there isn't an option for us on the table right now that doesn't come without a pretty sizeable risk. Bradford, while talented, did not do well for us this year and Keenum took his spot even when he was presumably healthy.
Good points and I completely understand where you are coming from.

I don't think Bradford was ready when they put him back on the field against the Bears. I think he wanted to play and gut it out, but he just couldn't. So I wouldn't use that game as a reflection of what he can do when healthy. What he can do when healthy is what he did to the Saints in the first game and in many games the prior season after the Vikes traded for him.

The other thing the Vikings need to get done is to find their new offensive coordinator, because that guy is going to dramatically influence this decision on both sides in terms of what the Vikings want in their starting QB and how attractive an offer might be for a potential FA QB like Cousins. Maybe the new OC will be fine with a guy like Keenum knowing what his limitations are, or even a guy like Bridgewater.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Raptorman »

Well without a QB on the roster for next year, Las Vegas has the Vikings at 12/1 odds for winning next years Super Bowl.
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Re: Next years QB

Post by ChicagoViking »

Slick Rick wrote:Bradford coming back just doesn't seem likely because of how poorly he played the last time we saw him on the field. He was totally outclassed by Keenum, who actually took the offense down the field against a scrappy but ultimately not very good Bears defense which makes me wonder if Bradford was even healthy going into this game or if Keenum just straight up outplayed him.
I don't disagree with your ultimate conclusion that it probably makes more sense to sign Keenum given Bradford's history, but I wouldn't base ANYTHING on the Bears game. I was at that game, and Bradford was absolutely not 100% healthy. He was hobbled, slow, and couldn't step into his throws. Easy to outplay a cripple. Vikings' decision will be based on how they think Bradford's health is NOW and the potential for future injury, not how he played in the Bears game while still not fully recovered. If Teddy would give the Vikes a hometown discount to stay on and compete for the starting position with Keenum, I would be perfectly fine going into 2018-19 with Keenum and Teddy battling for the starting position and Sloter in the wings.

Speaking of Sloter, has anything leaked out of the Vikings' camp over the course of the season about how he has looked in practices? I think the fact they protected him at the end of the season with 4 QBs on the roster speaks volumes, but would be nice to hear something concrete about his performance and potential. It would be so much like the Vikings to find a diamond in the rough who turns out to be the next Aaron Rodgers. Err, oh, wait . . . .
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Re: Next years QB

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Our road schedule is probably the toughest schedule I've seen in a long time.

Away:

Bears
Lions
Packers
Eagles
Patriots
Rams
Seahawks
Jets

The only weaker non division opponent is the Jets. We play both SB teams on the road next year. Woof!


Our home schedule is much easier

Home:

Bears
Lions
Packers
Cardinals
Bills
Dolphins
49ers
Saints

Much easier schedule at home. This team is really going to be tested on the road next year
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